Learning Japanese

[Raiga]

Simple kanji are built up from the eight basic strokes (and the other less basic ones).

Complex kanji are built from simple kanji, including what are called radicals. The short version is that radicals are kanji components or modified simple kanji that provide the "categorical meaning" for a word. For example, words with the radical 金 usually have to do with metal, including 鉄 (iron), 銀 (silver), 鋼 (steel), 鐘 (bell or gong) etc.

This is not always true, as meaning evolves over time and sometimes words or radicals can be used metaphorically. For example, I have no idea why the character 錯 in 錯覚 (delusion) has the 金 radical. It just does.

I really like this site because its kanji look-up will list "graphical children" and "graphical parents" to each kanji, breaking it down into the individual simpler components that make it up. For example, the entry for 朝 lists the graphical parents as 月 and 龺 (which is not a kanji but a component). You can click on 龺 and find that it in turn breaks down into the graphical parents 十 and 日. You can also see that 朝 has graphical children such as 潮 (which, incidentally, has the three-dots-of-water radical).

[Rising Dragon]

When it comes to learning kanji, my teacher has us review them four to six at a time, and has us write them down 30 or 60 times each. While some kanji are a pain to write even fifteen times in a row, the repetition of them does help us learn them. Then, 'bout a week later when we've learned all the kanji in a chapter, which is usually around 15 or so different kanji, she quizzes us on it, both on the translation and the writing of it.

[leehowachi]

Itaadaakiimaassss =D my fav one for eating :P

[Riki]

@Raiga:thanks i think. i dont get what you mean tho. but thanks for taking some of your time to help.

@rising dragon:Im slf-learning jap so i dont have a teacher or anything but~ did you srsly practice 2000+ kanji lol thats crazy

[Alchemist007]

If you want to know Japanese, you have to practice 2000+ kanji :|

If you want to hear the kanji and then never bother to remember it, you don't practice! It's like a law of human learning, if you don't practice things, you suck at them (unless you're a tensai).

[Falcor]

Originally Posted by Riki

Any good method on learning kanji? can someone tell me how? searching the dictionary for 2000+ words is crazy...*i do it though* if someone can help i will be much appreciated.

Remembering the Kanji by James W. Heisig (3 volumes) is an excellent resource, but it is geared towards self-learners who are just beginning their studies. Remembering the Kana is also a highly recommended prerequisite if you go that route, since it introduces the author's "imaginative memory" technique.

Disclaimer: This series is not recommended for formal study, ie a classroom environment, as noted by the author himself in the foreword, so take that for what it's worth.

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by Riki

Any good method on learning kanji? can someone tell me how? searching the dictionary for 2000+ words is crazy...*i do it though* if someone can help i will be much appreciated.

It's bad enough that there are so many of 'em. Add the fact of multiple pronunciations and readings.

[NoemiChan]

Question. Hiragana is used for Japanese words while Katakana is used for "foreign words" incorporated in the Japanese dictionary (I think). How would I know when to use which? You may say it's simple but if you're a newbie, grouping them as Pure and Borrowed would be very difficult. Following that can that, as a newbie, can I just write both in Hiragana? Will it be bad?

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Riki

@rising dragon:Im slf-learning jap so i dont have a teacher or anything but~ did you srsly practice 2000+ kanji lol thats crazy

2000+ kanji? No, I'm not that far in the language classes--we only start learning kanji in Japanese 2. I know barely more than a hundred.

[Riki]

@alchemist007: i get what you mean..but i already got chinese smacked into my brains lol it makes it harder to remember the sound of the kanji.

@kyuu:Yea (T.T)

@Falcor:i'll look into it thanks.

@rising dragon: Is 100 even enough to read a jap book ??

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by Riki

@rising dragon: Is 100 even enough to read a jap book ??

Not even close.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by Riki

@rising dragon: Is 100 even enough to read a jap book ??

Umm, multiply that by 30 and there's a closer estimate on the low end

[Alchemist007]

And just because you know the kanji doesn't mean you know all the compounds! (Oh god the compounds)

Actually, sometimes the compounds can help you remember the pronunciation too.

[Zakoo]

The japenese newspaper use theorically around 800 kanji, for all the others they have to write the furigana above.

As for myself I befan around June, I know around 500kanji but I don't have any confidence in my reading, as soon as I leave my official book where I can check the translation I begin to think "hell no it's not that" or sometime I can't even remember the basic Kanji..

A very hard language, yet a pleasure to learn it, Hopefully I have some will to learn by myself.

[RandomGuy]

Originally Posted by Zakoo

The japenese newspaper use theorically around 800 kanji, for all the others they have to write the furigana above.

Most newspapers use a subset of the Joyo kanji that leaves out some of the more difficult ones (roughly 100? I don't have my Asahi Shimbun style guide nearby to check), but adds others (mostly from the Jinmeiyo kanji list) and also will use characters from neither at their discretion, with furigana.

