Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[Kaijo]

Magic darkens the soul. Unless we are shown otherwise, it doesn't look like it matters whether you contract with Kyube or somehow get magic on your own. It's the very use of it that matters. The Soul Gem also gives a good indicator of this. The contract with Kyube just means you have to fight (with still no idea yet on how that is enforced).

Honestly, I think people are getting too wrapped in the idea that Madoka can suddenly save everyone and use power without a cost. If she uses magic, I'd presume that she'd still darken her soul.

The only caveat theory I have, is that magic use in and of itself doesn't darken the soul, but "negative" use of it. MG's use their magic to fight and kill witches, violent methods. Perhaps it is that particular use that darkens one's soul. If one were to use magic for positive means, perhaps it wouldn't darken?

Just idle speculation. Too many people have paid costs to help others, while Madoka has sat on the sidelines, whining. If she suddenly bypasses the system, it will feel a bit cheap, in my opinion. By this point, she needs to pay a cost.

[blaze0041]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

The only caveat theory I have, is that magic use in and of itself doesn't darken the soul, but "negative" use of it. MG's use their magic to fight and kill witches, violent methods. Perhaps it is that particular use that darkens one's soul. If one were to use magic for positive means, perhaps it wouldn't darken?

If we looked at this from a more religious context, then yes, this theory is entirely possible. The 'sin' of having to kill a witch, and/or negative emotions ("Witches are born from regret/curses) appears to darken the Soul Gem.
The issue with this theory though, would regard MGs who did not wish for anything relating to health (e.g. saving your life, healing a mortal wound, etc.)- I guess that's the only positive means for using magic I can think of...

We can't be sure, however. QB has stated before that the use of magic darkens the Soul Gem, but then again, he never provides information unless he is asked.

I also start to wonder if becoming a witch is an inevitable fate, whereby using Grief Seeds merely stems the process...

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Magic darkens the soul. Unless we are shown otherwise, it doesn't look like it matters whether you contract with Kyube or somehow get magic on your own.

Before you make that leap, we need to know whether anyone not contracted with Kyubey can use magic. So far, the only ones using magic are Kyubey, the Puella Magi, and Witches, which are former Puella Magi.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Solace

The first isn't as important to the story except for emotion and plot progression, the second is very important to ask because Madoka WILL become a Magical Girl, and the question is how.

Personally I think the biggest subversion they could possibly pull is if she doesn't become a magical girl at all in this timeline, at least. I know its not very likely. Storytelling wise is would be extremely hard to pull off, in my opinion, but certainly still open to doubt at this time since they've already surpassed most other MG shows by leaps and bounds because it's rare that the main character doesn't become a MG either the first or second episode. Leaving it to the last episode seems more likely than completely leaving it out though I must admit I'm intrigued by the possibility.

On another issue I'm wondering from some of the other speculation if these witches aren't in fact what we might refer to as ghosts. We know some of the common tropes associated with ghosts. Filled with regrets they are unable to leave the mortal world. This might be what grief seeds are. Remnants of their former self's. It could be that people with certain mindsets could wander cross into their worlds where the witches can hurt or kill them. Could be similar to what happened in the movie spirited away. Now that might also explain why magical girls can become grief seeds too when their soul becomes corrupted also.

I also expect, if true, MG's who become witches probably have more of an effect on the human world than normal witches. I don't really know yet what to theorize about why QB would be harvesting the grief seeds other than he has something major planned in the end.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Honestly, I think people are getting too wrapped in the idea that Madoka can suddenly save everyone and use power without a cost.

Who said there wouldn't be a price? I merely suggested that in order for her to avoid the fate of the contract, she'd have to circumvent the system to gain her powers. I never said there wouldn't or shouldn't be a cost attached to it.

And what has Madoka done that constitutes whining? She definitely mopes due to her feelings of uselessness, but she's been a proactive person in most cases. She offered to be a Magical Girl to help Mami (no need to rehash the discussions of what happens after). She saved the group of hypnotized people (one of her friends included) by throwing the toxic chemicals out the window. She asks Homura to help prevent Sayaka and Kyoko from killing each other. She tries to comfort Sayaka as best she can, including wandering the city trying to find her, knowing she's troubled. She even offers to contract to save her.

She isn't superpowered liked the other girls, and she doesn't have the advantage of seeing the wider picture like we the audience do, but I'd say she's definitely doing the best she can to help when she can. Her Mom's advice was pretty telling, imo. Making mistakes and doubting yourself are part of growing up, but picking yourself up and moving forward in spite of that is what makes you an adult.

