(L) Kokoro Connect [anime]

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And normally, why should they? Emotions just are. We don't decide to have them. It's our responsibility to control ourselves so we don't brain people with golf trophies, but mere thoughts and emotions shouldn't be a crime.

Once again, it's notable that your interpretation undervalues emotion as an element of the self, placing importance mainly on the cognitive aspect. Perhaps people don't like to acknowledge the role of emotion in identity formation, that it is better left suppressed and denied.

I'm not calling it a crime or a fault to express hidden emotions, but I don't like it when people set aside "emotional outbursts" as distinct from the idea of the self. I look at such measures as just another form of rationalization. An emotional outburst is simply another expression of the self just like some impartial decision you have to make one time or another.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

But it does annoy me how blind to her suffering he seems, especially compared to his sensitivity to Yui's and Iori's.

(But then, I'm probably biased myself.)

It doesn't annoy me, but certainly it's evident how he seems to be insensitive only toward her.
On the other hand Taichi reacts only on what he sees, never on a deeper level. In that he is consistent. He is a shallow white knight. And Inaba is quite a master in hiding herself. Well, not truly, but it is assumed that she is.

[Midonin]

I'm not sure if the term "white knight" is fully accurate here. In internet slang, doesn't it also carry the connotation that whoever's doing the rescuing is doing so for some sort of reward? As far as I can tell, Taichi's doing it just to make people happy, not even expecting to be thanked. There's no ulterior motive here - like these stories tend to go, the closer friendships he's getting with the girls around him (mostly) seem to happen by accident. He may fit the first part of the definition, but I've yet to see any evidence he fits the second.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Midonin

I'm not sure if the term "white knight" is fully accurate here. In internet slang, doesn't it also carry the connotation that whoever's doing the rescuing is doing so for some sort of reward? As far as I can tell, Taichi's doing it just to make people happy, not even expecting to be thanked. There's no ulterior motive here - like these stories tend to go, the closer friendships he's getting with the girls around him (mostly) seem to happen by accident. He may fit the first part of the definition, but I've yet to see any evidence he fits the second.

What the anime said about this in the last arc was that his "reward" is to not have to bear the "burden" of other people's unhappiness; that in fact, there's nothing altruistic about it, but it's entirely selfish. He'd rather die than bearing the burden of seeing someone else die, even if his own death would cause pain to others (including the one who he'd saved). But I suppose you could argue, by the same token, that this means that nothing is really truly "altruistic" in the world, and indeed that is perhaps part of what the anime is trying to convey through this story.

[Midonin]

Though from my perspective, making someone happier is a net reward for both the person benefiting from it and the person acting on it. The whole utilitarian thing. I can see how it's selfish, but I don't fully agree with that assessment. I think this is about as far as I can take the debate, but I stand by what I've said for the past several episodes. I agree with Taichi's general philosophy.

[Sphire]

Originally Posted by Arya

It doesn't annoy me, but certainly it's evident how he seems to be insensitive only toward her.
On the other hand Taichi reacts only on what he sees, never on a deeper level. In that he is consistent. He is a shallow white knight. And Inaba is quite a master in hiding herself. Well, not truly, but it is assumed that she is.

I don't remember fully, but didn't Inaba point out that Yui and Iori had issues to Taichi? Only then did he start white-knighting them. And since she ain't gonna tell him about herself, well, it's gonna be harder for him. I too feel he's looking more like a shallow white knight now.

But as for these outbursts, it's hard to analyse them (for me at least), since I feel part of it is becoming people inputting their own standards onto others. Like how Inaba got mad at Yui for doing what she basically wanted to do too (but was forcing herself not to), and how Taichi's comments to Inaba sound like something he feels towards himself. Their outbursts are reflecting how they treat themselves.

[Arya]

Extending a bit my previous post, I add that what they think during the outburst is important. But is more important the way they think. What's the logic, or non-logic, that feeds their chain of thoughts and the final outcome. On a similar trigger, Inaban seems to have a controlled flow. Taichi instead seems to have an explosive flow, i.e. it's impossible to estimate where he can go once triggered.

