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Old 2014-04-16, 19:44   Link #4621
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i think kayaba and kirito are in a equal footing kirito is better at swordmanship while kayaba is better at strategy
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Old 2014-04-16, 21:09   Link #4622
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Spoiler for Sword Skills in UW, incl WEB and probably Vol14 spoiler:
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Old 2014-04-16, 23:21   Link #4623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XFire View Post
It's explicitly mentioned that Kayaba has an overwhelming advantage because he created the game system.



Meanwhile Kirito has almost zero knowledge of <Holy Sword>, because Kayaba (like all players) keeps his abilities secret unless necessary.

And for the use of <Eclipse>, Kirito panicked when he saw the way Kayaba was looking at him.



So Kirito gets freaked out by his eyes and instinctively launches a combo attack. Which both sides immediately realize will end in only one way.

Also, "overwhelmed" means defeated by superior force. Use of that word is the same as saying that Kirito did in fact outfight him.

I've got a copy of the book open right in front of me, so trust me on this. Kayaba lost in the first duel, and cheated to recover it. He won the second because he had created the entire system himself. Both sides acknowledge both these points.

If Kayaba had faced him with pure sword skill, he'd have lost both times.
I'm pretty sure I said this a couple hundred posts ago, but though Kayaba possesses a possible advantage due to being the creator which he did use in the first fight it was not used in the second.

I know Kirito doesn't know <<Holy Sword>>, but since you have a copy you can just see for yourself that Kayaba didn't use any of that in their second fight. If I remember correctly he only used one <<Level 1 Sword Skill>>.

Doesn't that excerp just affirm what I said that Kirito used <<Eclipse>> because he had nothing else?

<<Overwhelmed>> in this case also means something else and that is <<can't keep up>>. Kayaba wasn't blown away by a powerful swing but he couldn't keep up with Kirito's reaction.

Kirito was beaten by the sield in this case, so I think Kayaba actually did <<face him with pure swordsmanship>> unless you don't count <<Sword and Shield>> as a school of swordsmanship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c933103 View Post
Let assume, if we are playing card game, you know what your cards are, and I also know what your cards are, wouldnn't that be an advantage to me?


You definitely have to doublecheck your memory.



Just a few correction: 1.
Spoiler for 1:


and yes, Heathcliff can hack in like them, but the problem now would become, why?
Except in this case I also know your cards, so what's the point?

Spoiler for web:
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Old 2014-04-17, 07:08   Link #4624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
I'm pretty sure I said this a couple hundred posts ago, but though Kayaba possesses a possible advantage due to being the creator which he did use in the first fight it was not used in the second.

I know Kirito doesn't know <<Holy Sword>>, but since you have a copy you can just see for yourself that Kayaba didn't use any of that in their second fight. If I remember correctly he only used one <<Level 1 Sword Skill>>.
How can he fight with only 1 SS? obviously something omitted in the description
Quote:
Doesn't that excerp just affirm what I said that Kirito used <<Eclipse>> because he had nothing else?
..why?
Quote:
<<Overwhelmed>> in this case also means something else and that is <<can't keep up>>. Kayaba wasn't blown away by a powerful swing but he couldn't keep up with Kirito's reaction.
...how overwhelmed = cant keep up?
Quote:
Kirito was beaten by the sield in this case, so I think Kayaba actually did <<face him with pure swordsmanship>> unless you don't count <<Sword and Shield>> as a school of swordsmanship.
with processes before and after neglected?

Quote:
Except in this case I also know your cards, so what's the point?
but it is not the case here, right?
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Old 2014-04-17, 08:38   Link #4625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c933103 View Post
How can he fight with only 1 SS? obviously something omitted in the description

..why?

...how overwhelmed = cant keep up?

with processes before and after neglected?


but it is not the case here, right?
You can go ahead and check that first one.