[Triple_R]

An idea that I've been giving a lot of thought to...

Spoiler for Soiler space due to length, and briefly referencing 2Chan spoiler:

Unless we are being trolled, that black cat in the OP (and in some notable promotional art) is very important.

An idea that struck my mind:

Kyubey is a very white creature, but an alien or mythical looking one.

The black cat is a very black creature, but a very normal looking one.

On these two points, the two are complete inverses of each other. What if the inverses go further?

A young girl becomes a magical girl by contracting with Kyubey and being granted a wish. This seems to inevitably set such a girl on the path to becoming a witch. While still a magical girl, the goal is to destroy witches through violent means and to collect their grief seeds to use to cleanse the soul gem that becomes corrupted by magic use.

Now... what if forming a pact with this black cat is the entire inverse? The black cat offers to make you a completely opposite sort of magical girl in return for conferring a blessing upon someone (i.e. you give a blessing instead of receiving a wish). As this opposite sort of magical girl, you do not destroy witches, but rather heal them back into becoming humans. This is a physically exhausting procedure, perhaps, but it doesn't corrupt the soul or darken the soul gem. Now this type of magical girl isn't doomed to become a witch but is rather set to age into a woman, and age naturally perhaps.


So, to a certain degree at least, the black cat is the "good counterpart" to Kyubey, as others have speculated. Let's make use of this idea, and while fusing it with those 2chan spoilers.


In the original timeline, Homura made a pact with that good counterpart black cat, hence becoming a healing sort of magical girl. Meanwhile, in the original timeline, Madoka, Mami, and Sayaka all contracted with Kyubey. For a time, they were a happy brigade of magical girls.

At some point, Madoka and Homura met up, and the two became friends. However, it eventually became clear to both that they are very different sorts of magical girls. Madoka and Homura desired to find out why. Perhaps they simply asked Kyubey, and the awful truth was made known to Madoka. Or perhaps Kyubey and the black cat had a bit of a bad run-in, with the two being enemies, and that led to certain revelations being made.

After finding out about her fate to be doomed to become a witch, Madoka fell into a deep depression. Homura tried to heal Madoka back into a normal girl, but it was very exhausting for her. Madoka told Homura to stop, since she didn't want Homura to risk herself like that for her. Madoka then headed off to find a safe, isolated place to become a witch, trying to prevent civilians and loved ones from getting hurt. This would be consistent with Homura talking about how Madoka is always so sacrificing of herself.

Once Madoka turned into a witch, though, she was insanely powerful and ended up being emotionally pulled back to her home city. There she overwhelmed all the magical girls that tried to stop her, and/or heal her, while wrecking severe damage. Only Homura remained. Perhaps Homura's black cat familiar was killed or injured in the struggle as well.

Out of desperation, Homura made a contract with Kyubey, perhaps becoming the first girl ever to have been both types of magical girl. That would certainly make her "irregular". Homura either wished to travel back in time, or she made a very carefully worded wish to change reality drastically, making the world much how it was before Madoka ever became a magical girl.

However, events are now playing out somewhat like how they did before, and Homura is growing increasingly desperate.

And if so, this is what I think might be Madoka's out: At some point, that black cat familiar of Homura's shows up again. Madoka contracts with that black cat, and bypasses Kyubey entirely (hence those telling scenes of Madoka and the black cat in the OP). Madoka than becomes a healing type of magical girl, enabling her to restore Sayaka and undo the corrupted magical girl system that Kyubey is working within.

This would be a mostly happy ending, of course, but it would remain slightly bittersweet since Mami is still dead, and won't be coming back.

So, what do people think of my ideas here?

[Jimmy C]

If this were a 2-cour show, that'd be a chance for something like that. But, with only 4 episodes left (rather 3, since the last has to be reserved for a big finale battle) the chances of it being something that requires that much explaination is nearly zero.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

If this were a 2-cour show, that'd be a chance for something like that. But, with only 4 episodes left (rather 3, since the last has to be reserved for a big finale battle) the chances of it being something that requires that much explaination is nearly zero.

I don't see why.

I think you could probably cover most if not all of it in just half an episode's worth of flashback scenes. Or, a Homura info-dump could cover it in even less time (not sure how advisable that would be though )

Also, what's left that really has to happen, particularly if that speculation holds true?

All that's left is Kyoko trying to save Sayaka, the Walpurgis Night situation, and playing out what I outlined in that spoiler space. 4 Episodes is enough time for that.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

One other thing hit me... even if we take Kyube's statement at face value that magical girls can grow up into witches... it looks very much like most magical girls never grow up, then, heh.