[Klashikari]

There is a huge difference with Himeko and Taichi.
Taichi more or less expect people to indefinitely help each other. Whereas it is the right thing to do for every occasions is up to debate.
If you dig it deeper, Taichi has specific expectations for Himeko, since he basically alienated her image as the "club leader", so he expects her to take the best course of action for everyone, but he didn't take into account her feelings and insecurity, which first helped her to stick with the group (the whole "can't trust people" part), but completely backfired at him now.

Himeko has put a very different input: she didn't order Yui to act like her, but brought the facts: if she "screws" around, it will endanger the group. Himeko admitted already that she had the same idea, but she actually did the opposite, since she realized that "her standard" would basically screw everyone.
That point drove her in a corner, even moreso now that Taichi dropped the "you disappoint me" bomb on her, despite she really didn't think of being any good after unleashing against Yui.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Sphire

I don't remember fully, but didn't Inaba point out that Yui and Iori had issues to Taichi? Only then did he start white-knighting them. And since she ain't gonna tell him about herself, well, it's gonna be harder for him. I too feel he's looking more like a shallow white knight now.

Yes, that's true for Iori, Yui issues has been pointed out by Aoki, but fully explained by Inaba IIRC.

@Midonin: Ok. Let's call him the shallow knight, it's more fitting

[Snuffle]

I'm only now just noticing everyone here is only focusing on Taichi. We know he has a white knight syndrome (at least that's what we're assuming) that causes him to act the way he does. But why does Inaba have a trust issue?

Just like how we all want to know, "what is causing Taichi to act this way?" we should also be questioning, "why does Inaba have a trust issue?"

Now there are signs that Inaba is trying to change her way of thinking but how deep does that change really go? Is it only to the point of being able to socialize with others but at the same time not trust them? Or is she trying to break down her wall she has up and believe people don't want to hurt her?

If that is the case, then Taichi really screwed up with her progress. Inaba knows that he has an addiction to helping people, but it's possible she just learned due to Taichi's outburst that not even the white knight can help her with her troubles which could lead her to believe she is beyond help. I'm sure my analysis is pretty far out there though.

[Shimapan]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Taichi didn't apologize because an apology would have actually been insulting to Inaba's intelligence.

What kind of bs is that?
Apologising certainly *doesn't* insult anyone's intelligence. If anything, *not* apologising is showing a *lack* of intellingence, or at the very least, a lack of manners and being insensitive and rude.

Originally Posted by Arya

What Inaban said, analyzing it out of grimmick's context, is something reasonable, right, as I said, flawless. In another situation, without the grimmick in action, if Inaba had explained the same identical thing with the same identical words the outcome probably would have been different.

Indeed, what Inaban said wais completely sound and logical and really made sense. It was just that time and place was unfortunate to address this, especially in front of the already instable Yui, but there was nothing wrong with her reasoning.

Originally Posted by Arya

Taichi's on the contrary wasn't. What he imputed to her is quite questionable, if not totally wrong, because first she wasn't giving up on Yui, and second his conclusion ended being harshly judgmental on Inaban as a person.

Taichis assumptions of Inaban not caring about Yui were downright wrong. It was just that his mind was so hazy from his warped expectations that he simply couldn't think clearly and pretty much just yelled at Inaban about why she didn't live up to his warped expectations, using crude language and all that. Looks like deep inside, Taichi is harshly judgemental about others, and this side of him was exposed now.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

What the anime said about this in the last arc was that his "reward" is to not have to bear the "burden" of other people's unhappiness; that in fact, there's nothing altruistic about it, but it's entirely selfish. He'd rather die than bearing the burden of seeing someone else die, even if his own death would cause pain to others (including the one who he'd saved).

That's quite possible. What I'm thinking more and more is that it's not altruistic at all because he's just trying to ease his guilty conscience about former misbehaviour or misdeeds of his, which overspilt a border at a certain point, throwing him into deep remorse and self-hate, having him now desperately trying to make up for it.
Perhaps he was a rather mean person a while back, before his change, and part of this mean personality was resurfacing now and unleashed, making him yell at Inaban crudely, and also keeping him from apologizing afterwards.

[Sphire]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

There is a huge difference with Himeko and Taichi.

