To Aru Majutsu no Index Light Novel Discussion (Archives)

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Touma looking cool when beaten??
What were the general opinion when Aqua tore Touma into a broken mop back then?

The general opinion was that he should have been turned into a vegetable at the very least, and yet he remarkably () wasn't.

[I_am_Kami]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

No, that just screams God Mode Sue to me.

Implying that it still was not his epic moment and probably the most epic thing in Raildex

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Aleister did not point out which exact step that Fiamma messed up on.
But we can point out the two differences between Fiamma and Aleister.

First, Fiamma does not comprehend the true essence of the Right Hand, the IB, and the entity inside Touma. Although Fiamma can comprehend them, he failed to do so due to his outdated Aeon.

Second, Fiamma is only trying to refresh or re-tune the world into a clean state without applying his own vision into this reconstruction of world order and still uses Christianity to run the world after the resonctsruction. Fiamma is following the god's blue print but Aleister is trying to replace that blue print with something else.

My own assumption on what Fiamma had messed up base on the above two points:

1. Taking Touma's right hand might not be the right thing to do. Or he didn't use the right hand in a correct manner.
2. Following the god's blue print limited Fiamma's own power output. Aren't you trying to be La Persona superiore a Dio? Then why are you still following the god's rule?

And I think the killer is the second point.
Fiamma didn't think outside of the box. Setting the "negativity of the world" as his enemy is an extension of this short sightedness. He still value his power against this world of god, when he could disregard this world entirely and transcends above it.
So, despite all his effort and achieving god like power, he screwed up because he chose to be a mortal.

But was Fianma even wanting to be la Persona? All he wanted was "save the world"

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

But was Fianma even wanting to be la Persona? All he wanted was "save the world"

But didn't the latter require the former in Fiamma's mind?

[tsunade666]

I didn't expect Bardway to be in vol 18. I thought she first appeared in vol 22 but it looks like she appeared briefly here.

In a certain place, the boss of a magic cabal with its headquarters in the United Kingdom sighed. The girl of about 12 was half in shock over the emergency to the magic business.
“Boss. What do we do?”
“Idiot. You aren’t hoping we’re just going to give in to our youth and take part in this war, are you? She said we could ‘return’ it, so that’s all we have to do.”
“Couldn’t we take this chance to try to analyze Curtana?”
“If we try anything, it’ll just piss off the old hag in the crown. We need to stay out of this, stay under the radar, and keep an eye on this from the outside.”
“I see. But, boss, your sister, Miss Patricia, already left looking quite excited.”
“Then get her back here, you idiot!!”
The magic cabal boss’s voice echoed through the London night.

[Marcus H.]

Why do I imagine Aya Hirano or Harumi Sakurai (Yurippe, Angel Beats!) to be cast as Bardway?

[Zakoo]

Evil laugh?

[Hell_ping]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Why do I imagine Aya Hirano or Harumi Sakurai (Yurippe, Angel Beats!) to be cast as Bardway?

But Harumi Sakurai's already casted as Awaki. Only person I see who took two roles in this series was Endo Aya, and Awaki's a 'relatively major' supporting character in the 3rd season

[Marcus H.]

Aw man.... :< And it was perfect too...

[faiz blaster]

Originally Posted by Teh_Ping

But Harumi Sakurai's already casted as Awaki. Only person I see who took two roles in this series was Endo Aya, and Awaki's a 'relatively major' supporting character in the 3rd season

Actually Ryoka Yuzuki also has a double role (she voiced Oriana and Konori's friend in Railgun).

As for Bardway's Seiyuu, I still don't know much about her character, so there is not much I can say about it. All that I am going to say is that I am hoping to see Nana Mizuki eventually voice one of Touma's love interests (actually, I wished they had cast her for Itsuwa's role).

[Chaos2Frozen]

On the topic of Bardway's VA... Somehow I had pictured Aoi Yuki in her Victorique voice...

And just for fun, Takitsubo with be voiced by Hanazawa Kana... Say wahhhh ?! Well it's either her or Horie Yui... Every good JC Staff production needs a Horie Yui as a side character

Originally Posted by faiz blaster

As for Bardway's Seiyuu, I still don't know much about her character, so there is not much I can say about it. All that I am going to say is that I am hoping to see Nana Mizuki eventually voice one of Touma's love interests (actually, I wished they had cast her for Itsuwa's role).

Mizuki Nana = Lessar

...No, even better-

Spoiler:

Carissa

Imagine that commanding voice of hers

...Thought not exactly what you've wanted, but it's not like we have any new romance interest for Touma since Itsuwa... I don't know if Lessar counts.

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

...Thought not exactly what you've wanted, but it's not like we have any new romance interest for Touma since Itsuwa... I don't know if Lessar counts.

Then is rape interest?

[Karna]

Originally Posted by I_am_Kami

Implying that it still was not his epic moment and probably the most epic thing in Raildex

Flying a battleship into an archangel is pretty freaking badass.

[I_am_Kami]

V.18 Ch. 8 part 5.

[NightGale]

Originally Posted by I_am_Kami

V.18 Ch. 8 part 5.