I totally think that's the case here though I feel like I've repeayed the explanation enough times...
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Old 2014-04-18, 11:50   Link #4626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
I'm pretty sure I said this a couple hundred posts ago, but though Kayaba possesses a possible advantage due to being the creator which he did use in the first fight it was not used in the second.
It was used. That's how he blocked Eclipse. It said that right in the part I quoted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
I know Kirito doesn't know <<Holy Sword>>, but since you have a copy you can just see for yourself that Kayaba didn't use any of that in their second fight. If I remember correctly he only used one <<Level 1 Sword Skill>>.
And I'm telling you that you don't remember correctly. Kayaba designed Dual Blades and knows how one can use it. That doesn't just extend to Skills but basic usage as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
Doesn't that excerp just affirm what I said that Kirito used <<Eclipse>> because he had nothing else?
No. He panicked and used it on reflex. He immediately realizes that it was a mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
<<Overwhelmed>> in this case also means something else and that is <<can't keep up>>. Kayaba wasn't blown away by a powerful swing but he couldn't keep up with Kirito's reaction.
reaction time = speed in this case. Being unable to keep up with someones speed is the same as being defeated by power: they lost because the other person was superior in stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
Kirito was beaten by the shield in this case, so I think Kayaba actually did <<face him with pure swordsmanship>> unless you don't count <<Sword and Shield>> as a school of swordsmanship.
He was beaten because Kayaba knew exactly where each blow was going to land before it happened because he designed the skill. So no, I don't consider that pure swordsmanship.

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Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
Except in this case I also know your cards, so what's the point?
You don't know his cards. We've already finished establishing this. Kirito didn't know anything about Kayaba's Holy Sword beyond what he saw in two or three battles.


So now we've shown you evidence that Kayaba used his advantages as game designer in both fights and provided you with a quote from Kayaba saying that Kirito is stronger. Continuing this argument is ridiculous unless you can provide direct textual evidence to contradict what've said, which is impossible since my evidence came directly from the source.
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Old 2014-04-18, 12:44   Link #4627
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I understood since a while ago that the root of this argument is a difference in what several things mean to us such as what constitutes an advantage or a person's skill.

It appears there's no more point in continuing this since all evidence from either side has been presented and if I continued to answer I would literally just quote my previous posts since I think we've been going around in circles for a while now.

I highly doubt anyone wants to continue aruing with me, but if you feel I need to explain further I'd rather do it elsewhere...
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Old 2014-04-18, 14:43   Link #4628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
I understood since a while ago that the root of this argument is a difference in what several things mean to us such as what constitutes an advantage or a person's skill.

It appears there's no more point in continuing this since all evidence from either side has been presented and if I continued to answer I would literally just quote my previous posts since I think we've been going around in circles for a while now.

I highly doubt anyone wants to continue aruing with me, but if you feel I need to explain further I'd rather do it elsewhere...
If you can explain away the fact that it's called an advantage in the damn narration, I'd love to hear it, because otherwise this translates to "I refuse to admit I'm wrong but can't think of any way to prove it."
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Old 2014-04-18, 23:07   Link #4629
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If that's your issue tn this is simple enough.

In writing we say <<show don't tell>> because it's one thing for characters to say something, and another to show it in their actions.

I've said this before, but Kayaba does have a possible advantage because <<Holy Sword>> as skills that Kirito doesn't know and/or can't deal with. However and again I do not think this possibility was realised because those unknown and/or irregular skills were not even used.

Let's turn it around. What if Kirito actually knew <<Holy Sword>> just as well as Kayaba knows <<Dual Wielding>>? Nothing. It doesn't ammount to anything. Why? Because it was a non-factor. Kayaba still would have blocked all his skills and he still would have countered him during the <<Skill Delay>> or <<Lag>>. If Kirito's hit during the delay then all knowledge he might have about the skill that's about to hit him doesn't matter unless he's Eugeo who cn force himself to move during lag.

That kind of what-if is pointless to begin with. What if Kayaba wasn't the developer? What if Kirito wasn't a <<Beta Tester>>? What if Yuuki was healthy? It's the kind of what-if that breaks the story since everything is a part of that character and you can't take it away because that's what makes them <<them>>. Would you then say that Yuuki was cheating because she had to spend more time diving than Kirito? Would you then say that Kirito was cheating because the people in <<Underworld>> didn't play <<Sword Art Online>>? Neither can we say that Kayaba cheated because he's the developer. At least I wouldn't.

Don't get me wrong. I still don't think Kayaba had a real adantage, but even if he did it's a non-issue.