Himeko has put a very different input: she didn't order Yui to act like her, but brought the facts: if she "screws" around, it will endanger the group. Himeko admitted already that she would do the same, but she actually did the opposite, since she realized that "her standard" would basically screw everyone.
That point drove her in a corner, even moreso now that Taichi dropped the "you disappoint me" bomb on her, despite she really didn't think of being any good after unleashing against Yui.

Eh, I see it differently. She basically did order Yui to act like her. She even said 'Take some responsibility' straight to her face. She's telling Yui to be more like herself; the one who keeps things bottled up, puts on a brave face and is taking responsibility. We don't know when exactly Inaba's outburst trigger was set (like we do with Taichi), but you could imagine a similar instance of her thinking to herself 'That's no excuse' like how Taichi thought to himself before his outburst. And it would still fit her response.

The main differnece being Taichi has been portrayed rather one dimensional so far. The Good Guy vibe. Inaba on the other hand is a bit more complex. She's supposedly battling some internal trust issues on a daily basis, whilst putting up a brave face. So Taichi told Inaba to act like a good guy, while Inaba told Yui to put up a brave face in-spite of her problems. In that way I see both outbursts as similar, and so is more a cry of how they tell themselves to act rather than them actually being mad at their friends. Their feelings are true, but more towards themselves.

But of course, I'm assuming things here. Inaba being the more complex person, realises her outburst was wrong (or at least, not helpful), and feels depressed that she too might not be able to put on a brave face anymore (the outbursts are taking away her controls). Taichi, being more shallow, doesn't give a damn about the things he said... (okay that may be a bit harsh on Taichi, though it fits in with how he said all those things to Iori about knowing her personality and then proceeding to be so easily fooled).

[Lantern]

Originally Posted by Snuffle

"why does Inaba have a trust issue?"

Now there are signs that Inaba is trying to change her way of thinking but how deep does that change really go? Is it only to the point of being able to socialize with others but at the same time not trust them? Or is she trying to break down her wall she has up and believe people don't want to hurt her?

If that is the case, then Taichi really screwed up with her progress. Inaba knows that he has an addiction to helping people, but it's possible she just learned due to Taichi's outburst that not even the white knight can help her with her troubles which could lead her to believe she is beyond help. I'm sure my analysis is pretty far out there though.

Like she said, she's born with it. I know how that feels cause it's like an instinctive thing, some people just can't help but to have second thoughts about trusting. Especially since Inaba is the type that thinks about everything at every angle.

And she indeed does try to trust people. In episode 4 we already know that she wants to trust her friends and hates herself for doubting them. As I said way back, the only person she doesn't trust is herself as she doesn't want to accept this "despicable" side of her. Taichi in episode 4 managed to nudge her a little towards the right direction by convincing her that they will accept her, so she can try and accept herself.

Finally, you're entirely right about this outburst incident that Taichi basically reset her progress back to point zero, or possibly worse, as it exposes once again everything Inaba hates about herself. The fact that she feels that she has betrayed/let her friends down doesn't help.

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Snuffle

I'm only now just noticing everyone here is only focusing on Taichi. We know he has a white knight syndrome (at least that's what we're assuming) that causes him to act the way he does. But why does Inaba have a trust issue?

Just like how we all want to know, "what is causing Taichi to act this way?" we should also be questioning, "why does Inaba have a trust issue?"

Now there are signs that Inaba is trying to change her way of thinking but how deep does that change really go? Is it only to the point of being able to socialize with others but at the same time not trust them? Or is she trying to break down her wall she has up and believe people don't want to hurt her?

That thing with Himeko's problem is that it isn't really a problem. It's quite natural not to trust a group of friends with your life, especially if you've only known each other for a few months tops. Her issue is actually quite normal, if not over-the-top thanks to present circumstances. It's all very distressing I'm sure, but there's nothing particularly unusual about it. In fact, she probably the most human character in the cast so far.

In that sense, she serves as good foil for Taichi's dysfunctional character.

[Sphire]

Originally Posted by Snuffle

I'm only now just noticing everyone here is only focusing on Taichi. We know he has a white knight syndrome (at least that's what we're assuming) that causes him to act the way he does. But why does Inaba have a trust issue?

