2013-09-22, 22:37 | Link #261 | |||
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As for Noe, of course her bad breakup and the aftermath of it was heavily dramatized. It's the freaking climax/aftermath of the main conflict of the show (which is definitely more than what the omurice conflict was in HSI). Quote:
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2013-09-23, 00:14 | Link #262 | ||
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Having blundered into that kind of landmine before, I found Yuki's reaction pretty realistic for someone with that level of pent-up emotions. And I don't find the reactions of her supporters that surprising either. Minko's being a bit of a jerk to them even before she lambasts Yuki - which always struck me as a bit of a "kick the puppy" moment. Quote:
Using that definition, I'd still say HSI is more melodramatic, just because of the show's tendency to relentlessly carpet bomb Ohana with bulls$%* from time to time - it was not hard to feel sorry for her. But I don't think it's as clear cut as you make it out to be, because so many of the scenes are just ham.
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2013-09-23, 05:34 | Link #263 |
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Maybe I have a completely different definition to melodrama to you all, but I found both True Tears nor Hanasaku Iroha melodramatic as a whole. True Tears despite its title didn't have people bawling out in tears and yelling in the background. Hanasaku Iroha had ample amount of "stupid shit" to be called melodramatic, and that's the reason why I have a problem with it, not because it had bad teen angst or forced crying, which it didn't.
When I think of melodrama, I think of stuff like Ano Hana, Kokoro Connect, Black Rock Shooter, ef, Clannad After Story and heck Kaiji (). In other words, those types of series that rely on theatrics and over-acting, rather than an extraordinary situation. Now granted, I think ef was a masterful work out of the lot because I felt like I was watching a Shakespeare play in anime form and After Story was mostly good. The rest... well... everyone knows my opinions on those. Except for maybe Kaiji. I watch that shit because its the definition of so bad its good. Last edited by Pocari_Sweat; 2013-09-23 at 09:41. Reason: mega typo |
2013-09-23, 05:37 | Link #264 | |
Seishu's Ace
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Well, I think you'd have a harder time finding a generally agreed definition of "ham" than melodrama. I think for most people it's an "I know it when I see it" thing, but one person's ham is another person's filet mignon.
As far as melodrama, you can start with the dictionary definitions: Quote:
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2013-09-23, 09:46 | Link #265 | |
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Guardian Enzo's quoted definition above actually fits that perfectly.
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2013-09-23, 10:07 | Link #267 | ||
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2013-09-23, 10:11 | Link #268 |
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Yeah, you know, I'm actually going to watch Nagi no Asukara for a bit before I decide it's gonna suck. P.A. Works connects with me more often than not, and manga adaptations of original series (not that I've read this one, only heard second-complaints) are a notoriously bad indicator.
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2013-09-23, 10:30 | Link #269 | ||
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This is me when reading the 2 manga chapters translated so far. Last edited by Birdway; 2013-09-23 at 10:42. |
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2013-09-23, 11:55 | Link #270 | ||||||
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Omg so much discussion.
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Here's some definitions, if we really want to try to put in some objective criteria. From Wiki: Quote:
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-09-23 at 12:06. |
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2013-09-23, 15:33 | Link #271 |
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It should be noted that this whole melodrama debate started because I argued that melodrama sells better than subtle does in the world of anime. I made that argument in order to address Pocari Sweat's question as to why Okada doesn't write more narratives like True Tears and Wandering Son, instead of "over the top middle school/high school romance melodramas."
If the term "melodrama" is one that people find hard to agree on, then perhaps it would be better to say "Works that are loud, flashy, and over the top tend to sell better than works that are subdued and restrained". I should hope that nobody is going to question that HSI is loud, flashy, and over the top. Whether you chalk it up to hammy comedy or melodrama or both, HSI is definitely loud, flashy, and frequently over the top. Again, this is not a criticism - I loved pro wrestling for a long time largely because it was loud, flashy, and over the top. I usual like very theatrical shows. And it seems that anime costumers go for that over more subdued and restrained SoL or drama shows. So, tl;dr, Okada is simply going for where the money is.