Ordinary words with uncommon characters may be rewritten completely in kana (挨拶 --> あいさつ [also an example of two Joyo characters intentionally omitted from Newspaper kanji lists]), in mazegaki (only the offending character written in kana: 信憑性 --> 信ぴょう性), or all in kanji with furigana. Reporters are also told to try and avoid using non-Joyo kanji where possible, even replacing more difficult words with easier ones. Historical topics, proper nouns, and keywords for current events are usually written in kanji with furigana. One example: "Enlightenment philosophy" (as in, the Age of) would be written as 啓蒙思想 with けいもう over the first two kanji, but "enlightenment" in the general sense of "becoming aware of new things" would be intentionally rewritten as 啓発 (keihatsu, no furigana).

They also sometimes alter the kanji in words so that they use less difficult characters: the dumbed-down 抽選 in particular appears to have almost completely displaced the proper 抽籤 (ちゅうせん) for the word "lottery" in society at large (it's easy enough to remember, since when you reverse the kanji, you get くじびき).

[Shinji01]

Originally Posted by genjichan

Question. Hiragana is used for Japanese words while Katakana is used for "foreign words" incorporated in the Japanese dictionary (I think). How would I know when to use which? You may say it's simple but if you're a newbie, grouping them as Pure and Borrowed would be very difficult. Following that can that, as a newbie, can I just write both in Hiragana? Will it be bad?

It wont be "bad" but it looks weird.
Its like seeing someone write with upper and lower case letters jumbled together.
The impression you would give is very juvenile.
But of course, most people will know that you are not japanese and cut you some slack.
In official settings (business, official papers, address) its a big no no.

Originally Posted by Zakoo

The japenese newspaper use theorically around 800 kanji, for all the others they have to write the furigana above.

i am Japanese, and I just want you guys to know is that even Japanese people cant read everything in the newspaper.
You can understand the general flow, and you know what they are talking about, but they cant read the kanji properly or explain it to you.

However, if you remember your kanji, you can guess the meaning from just the kanji characters. You may not be able to pronounce it, but you can guess.
So please dont feel like you have to memorize every possible compound.

On technique to remember kanji, this is pure memorization.
We are taught in school to memorize kanji just the way you memorize how to spell words.
usually you just have to keep writing it, use flash cards, and use kanji workbooks.
Good option these days is to purchase Nintendo DS games that prepare you for kanji exams.

[velderia]

Kanji can look intimidating but if you how many words there actually are in the English language, and how many we don't use, that's a bit more shocking actually: http://oxforddictionaries.com/words/...glish-language

As a beginner, I notice the best way is to focus on vocabulary, verbs, etc, and then looking up the kanji as you go. There's actually more kanji I can read than write because I know the word (usually after reading it with furigana for so many times), but if you told me to write it, it would look bad, and I might not be able to write the whole thing. (Typing might be all right though. ) I don't really count how much I know exactly anymore, maybe just the ones I know how to write.

[Miko Miko]

So I wanna get started ahead on learning Japanese before I apply for my class next year. Any good software, books etc you could recommend?

[velderia]

Originally Posted by Miko Miko

So I wanna get started ahead on learning Japanese before I apply for my class next year. Any good software, books etc you could recommend?

If it's your very first Japanese class, start with hiragana and katakana (kana): http://amzn.com/0870117092 And/or: http://www.kanachart.com/

I've recently fallen in love with Tagaini Jisho as a dictionary to replace my tiny, pocket Oxford one: http://www.tagaini.net/download It's recommended that you have cleartype Japanese fonts and can type in kana for looking up words.

Some keyboard layout guides:
- XP: http://www.declan-software.com/japanese_ime/#XPinstall
- Vista: http://www.declan-software.com/japanese_ime/#vista
- Mac: http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/i...ds/mackey.html

But if you want a printed, kana-based Japanese dictionary, here are some really good ones:
Oxford Mini: http://amzn.com/0199560854
Oxford Basic: http://amzn.com/0198608594
Kodansha: http://amzn.com/4770024800

Oxford, Kodansha, and Tuttle are really amazing publishers that have a lot of material that isn't romaji-based. Romaji is great for people who want to learn to speak more than trying to read the language, but as someone who is used to kana and kanji, I find the romaji oftentimes distracting. Sometimes confusing, especially the "o"'s and the "u"'s, since the romaji isn't always translated the same way. Though Random House and a few other publishers have a dictionary that uses both romaji and kana, if needed: http://amzn.com/0679780017

This is a really nice Google Chrome extension if you're strolling on some Japanese websites, Rikaikun: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/d...nomkfpcebammhp

This is a huge list of study guides but some things might not work properly or some things might work better than others - Use at own risk: http://www.manythings.org/japanese/links/

For Firefox, Rikaichan: http://www.polarcloud.com/rikaichan/


Hope that helps.

[Tenken's Smile]

How do you say "I think it's cool to know (or "to be able to speak") 6 different languages?"