Just like how we all want to know, "what is causing Taichi to act this way?" we should also be questioning, "why does Inaba have a trust issue?"

Now there are signs that Inaba is trying to change her way of thinking but how deep does that change really go? Is it only to the point of being able to socialize with others but at the same time not trust them? Or is she trying to break down her wall she has up and believe people don't want to hurt her?

That's a really good point. They both probably have issues that lead them to how they are. But the show hasn't really delved into that yet. I'm assuming they will. Maybe it's Inaba's self-loathing that makes her not trust herself, let alone others.

As for those trust issues, it seems like the answer is set in such a wide range that it's pointless to assume. Does she trust her family? Does she trust the teachers at school (God knows I wouldn't where I went to school)? Does she trust the police? Does she trust no one at all? Nothing concrete has been given. Her issues are still a bit vague.

Taichi on the other hand, is more straight forward. He's the white knight that wants to help everyone.

[Lantern]

Originally Posted by Sphire

Eh, I see it differently. She basically did order Yui to act like her. She even said 'Take some responsibility' straight to her face. She's telling Yui to be more like herself; the one who keeps things bottled up, puts on a brave face and is taking responsibility. We don't know when exactly Inaba's outburst trigger was set (like we do with Taichi), but you could imagine a similar instance of her thinking to herself 'That's no excuse' like how Taichi thought to himself before his outburst. And it would still fit her response.

I don't think I can agree with that, but lemme say that I'm most definitely biased here.

Now, putting all the bad words bad timing factors aside, the way Inaba does it, while assertive, she doesn't berate Yui like Taichi does to her. Meaning that, she doesn't set a standard. She's only telling Yui what she she thinks is right and point out that Yui's approach can turn out disastrous. I mean, if you're in a team, and your teammate is telling you to take some responsibility for whatever critical reason, can you really say that he's forcing an ideal on you? I guess you can argue that it is, but in a broader sense, I think it's pretty acceptable. While Taichi, he does it in a way that if Inaba doesn't follow his ideals, she's inferior to his standards. He's literally forcing his own standard down her throat with how the dialogue goes.

Again, my opinion is entirely biased as I tend to favor the side with critical arguments (like the ones Inaba brought up). Just throwing this thought out there.

[Kenju of the Right]

Originally Posted by Midonin

I agree with Taichi's general philosophy.

Yes! I thought I was the only one!

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Qilin

Please. By calling it an "accident" you're already undervaluing the role of emotion in forming the identity. It's even worse if people don't take responsibility for their own emotions. It seems to me that there's something of a double standard at work here. But I guess it's a natural reaction given that emotions are usually suppressed or controlled by reason, which means that they aren't that visible most of the time.

You still don’t get it. Our reasoning is a form of our “responsibility” towards our emotion.

For example:
you saw a man attacking a girl. Your emotion at that time might be a rage like this: “Wth is that a**hole doing! I’ll help that girl!” If you act based on that emotion, you’ll go straight up and attack the guy and maybe adding some really mean insult to him (like Taichi did with his outburst). But instead of that, you let your reason do quick work by analyzing the context of the scene: the girl is being attacked while being closely watched by many other women and they’re looking calm. Then, you approach them and ask “what is happening?” then one of the women says “Oh, it’s a self-defense training.” By filtering your emotion with reason, that’s how human mind works. Sure, there are some cases where people act directly on their emotion (like when people snapped), but Taichi’s outburst is not like that.

By “accident” I meant HS’s gimmick interference. Not the emotional outburst itself.

Originally Posted by Qilin

The id, while impulsive and unreliable, is still representative of the person to an extent. In fact, it says a lot about a person just looking at it head on without the obstructive ego to restrain it.

Relentless’ post pretty much said what I’m thinking mostly.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I think that an outburst of emotion doesn't even represent all of our emotions, let alone our thoughts.

Like, I've gotten into some really heated arguments with my parents (particularly when I was a teenager), and some words were said. But even though I really did mean what I said at the time in most cases (sometimes exaggerated a bit for effect...) it wasn't all I felt. My decision to normally not say those things is not just because of rational thought, but also because of other feelings. Feelings like love, compassion, empathy, and on and on. When you lose control of your emotions, it's not just that you stop thinking, it's that you let certain emotions (the more passionate ones) override other ones. And that's why you "feel badly" afterwards. Not just because your brain says "I shouldn't have done that; that person will be offended", but because your other emotions take over.