That's not what he said. He said that Witches ARE matured MGs.

This also poses another interesting quandary... we know witches are a threat, and if the girls fighting knew that witches used to be humans, they might not be able to "pull the trigger" so to speak. So, for the good of the war effort, do you hold this tidbit back as well? Or tell everyone and risk not having enough soldiers?

You seriously still believe in this "war" theory? QB never cared about the "war" in the first place. More contracts = more MGs = more pain, suffering and Witches = more polluted GS. That's what QB cares about.

I do think that it's possible that a MG who is very scrupulous might have difficulties fighting Witches once she learns the true origin of them, though.

We have another interesting moral quandary here, similar to the last one. Combined with the soul/body thing, and the "truth" about witches being humans, one might not have enough magical girls to hold back the tide of rapidly spawning witches, thereby dooming humanity.

Better to eradicate the root of the evil first and unravel the MG scam.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So, what do people think of my ideas here?

Several interesting ideas... I think we'll have to wait for at least ep9. We simply have too few puzzle pieces for a credible shot at the ending. Time for Homura to give us something to work with.

I do agree with the general idea to go for an alternative "operational mode" for MGs that does not rely on QB's soul-stealing. And should the cat be another character that wasn't introduced so far - a non-QB so to say - then I could see things playing out very close to what you listed. The main question is if a completely new character would be introduced this late in the show, with no trace of him/her/it before, this part is what's making me scratch my head the most at the moment.

For this alternative, I think it would be symmetrical and thus more logical if the girl in question wouldn't receive a miracle wish for herself, but rather that she makes a pledge for other people: For Madoka, along the lines of "I'll do my very best to help whoever I can".

What I do like about your theory is the "healing" approach. Not to think that Madoka will be a complete pacifist as MG, but I see her as a healer and negotiator rather than a warrior. It would also give a chance for "partial" resets (and thus, bittersweet instead of sugary-sweet endings).

Let's review this again once we've learned a bit more about Homura.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Decagon

I don't know about those particular cancers for a kid. Breast and ovarian cancer especially, as they arise later in a woman's life because of how they are tied into a woman's hormonal and reproductive cycles. You usually see leukemia and lymphoma as the more common cancers observed in children or teens. I hope Meo can give us a consultation if he's familiar.

Was looking at the cancer symbolism that was brought up here so I ended up paying the oncology wards in my place a visit before I went home. Just my second time there but yeah it looks the same.

The indications for Paclitaxel looks like it's used for malignant conditions found in the older populations. As a microtubule stabilizer it could theoretically be used for any cancer since it blocks a mitotic function common to almost all cells, so it doesn't necessarily mean the source of this witch is a kid. Then again given Inkyubeytor's methods, most likely it is. And then I read that Paclitaxel is used for Kaposi's sarcoma. Kaposi's sarcoma is pathognomonic of very advanced AIDS infection because it almost exclusively appears in AIDS patients, though children to a lesser extent. The kid witch could have had congenital HIV infection.

Well anyway if you could give me what the IV drip bag label says I could probably tell you what the sickness is.

[Decagon]

As far as I can tell, the runes on the bags just say "Charlotte".

[MeoTwister5]

Then I can't give you the likely disease.

Well anyway if we were to connect the witch again as a corrupted MG, then this was clearly a ward patient, the 2ch Anon is likely right this is a cancer patient (Urobuchi gave the kid a bad condition, though I'm not surprised), and I'm going to say at the age of a middle teenager... and somewhere a tossup between a Leukemia or a "insert organ here"-blastoma tumor. Of course this would have to be a VERY advanced case for the kid to lose all hope and contract with Inkyubeytor in exchange for life (Acute Lymphoid Leukemias have a 90%+ cure rate, and blastomas can be cured early).

Then again the world of the witch where the MGs fight them may not necessarily even be a personal world of the MG turned witch itself: it might be the world reflecting the nature or recipient of the witch. Perhaps the witch once wished for the recovery of someone who was dying of cancer, and when shit hit the fan and the MG became a witch, the internal world transformed to that which reflected the essence of the wish. In fact if Sayaka is to be fought in her witch realm, it may as well reflect a hospital.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Several interesting ideas... I think we'll have to wait for at least ep9. We simply have too few puzzle pieces for a credible shot at the ending. Time for Homura to give us something to work with.

True. On the specifics, I'm going by pure speculation, and trying to fit things together that work with what the plot has revealed so far.