So now Kamijou Touma is synonym for canonball man...

[Ice Block]

Originally Posted by NightGale

about Index

Nevermind the fact that you don't seem to understand how science works and that theories and concepts are never lost and are merely improved upon (there's a difference between peer-reviewed papers, even those not published, and crack theories, you know -- the former go to the history books, the latter go to the dustbin. New experiments are also constantly being designed to try and challenge existing models), Index's death would only mean that Necessarius would need to create a new grimoire library. Laura already has that covered.

Originally Posted by NightGale

However automatic a counter-system may be, it´s dependent on a database from which to take references and which process to make decisions. It may be true that this specific database is firmly etched in the HR; but, it´s uses are limited, you may argue that the HR is invincible, but it has use limits. If that wasn´t the case, Fiamma wouldn´t have proceeded with such a roundabout method to “save the world, from the enemy that must be defeated”, if it was truly perfect, it would have destroyed that enemy the moment it tried to harm the world, even if Fiamma wasn´t aware of that enemy existence. That´s precisely why Fiamma researched those limits, so as to bring the maximum benefit and nullify whatever backslash may be produced from a wrong handling of such power.

Let's end the debate on developmental biology, genetics, embryology, biochemistry, physics, statistics and whatnot, since as someone who has taken courses on these, I can guarantee that we will never see eye to eye the moment you said that there can be no randomness in matters of probability. Just as an example, there is even an experiment that utilizes Maxwell's demon, a concept that's based on the random movements of particles and would seem (only at first glance) to go against thermodynamics, to convert information to energy. Let's just agree to disagree or w/e.

However, I cannot let this misinformation regarding Fiamma slide. Why do you insist on creating your own version of canon? The Holy Right is a very simple existence. It is none of these things. It simply defeats. If there is no enemy, it cannot showcase its power to defeat. The same is true with the Imagine Breaker. If there is no supernatural power, it cannot showcase its ability to negate the supernatural. Index's knowledge was only used to allow Fiamma to use it indefinitely. At its base state (Volume 16), it's uses aren't limited. You are misinterpreting the text -- it just has a limit on the number of times it can be used (the difference is that your interpretation implies that there is something aside from IB it cannot defeat, or that it cannot be used to perform certain feats that are within its capability; the latter correctly states that it can do anything it is allowed to do as its description states, only that it can only be brought out a certain number of times). There is no database or whatnot. This isn't Accelerator's Reflect we're talking about here.

Let me stress the important point again: If there is no enemy, it cannot showcase its power to defeat. The enemy itself is decided by Fiamma. And another thing about the Holy Right: the enemy it recognizes and the target it is used against may differ. Due to this, it gains power from the enemy it recognizes and it can use that power to defeat another target. Say, for example, Fiamma sets the world as the enemy. The Holy Right would amass power enough to defeat the world, and Fiamma can then use that power to swat an innocent housefly. Fiamma controls the Holy Right using his own right hand. That is why Aleister Crowley first decided to blast away his entire right arm before he could react. This act resulted in Fiamma being unable to control the Holy Right, as the epilogue states:

Originally Posted by Silent_to_Small_Fire

Even though this is no longer something he can control, he can still fight.

Note the difference between this description above and the earlier one from before he was struck by Crowley:

Originally Posted by Silent_to_Small_Fire

Even if Fiamma’s hand holds a special power, under its limitations and fighting the enemies that will appear one after another, one day it will be all used up.

And again, you completely misunderstand Fiamma's actions. He isn't trying to "save the world, from the enemy that must be defeated", as there is no enemy that's trying to harm the world. He's trying to save the world by defeating the enemy that must be defeated. There is a very big difference there. The first is saying that there is an enemy that threatens the world. The second says that the world can be saved through the defeat of a certain enemy, but it does not at all hint that such an enemy exists in the first place. Yes, Fiamma's problem is that such an enemy does not exist. Therefore, Fiamma made a plan that would bring out this enemy. Of course, we all know how that turned out. Why don't we go over Volume 22 again?

Spoiler for Broken_Right_Hand:

“There are two goals for this Third World War. The first is to collect the necessary resources and equipment needed for my plan, using the pretence ‘necessary for war efforts’; the second is the ceremony to drag out the ‘enemy that must be defeated’.”

The ‘Third Arm’.

That ‘symbol’ which set him apart from the rest of the world seems to pulsates with light, bright one moment and dark the next.

“No matter how much blades that could slay demons you possess, if the incarnation of evil doesn’t show up in front of you, you cannot slay it.”

“I should have already said this before, back at the Elizerina Independent Republic: my Right Hand will release the suitable power output as is necessary, from the needs at the time, matching the trials and the difficulty. No matter it be laser weaponry or anything else, being unable to match up to me is only natural.”

He’s an monster, Kamijou thought.

This isn’t something like going second in a rock-paper-scissors game. The only example is this – that Fiamma of the Right is omnipotent. Regardless of our side using rock, paper or scissors, if Fiamma uses his hand he would have ‘won’. This has nothing to do with how the fingers on the hand are arranged.