Taichi said something really hurtful to Himeko, and he may very well have meant it, but I don't think what he said is the only thing he thinks or feels about her. Coming to terms with these many conflicting emotions is what our brain helps us to do, and what is difficult for them to do under these circumstances.

Originally Posted by Qilin

I'm not calling it a crime or a fault to express hidden emotions, but I don't like it when people set aside "emotional outbursts" as distinct from the idea of the self. I look at such measures as just another form of rationalization. An emotional outburst is simply another expression of the self just like some impartial decision you have to make one time or another.

I didn’t set emotional outburst aside. Basically, we already have a set of emotion for people. There’s love, hate, etc. Which one that we bring to the forefront might not be up to us. You might hate your friend today for a specific thing he/she’s done (to you). But tomorrow, you might like that person for another thing he/she’s done. What I’m trying to say is that emotion is very much situational and happen almost instantly as a reaction and mostly last for a short period of time. You can’t rely on that to get a person’s opinion or personality. Yes, it’s a part of him/her, but I think it’s a minor & basic part compared to the complex entirety of thinking process or personality (yes, it includes reasoning too). So, anything person A said to person B while in id mode at one moment does not necessarily represent all of A’s feelings toward B, and that "overall feelings" is what I consider "true feelings" (our opinions might differ about this).

[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

You still don’t get it. Our reasoning is a form of our “responsibility” towards our emotion.

For example:
you saw a man attacking a girl. Your emotion at that time might be a rage like this: “Wth is that a**hole doing! I’ll help that girl!” If you act based on that emotion, you’ll go straight up and attack the guy and maybe adding some really mean insult to him (like Taichi did with his outburst). But instead of that, you let your reason do quick work by analyzing the context of the scene: the girl is being attacked while being closely watched by many other women and they’re looking calm. Then, you approach them and ask “what is happening?” then one of the women says “Oh, it’s a self-defense training.” By filtering your emotion with reason, that’s how human mind works. Sure, there are some cases where people act directly on their emotion (like when people snapped), but Taichi’s outburst is not like that.

Okay, so you properly illustrated the role of the ego in restraining undesirable emotional impulses. But the premise here is that the ego is currently defective, so we should be able to see how the id works in isolation.

I think you and I are talking about two different things. All I'm saying is that people have a habit of dissociating their emotions (at least the undesirable ones) from their perception of "self". I mean, I don't like it when people come and claim, "It wasn't me, it was my desire/emotion." In doing this, they are drawing a clear dichotomy between the rational self and the emotional self, which I believe is obstructive to achieving self acceptance. Whether it's a defense mechanism or something else, I don't know.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I didn’t set emotional outburst aside. Basically, we already have a set of emotion for people. There’s love, hate, etc. Which one that we bring to the forefront might not be up to us. You might hate your friend today for a specific thing he/she’s done (to you). But tomorrow, you might like that person for another thing he/she’s done. What I’m trying to say is that emotion is very much situational and happen almost instantly as a reaction and mostly last for a short period of time. You can’t rely on that to get a person’s opinion or personality. Yes, it’s a part of him/her, but I think it’s a minor & basic part compared to the complex entirety of thinking process or personality (yes, it includes reasoning too). So, anything person A said to person B while in id mode at one moment does not necessarily represent all of A’s feelings toward B, and that "overall feelings" is what I consider "true feelings" (our opinions might differ about this).

Well obviously, emotions are not conclusive in themselves. And like you said, they are very situational, but why should that stop anyone from drawing certain theories from them? While they obviously can't tell the entire story, it can still be quite informative in evaluating how a person reacts on a situational basis. Just think of reason/logic as an extraneous variable that had to be removed for the sake of this little social experiment.

Contrary to what you might think, my assessment of Taichi's character is not solely from that single emotional scene. Please don't misrepresent me here. All I'm doing is a bit of speculation based on what we got. You can't deny that we can get all sorts of good hints regarding his inner psyche from that particular scene.