I'm not saying Kawahara Reki's a bad writer for contradicting himself because characters have to be looked at as people and what people say or think will often no reflect what they do so on this front I could even say that the charaters are more realistic for contradictinthemselves.
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Old 2014-04-18, 23:26   Link #4630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
However and again I do not think this possibility was realised because those unknown and/or irregular skills were not even used.
..........?
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Old 2014-04-19, 13:24   Link #4631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
In writing we say <<show don't tell>> because it's one thing for characters to say something, and another to show it in their actions.
The character didn't say it, the omniscient narrator said it. Which makes it "fact".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
I've said this before, but Kayaba does have a possible advantage because <<Holy Sword>> as skills that Kirito doesn't know and/or can't deal with. However and again I do not think this possibility was realized because those unknown and/or irregular skills were not even used.
He doesn't know his fighting style. As in how he reacts to attacks, how he himself attacks, how he defends. Kayaba, on the other hand, created Dual Blades and knows all of that about Kirito.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
Let's turn it around. What if Kirito actually knew <<Holy Sword>> just as well as Kayaba knows <<Dual Wielding>>? Nothing. It doesn't amount to anything. Why? Because it was a non-factor. Kayaba still would have blocked all his skills and he still would have countered him during the <<Skill Delay>> or <<Lag>>. If Kirito's hit during the delay then all knowledge he might have about the skill that's about to hit him doesn't matter unless he's Eugeo who can force himself to move during lag.
If Kirito knew Holy Sword as well as Kayaba knew Dual Blades he could have predicted Kayabas moves and killed him with superior speed. It has nothing to do with skills, its their actual fighting styles that Kayaba knew about.

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Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
That kind of what-if is pointless to begin with. What if Kayaba wasn't the developer? What if Kirito wasn't a <<Beta Tester>>? What if Yuuki was healthy? It's the kind of what-if that breaks the story since everything is a part of that character and you can't take it away because that's what makes them <<them>>. Would you then say that Yuuki was cheating because she had to spend more time diving than Kirito? Would you then say that Kirito was cheating because the people in <<Underworld>> didn't play <<Sword Art Online>>? Neither can we say that Kayaba cheated because he's the developer. At least I wouldn't.
Yuuki and Kirito both describe themselves as cheating existences who have an unfair advantage over others. But by all means, continue shooting yourself in the foot.

Also, experience is not cheating, if both people had the same starting point. Using the game system to accelerate you beyond the limits of the players, or fighting someone in a game you built, on the other hand, gives you a massive advantage that can't be countered. So yeah, that's cheating.

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Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
Don't get me wrong. I still don't think Kayaba had a real adantage, but even if he did it's a non-issue.
So both characters and the narrator say he has one, and you think he didn't. Gee, wonder which side has more weight here....

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Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
I'm not saying Kawahara Reki's a bad writer for contradicting himself because characters have to be looked at as people and what people say or think will often no reflect what they do so on this front I could even say that the charaters are more realistic for contradicting themselves.
Wow. Just wow. I don't believe I've ever seen someone be quite that arrogant before. You basically said that because what the author wrote about his own characters doesn't match up with your personal view, he's the one mistaken.

I can tell you haven't read this in a while, but this crosses the line between "ignorant" and "foolish".
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Old 2014-04-20, 01:43   Link #4632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XFire View Post
The character didn't say it, the omniscient narrator said it. Which makes it "fact".



He doesn't know his fighting style. As in how he reacts to attacks, how he himself attacks, how he defends. Kayaba, on the other hand, created Dual Blades and knows all of that about Kirito.



If Kirito knew Holy Sword as well as Kayaba knew Dual Blades he could have predicted Kayabas moves and killed him with superior speed. It has nothing to do with skills, its their actual fighting styles that Kayaba knew about.



Yuuki and Kirito both describe themselves as cheating existences who have an unfair advantage over others. But by all means, continue shooting yourself in the foot.

Also, experience is not cheating, if both people had the same starting point. Using the game system to accelerate you beyond the limits of the players, or fighting someone in a game you built, on the other hand, gives you a massive advantage that can't be countered. So yeah, that's cheating.



So both characters and the narrator say he has one, and you think he didn't. Gee, wonder which side has more weight here....



Wow. Just wow. I don't believe I've ever seen someone be quite that arrogant before. You basically said that because what the author wrote about his own characters doesn't match up with your personal view, he's the one mistaken.

I can tell you haven't read this in a while, but this crosses the line between "ignorant" and "foolish".
Whether it's the characters or narrator doesn't matter since it's the same author anyway that wasn't even the point. It doesn't change the part about <<show don't tell>>.