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2013-09-23, 19:02 | Link #272 | |
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2013-09-23, 19:23 | Link #273 | |
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There's a reason why I was willing to engage with Triple R, Haak, and 0utf0x even though I don't agree with all their points. This is because they used actual arguments, cited actual events in the story, or touched upon various themes. You're still using a circular argument. My point is you don't actually have an argument. In other words, it went X is melodramatic Rebuttal: X is not melodramatic Counter Rebuttal: Refine Melodramatic to Y and X is Y
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2013-09-23, 19:58 | Link #274 |
Seishu's Ace
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So effectively, by your standards if I say "San Francisco is North of Los Angeles" and post a map to prove it, that's insufficient because I'm not constructing my own argument, I'm relying on existing arguments to prove me point.
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2013-09-23, 20:11 | Link #276 | |
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In your analogy, you are making a statement of fact, and by using the map, you're confirming the fact. That's the end of it. For your analogy to work, we would have to be debating over the definition of melodrama and it would be a valid refutation if I refused to accept your definition or disregarded it. I'm not though. This ignores the main argument of whether Hanairo is more or less melodramatic than the other shows and why, using whatever definition you picked in the first place. The definition in itself does not do anything unless used to connect points into an argument.
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2013-09-23, 20:43 | Link #277 | ||||
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Based on the definitions I quoted, I think it's pretty simple. Quote:
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2013-09-23, 21:14 | Link #278 | ||||
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There's a certain reason why the series would go out of its way to go and develop characters like Nako and Yuina, of which certainly had its questionable aspects, but it was to show that they had another side of them. And also, Minko isn't really that flat of a character. I don't consider her a stereotypical tsundere at all (Actually, she doesn't even act harsh to the object of her affection, so she might not be one at all.) Yes, it was hard to take her character seriously, but she did change, and honestly I don't think she was made to serve the plot at all. It's just a matter of opinion of course, but I felt that Hana Saku Iroha wasn't melodramatic because Ohana's reactions to her situation while a bit over the top were appropriate given what she had to deal with. To me at least, a situation where you are forced to fend for yourself and you are disconnected from someone you really care about is a bit more understandable than a romantic love triangle. Now, this isn't saying that True Tears didn't have strong emotions either-- certainly it's reasonable to say that these events have had painful impact on all parties involved. To me though, I simply wasn't able to form this kind of connection with Hiromi because her past while touching, wasn't as in depth as I would have wanted it, Noe I just felt increasingly disconnected with her actions near the end. To me, it just felt that the bus was no longer driven by them in the last 1/3. Anyhow, that's all subjective, and thanks for elaborating-- that's all what I wanted anyways. In any case, I understand that Iroha is buried other too much crap to make this worth debating, and I think Anohana is better then both of them despite the M word. I like my anime just like I like my food-- with strong tastes, and it's only natural that overall I think it goes Anohana - TT - HSI. So don't take it that I'm defending Iroha over the other two.
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2013-09-23, 21:47 | Link #279 |
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Well indeed, this is all a matter of personal opinion. But I do think it's important to recognize that melodrama isn't a pejorative term. To my tastes there are good and bad melodramas, and good and bad series that have melodramatic elements. The presence of melodrama doesn't make a series less good, and the absence of it make it better - not on its own.
As for Anohana, which I commonly see mentioned as a melodramatic icon (and I suppose this is OT since this is a P.A. Works thread and not an Okada thread) I think it meets some of the definitions of melodrama, but not all of them. I think it's very much a character-driven show, for example, and I don't find the characters stereotypical at all. A much better example (and even more OT) example of a true melodrama, IMO, is Clannad.
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2013-09-23, 22:01 | Link #280 | |
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Why does everyone keep coming back to the damn omurice example?
Unless we're talking about how the camerawork emphasizes how brash and forceful Minko's delivery was - which I don't think we are because I've never heard anyone else bring it up - I don't see how the level of emotion in the scene was exaggerated. It's pretty much how I'd expect the scene to play out based on my real lif experiences where similar factors were at play. Quote:
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