Also, since this show seems to be using a vaguely Freudian framework anyway, emotions form the foundation of our expressed behavior. They are the end all and be all of everything we do. The ego is simply there to express these emotions within the bounds of society's norms.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Shimapan

What kind of bs is that?

It isn't bs at all. I was very clear in my point.

Taichi was there when Inaba was harsh with Yui, and Inaba apologized for it, resulting in Yui essentially saying "You may be saying your sorry, but you really meant what you're apologizing for". In other words, the apology did nothing for Yui, because both her and Inaba knew that Inaba meant what she said due to the whole gimmick that Heartseed has put into play this arc.

Inaba would similarly be smart enough to know that an immediate apology from Taichi would be insincere - That, like it or not, he meant what he said. That's how this current gimmick employed by Heartseed works.

And since Taichi was there during Inaba and Yui's exchange, Taichi knows that any immediate apology from him probably wouldn't be any more well-received than what Inaba's was.

An apology that's perceived as insincere can actually worsen matters. I've seen it happen many times before.

Taichis assumptions of Inaban not caring about Yui were downright wrong. It was just that his mind was so hazy from his warped expectations that he simply couldn't think clearly and pretty much just yelled at Inaban about why she didn't live up to his warped expectations, using crude language and all that. Looks like deep inside, Taichi is harshly judgemental about others, and this side of him was exposed now.

You say all of this about Taichi (and even get into wild speculations about his past, unless you're basing it on source material knowledge), and yet you apparently give Inaba a total pass for all of her many judgmental/rude moments. How often does Inaba call Taichi a "selfless freak"? Last I checked, being called "*anything* freak" was a pretty clear insult, and generally rude.

Does Inaba ever apologize for the rude/insulting things she says to Taichi?

And like I said before, Inaba doesn't even have the excuse of "unleashed Id" for many of her moments of being insulting. And furthermore, she says such things on a fairly regular basis.

People probably excuse it, in their own minds, because they go "Oh, that's just what Ice Princesses are like".

Ok, fine. If that's your approach, then much the same can be said about Taichi's moment in this episode - "Oh, that's just what White Knights are like."

"White Knights" do tend to hold their closest friends/allies to high expectations/standards, just like how Ice Princesses often feel free to be blunt and rough with those that they spend a lot of time with.

If you're going to go easy on one character because "That's just how her archetype works", then I don't see why we shouldn't also go easy on another character because "That's just how his archetype works".


Edit:

Originally Posted by Lantern

I don't think I can agree with that, but lemme say that I'm most definitely biased here.

Now, putting all the bad words bad timing factors aside, the way Inaba does it, while assertive, she doesn't berate Yui like Taichi does to her. Meaning that, she doesn't set a standard.

She's absolutely setting a standard. A very clear standard at that. It's a team-first standard. And Inaba was insisting on Yui following that team-first standard.

I agree with what Inaba said to Yui, but that doesn't make it any less forceful. And there was a clear implication in Inaba's words to Yui that if Yui didn't go along with Inaba's (admittedly good) logic, that Yui would be failing to do her fair share. That Yui would be inferior to the rest going by Inaba's team-first standards.

I mean, if you're in a team, and your teammate is telling you to take some responsibility for whatever critical reason, can you really say that he's forcing an ideal on you?

It's not like they're the NY Yankees, and they're competing for the World Series together. They're not a "team" in the strictest sense of the term. They're just a bunch of friends that happen to be in a club together (a club noticeably lacking in many club-based activities, by the way).

So I don't think the premise of your rhetorical question here even works given the context.

And since they're not really "a team", I think one could question Inaba's insistence on a team-based approach. I personally agree with Inaba's approach there, but it's not like these people are clearly tied together in a way that a sports team is.

Again, my opinion is entirely biased as I tend to favor the side with critical arguments (like the ones Inaba brought up).

Taichi doesn't need to make critical arguments for his position, because his position is simple conventional wisdom - "You're there for your friends when they are in need".

Now, I definitely think a good case can be made that Taichi is taking this idea a bit farther than it should be, but the basic position is a generally accepted one and is fairly obvious here. Taichi doesn't need to actually put it into words.