What fighting style? What exactly did Kayaba <<do>>? Your point very much applies in their first fight, but not at all in the second because Kayaba didn't <<do>> anything. What fighting style was there for Kirito to know? That Kayaba would just stand there and block interrupt and counter his skills? He already knew that. It didn't help. What's to know? He knew but he couldn't do anything about it.

What I just said applies again. Kirito would have predicted his <<moves>>? Again what moves exactly? Nothing because Kayaba was just reacting according to what Kirito did.

I already knew Kirito thinks of himself like that, but this is news to me for Yuuki. Not that it matters anyway. Easy enough to say it's <<cheating>> but <<how>>? In what way? The meaning of <<cheating>> becomes too broad. Though what you said next just proves what I said before that there's a fundamental discrepancy in values. I would not fault someone or call them a cheater for playing a game they made. I wonder then why the pro gaming scene isn't dominated by the game developers...probably because them being the creators is a non-factor? hmm

What I said before again applies here. I may be alone in thinking that authors are people whose writing is a product of their own mind rather than a stone tablet descended from heaven. No discussion is necessary if reason can't be applied.

Somehow I thought you wanted to end this a while ago but now it seems you're enjoying it too much. Maybe I am too. I could play the insult game, but as always I strive to be magnanimous.
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Old 2014-04-20, 02:23   Link #4633
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So when Tap gets a cease and desist order from Yenpress,is he going to keep translating the LN's and post it elsewhere that YenPress's License can't touch?
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Old 2014-04-20, 07:49   Link #4634
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Is he still going? That's hardcore. I hope they don't find him...
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Old 2014-04-20, 10:32   Link #4635
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Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
Whether it's the characters or narrator doesn't matter since it's the same author anyway that wasn't even the point. It doesn't change the part about <<show don't tell>>.
The "omniscient" narrator. Look it up. By definition anything said by a third person omniscient narrator is considered fact in-universe. It's a literary technique nearly as old as writing. If an omniscient narrator tells you something, it counts as showing.

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Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
What fighting style? What exactly did Kayaba <<do>>? Your point very much applies in their first fight, but not at all in the second because Kayaba didn't <<do>> anything. What fighting style was there for Kirito to know? That Kayaba would just stand there and block interrupt and counter his skills? He already knew that. It didn't help. What's to know? He knew but he couldn't do anything about it.
You do realize that Kayaba fought back, right? He did in fact swing his sword at Kirito during their duel to the death. He did in fact launch several attacks of his own during the fight. And while Kayaba knew exactly how one would use Dual Blades to launch attacks, Kirito was not aware of how Holy Sword could be used in a fight.

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Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
What I just said applies again. Kirito would have predicted his <<moves>>? Again what moves exactly? Nothing because Kayaba was just reacting according to what Kirito did.
Really? You think Kayaba just stood there the entire time hiding behind his shield? They were both attacking each other. If Kirito knew how Kayaba would move during his attacks, how he would chain defense and attack together, he could have found openings.

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Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
I already knew Kirito thinks of himself like that, but this is news to me for Yuuki. Not that it matters anyway. Easy enough to say it's <<cheating>> but <<how>>? In what way? The meaning of <<cheating>> becomes too broad. Though what you said next just proves what I said before that there's a fundamental discrepancy in values. I would not fault someone or call them a cheater for playing a game they made. I wonder then why the pro gaming scene isn't dominated by the game developers...probably because them being the creators is a non-factor? hmm
They are cheating because they possess an advantage that other players can't obtain regardless of how they play.

And Kayaba is cheating for the same reason. He created the system Kirito is using to attack him. He knows exactly how fast Kirito can move, how he can launch attacks, how he can dodge. This metaphor was used before, but its like being able to see all of his opponents cards, while his are still hidden.

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Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
What I said before again applies here. I may be alone in thinking that authors are people whose writing is a product of their own mind rather than a stone tablet descended from heaven. No discussion is necessary if reason can't be applied.
Writing is open to interpretation, yes. But if a writer says "this person turned left here" and you say "I think he turned right instead" because it fits how you want the story to play out, you're the one being unreasonable.