I'm thinking that, for sheer commercial reasons if nothing else, we will see a magical girl Madoka at some point. However, it seems unlikely to me that Madoka contracting with Kyubey could believably end well and still be consistent with what Gen is trying to show here.

I get a sense that Gen values thematic consistency. That he likes for things to go in one clear direction.

With this in mind, it's hard to dismiss the following:

1) Becoming a Kyubey-style magical girl seems to never end well. While it's true that we don't have much of a sample size to go by here, it's also true that we don't even have one clear-cut exception to that.

2) Madoka has consistently sought out non-violent and/or diplomatic solutions. Even when violence is visited upon Kyubey, she objects to it. Madoka's the lead protagonist, so maybe there's a message here.

I do agree with the general idea to go for an alternative "operational mode" for MGs that does not rely on QB's soul-stealing. And should the cat be another character that wasn't introduced so far - a non-QB so to say - then I could see things playing out very close to what you listed. The main question is if a completely new character would be introduced this late in the show, with no trace of him/her/it before, this part is what's making me scratch my head the most at the moment.

I do see your point here. But then, there's only two alternatives to that here:

1. The black cat in the OP never shows up in the anime. The idea of this seems very odd to me. How often does a character get significant screen-time in an anime's OP but never shows up in the anime?

2. The black cat is an alternate or true form of an existing character.

Neither of these two sit entirely well with me, so I can kind of forgive a completely new character showing up in the final third of the anime, given the two alternatives to it.

For this alternative, I think it would be symmetrical and thus more logical if the girl in question wouldn't receive a miracle wish for herself, but rather that she makes a pledge for other people: For Madoka, along the lines of "I'll do my very best to help whoever I can".

Good point. That probably works better yeah.

What I do like about your theory is the "healing" approach. Not to think that Madoka will be a complete pacifist as MG, but I see her as a healer and negotiator rather than a warrior. It would also give a chance for "partial" resets (and thus, bittersweet instead of sugary-sweet endings).

Agreed.

Something else that occurred to me... Homura and Madoka (magical girl style) both have bows in promotional art for this. Yet Homura hasn't been seen with a bow yet.

Maybe the bow is the standard issue "weapon" that the "alternate" magical girls get? Basically, they're all archers? If so, maybe Homura lost her bow by contracting with alternate timeline Kyubey. Just a thought.

Let's review this again once we've learned a bit more about Homura.

Right. Glad you liked some of my ideas at least.

[jeroz]

something will happen to madoka's family within the next 3 episodes. If Madoka has to make that jump after a quiet time by herself weighting the options her family will have to come into consideration. Guilt can cloud your head so badly it's not funny.

correct me if i'm wrong. Did kyubey actually advise the mahou shoujo to use the grief seed? Mami instructed sayaka and madoka in ep2 and seems like kyubey is just follow along with it, with the occasional "don't use the grief seed too much".

[erneiz_hyde]

Spoiler:

For those who can't read moonrune:
left: Akemi Homura あ　け　み　ほ　む　ら
right: Kaname HomuraMadoka
カ　ナ　メ　ま　ど　か

Hilarity ensues.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Hilarity ensues.

in other words...

Spoiler:

Madoka boobpresses madoka = Homura

[Sageblink]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Spoiler:

For those who can't read moonrune:
left: Akemi Homura あ　け　み　ほ　む　ら
right: Kaname HomuraMadoka
カ　ナ　メ　ま　ど　か

Hilarity ensues.

My mind is blowing in every direction.

Spoiler for Her...:

Her daugther ?
Future Madoka ?
Madoka's cat + soul gem ?
Madoka's sister ?

Does Madoka exist at all ?
Is she some kind of replacement for Homura ? (Wish / reality warping)

[venk]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Spoiler:

For those who can't read moonrune:
left: Akemi Homura あ　け　み　ほ　む　ら
right: Kaname HomuraMadoka
カ　ナ　メ　ま　ど　か

Hilarity ensues.

Rather than Kaname Madoka, it's more like Kaname Matora

to --> do
and
ra --> ka ,

how can you read it like that ?

[erneiz_hyde]

to と
do　ど
ra ら
ka か

I guess no explanations needed for the 'to' and 'do', but the 'ra' and 'ka' might be a little confusing if you see the computer font to compare. If you try enough, a little distortion in how you write 'ra' might be read as 'ka' instead.

Edit: frankly, this is hilarious at best. If this turned out to be true I'm gonna literally roflmao