To summarize, he’ll ‘win’ in that instant of conflict.

Then there's the long section in a bit after this that explains exactly what he is trying to do, which starts with this line, up to the end of Part 2:

“Correct. This is no exaggeration. Regardless of it being conquering the world or the elimination of humanity, I didn’t want to do that. Rather, it can be said I’m placed at the place ‘farthest’ from that kind of change. The aim here is to have the things that should exist existing in their rightful place.”

Spoiler for Rebirth_The...:

"...Aren't you just afraid...?"

Kamijou spoke, glaring at Fiamma directly.

"...because you don't even know if you really have 'power enough to save the world'?"

"I don't know what happened in those ages of Gods long ago, but at least in this age, I've never heard of any mythical apocalypses."

They were words looking for a breach, a way to cut into the impregnable Fiamma.

"And if a world-ending danger doesn't come, then you wouldn't be blessed with the chance to exercise this 'power to save the world'. Just like how my 'Imagine Breaker' would seem powerless if I wasn't surrounded by ESPers and mages,"

Basically, this was it.

This was the truly, honestly simple reason why Fiamma of the Right weighted together all these options and mobilised this enormous plan.

"There's no way someone who hasn't saved the world already can know if 'the power to save the world' really exists."

Spoiler for Star_of_Bethlehem:

His Right Hand will change its power according to ‘The strength of the opponent it must defeat’. And currently Fiamma has set his opponent as ‘Named as the Third World War, the disaster which can destroy the entire planet and spread pollution along with large amount of debris into the surrounding space’. ‘Star of Bethlehem’, Misha Kruezhev, and the container for Imagine Breaker, the flesh of that Right Hand. If they can be combined together, and successfully emerge as a stable power – for the Fiamma of the Right as of now, he will then possess the power in this war completely infected by Science and Magic the battle capability to achieve victory with his power alone.

It would be the equivalent of having the power to eliminate all humans on Earth. Though he is using this power to save them, using this power will probably equal ending the history of humans in a instant.

He didn’t open the Gates to Heaven. This world surrounding Fiamma of the Right who has surpassed being called just a ‘holy existence’ are now being changed into the image of Heaven.

With the passing of time the appearance of this place has started to change.

“I was planning on changing the world step by step. But due to the interference from your so-called ‘good will’ power are now being gathered like tectonic plates twisting together, as an unnatural distortion between the sky and the earth is happening.”

“Indeed in this war there are bits and pieces of ‘good will’ happening – but overwhelming destruction will completely cover over that. In the end it will result in a tragedy that no amount of ‘good will’ can prevent… When they realise this despair the ‘ill will’ that existed in the first place will deepen dramatically and become an significant existence.”

Then, the high-concentration of ill will due to the sense of loss will provide a intense stimulus towards some sort of power inside Fiamma of the Right. Fiamma may even become an existence even further than what was predicted. He would stand at the top of all existence and shape the world towards what he wishes it to be.

Then, in the epilogue, we see the very slight difference between Fiamma and Aleister Crowley's methods:

Spoiler for Silent_to_Small_Fire:

“My theories are things which along with the Book of the Law’s completion brought an end to the era of Christianity’s magical methods. Actually, I feel you have done well having managed to reach where you had. You have laid eyes on ‘La persona superiore a Dio’. If you didn’t fix yourself to the Age of Osiris… which are the laws set down by Christianity’s sole influence, and have chosen the greater Age of Horus as your goal you might have reached a position similar to mine.”

“What you had tried to do, outside the format of your basis being too old, is much similar to my own plan. Your idea of preparing a temple with supernatural power, refining the power of the Right Hand within it, then use that power to adjust the thickness of the alignment, and changing the world as the result. What difference does it have from the small world that is Academy City which has a certain type of power sealed into? You only have to perceive your own action in a different perspective. By doing so, you can understand the true nature of that power. Further more... if you could have done that, you could have attained your goal a step faster than me.”

“… Trying to explain what that Right Hand and Imagine Breaker… and ‘Kamijou’… is with nothing more than the level of Christianity. That itself is your failure.”

Anyway, I may not be replying for a long time, so don't expect anything, eh?

[Miraluka]

A great number of figures flew through the air either to protect the empty-handed queen or to act as weapons. The figures were not just magicians. A maid who clearly did not know anything about magic aimed for Carissa from over 10 meters up in the air and a businessman wearing a suit knocked down a giant spike that had been created out of dimensional wreckage. The mixture of the normal world and the magic world created a never-before-seen stage.

Normal badass people.

[I_am_Kami]

Giant Walls Of TEXT

[Miraluka]

Originally Posted by I_am_Kami

Giant Walls Of TEXT

That much color... is so fabulous .

There was a possibility some people interpreted it as the queen borrowing the power of the mysterious dinosaur hiding in Loch Ness.

Ehh.... What?

[Marcus H.]

A maid who clearly did not know anything about magic aimed for Carissa from over 10 meters up in the air and a businessman wearing a suit knocked down a giant spike that had been created out of dimensional wreckage.

Reminds me of the last scene in Shaolin Soccer.