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Somehow I thought you wanted to end this a while ago but now it seems you're enjoying it too much. Maybe I am too. I could play the insult game, but as always I strive to be magnanimous.
You admitted you don't have access to a copy. I've got one open right in front of me. I tell you that Kayaba, Kirito, the narrator, and the author describe Kirito as being a better fighter, and you respond with "Nope, that doesn't fit my viewpoint so its wrong". Magnanimous is not the word I'd choose to describe you right now.
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Old 2014-04-20, 11:42   Link #4636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gensouR-1 View Post
So when Tap gets a cease and desist order from Yenpress,is he going to keep translating the LN's and post it elsewhere that YenPress's License can't touch?
He says he'll stop as soon as he receives a C&D. Don't know if he was lying, and would just start back up elsewhere, though.
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Old 2014-04-20, 22:12   Link #4637
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
The "omniscient" narrator. Look it up. By definition anything said by a third person omniscient narrator is considered fact in-universe. It's a literary technique nearly as old as writing. If an omniscient narrator tells you something, it counts as showing.



You do realize that Kayaba fought back, right? He did in fact swing his sword at Kirito during their duel to the death. He did in fact launch several attacks of his own during the fight. And while Kayaba knew exactly how one would use Dual Blades to launch attacks, Kirito was not aware of how Holy Sword could be used in a fight.



Really? You think Kayaba just stood there the entire time hiding behind his shield? They were both attacking each other. If Kirito knew how Kayaba would move during his attacks, how he would chain defense and attack together, he could have found openings.



They are cheating because they possess an advantage that other players can't obtain regardless of how they play.

And Kayaba is cheating for the same reason. He created the system Kirito is using to attack him. He knows exactly how fast Kirito can move, how he can launch attacks, how he can dodge. This metaphor was used before, but its like being able to see all of his opponents cards, while his are still hidden.



Writing is open to interpretation, yes. But if a writer says "this person turned left here" and you say "I think he turned right instead" because it fits how you want the story to play out, you're the one being unreasonable.



You admitted you don't have access to a copy. I've got one open right in front of me. I tell you that Kayaba, Kirito, the narrator, and the author describe Kirito as being a better fighter, and you respond with "Nope, that doesn't fit my viewpoint so its wrong". Magnanimous is not the word I'd choose to describe you right now.
Okay I started to question my memory so I have a copy now. Somehow there are a lot of holes in my memory like how I remember <<Eclipse>> was 75 hits but it's actually 27 how did that happen...

I should have just gotten a copy from the beginning, but at least now is the real final battle.

I know what a narrator is, but do you know what a handwave is? It's when author's don't address an inconsistency in what they've written. If you saw my first post in this argument which was before you joined my whole premise is that there was an inconsistency in Kirito and Kayaba's portrayal from the first to second fight.

In this case what's being handwaved is called an informed trait which is when we're told that a character is something, but what they actually do in the story contradicts or just doesn't show that.

I now see that Kayaba actually attacked, and I also see why I didn't remember...but anyway if I only re-read up to that part I'd say there's a fundamental problem in my argument though unexpectedly reading the rest of the fight I'm even more convinced of myself.

This is the page just after the illustration and we see that Kirito is actually not using <<Dual Wielding>> so at this point in the fight Kayaba supposedly shouldn't be able to predict Kirito's skills but in the end...there was no difference. What was it about Kayaba knowing exactly where the sword would be because he designed all the skills, but here Kirito isn't using them and literally everything was blocked.
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Old 2014-04-20, 22:27   Link #4638
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Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
Okay I started to question my memory so I have a copy now. Somehow there are a lot of holes in my memory like how I remember <<Eclipse>> was 75 hits but it's actually 27 how did that happen...

I should have just gotten a copy from the beginning, but at least now is the real final battle.

I know what a narrator is, but do you know what a handwave is? It's when author's don't address an inconsistency in what they've written. If you saw my first post in this argument which was before you joined my whole premise is that there was an inconsistency in Kirito and Kayaba's portrayal from the first to second fight.

In this case what's being handwaved is called an informed trait which is when we're told that a character is something, but what they actually do in the story contradicts or just doesn't show that.

I now see that Kayaba actually attacked, and I also see why I didn't remember...but anyway if I only re-read up to that part I'd say there's a fundamental problem in my argument though unexpectedly reading the rest of the fight I'm even more convinced of myself.

This is the page just after the illustration and we see that Kirito is actually not using <<Dual Wielding>> so at this point in the fight Kayaba supposedly shouldn't be able to predict Kirito's skills but in the end...there was no difference. What was it about Kayaba knowing exactly where the sword would be because he designed all the skills, but here Kirito isn't using them and literally everything was blocked.
First, a handwave is when an author just brushes something off. Like for example, "why can't anyone else just pick up a second sword to use?" "The system will stop them." Basically like handrails to keep the story inside the line. What you're talking about is a plot hole.

Kirito would have one the first fight if Kayaba hadn't used Over-Assist, and he would have won the second if he hadn't used a skill. This is in no way inconsistent with saying Kirito is stronger. Ergo, there is no plothole.

And for the fourth time (third? fifth?), I'm not talking about the skills. I'm talking about how Kiritos avatar can move when using Dual Blades. Kayaba designed the system Kirito is using to move, and can thus predict it.
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Old 2014-04-20, 23:02   Link #4639
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Oh this is what I was waiting for ofcourse <<Kirito vs Eugeo>>! I just noticed now...

Eugeo more than lived up to my expectations...which makes his fate all the more frustrating...

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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
First, a handwave is when an author just brushes something off. Like for example, "why can't anyone else just pick up a second sword to use?" "The system will stop them." Basically like handrails to keep the story inside the line. What you're talking about is a plot hole.

Kirito would have one the first fight if Kayaba hadn't used Over-Assist, and he would have won the second if he hadn't used a skill. This is in no way inconsistent with saying Kirito is stronger. Ergo, there is no plothole.

And for the fourth time (third? fifth?), I'm not talking about the skills. I'm talking about how Kiritos avatar can move when using Dual Blades. Kayaba designed the system Kirito is using to move, and can thus predict it.
The only consequence of a plot hole is either a handwave or a retcon. No retcon so handwave.

It could also be that Kawahara Reki isn't aware, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he just ignored it. That's okay: someone on the internet will solve it.

So it seems you either actually didn't see the post I was talking or didn't understand it. What Insaid back then was that Kirito was clearly portrayed as strongest in the first fight, but the inconsistency happened in the second and on this point in particular is where we've been.

Kirito can move however he wants unless he uses a <<Sword Skill>> Kayaba won't until Kirito actually moves. There's no indication that Kayaba's a newtype and Kirito was using his own skills and senses.
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Old 2014-04-21, 01:22   Link #4640
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Masuzu View Post
Oh this is what I was waiting for ofcourse <<Kirito vs Eugeo>>! I just noticed now...

Eugeo more than lived up to my expectations...which makes his fate all the more frustrating...

The only consequence of a plot hole is either a handwave or a retcon. No retcon so handwave.

It could also be that Kawahara Reki isn't aware, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he just ignored it. That's okay: someone on the internet will solve it.

So it seems you either actually didn't see the post I was talking or didn't understand it. What I said back then was that Kirito was clearly portrayed as strongest in the first fight, but the inconsistency happened in the second and on this point in particular is where we've been.

Kirito can move however he wants unless he uses a <<Sword Skill>> Kayaba won't until Kirito actually moves. There's no indication that Kayaba's a newtype and Kirito was using his own skills and senses.
And again you're assuming that what you think somehow trumps the authors word. It doesn't, so grow up and move on.

A plothole is anything that doesn't make sense in the plot as according to the rules. A handwave is something that is poorly explained but still considered "correct". They aren't the same thing. What you described was a plot hole resulting from a contradiction in the story. Which did not happen in the first place.

And where are you getting the idea that Kayaba was completely passive during this fight. Both of them were trying to kill each other, it's ridiculous to assume that he was just standing there blocking the whole time.

And Kirito moves inside the system that Kayaba created. The fact that he had to equip Dual Blades as a skill means that the system changes in accordance to the style in use. Kayaba built that style into the system, so he knows everything about it.

You don't seem to be understanding this here, so I'll go ahead and lay it out for you.
  • Kayaba would have lost the first fight w/o Over-Assist
  • He only won the second fight due to knowledge of Dual Blades
  • Kirito has no equivalent to that knowledge nor is there any way to create one
  • The knowledge of Dual Blades is called an immense advantage within the narration
  • Kirito is described as the superior fighter by both fighters afterwords
  • Kirito is described as being stronger within the narration
  • Kirito is said to be stronger by the author himself

Kirito is the superior fighter. The author wrote the story, so he has final say on who is "stronger" inside his universe. He has written the story supporting that conclusion. All of the characters take the conclusion as fact.

So unless you find something in the novel or webnovel that says Kayaba was better, we're done here.
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