Haruhi Suzumiya - Spoilers & Speculation (for experienced Haruhi Fans only)

[Takamura Mamoru]

To be honest, Haruhi and Kyon contrast each other even to a more extreme degree.
A crack theory is a crack theory, but they really seem like polar opposites.

Although it doesn't seem like they repel each other because of that. More like... complement. They both (sort of) force themselves to be unbalanced people, while they represent the missing balance to each other.

Kyon forces himself to be a rationalist, Haruhi is the embodiment of temperament and creativity. Haruhi wishes to be that force of escapism, Kyon is rational and down-to-earth.

I don't have to mention that deep down they both are respective opposites yet again. Deep down, Kyon still wishes for crazy stuff and cool fiction to exist. Haruhi knows it can't exist. Maybe it could be said that Kyon is in denial while Haruhi is riddled with doubts.

And then we have the character development, Kyon learns that he likes that whacky adventure and Haruhi learns that the "normal" world isn't so bad after all, you just have to try and find your place in it.

Eventually, they may balance each other out, which I believe is also the message of the show. Neither escapism nor this heavy anti-escapism is "right".

Maybe I derailed from the topic now.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

Sigh. We're intruding on what the other threads have the liberty of looking at with endless eight. That's why I want to return to novel 10 discussion.

-snip-

(I really, really don't want to take away from other threads on this subject anymore...)

Forgive me if I don't let your feelings on the matter influence what I want to post about. This is a catch-all topic, and more importantly a naked spoiler zone, which is why we can talk about the metrics of the solution to Endless Eight, since that solution in itself is a spoiler, and thus something of which there is no "liberty" of discussing in those other threads. Therefore nothing is being "taken away from" those threads.

Whatever. I just wanted to get the idea out there.

[TakariCritic]

Whenever people discuss Sasaki, I always get the same feeling that they perceive Sasaki as WANTING to be in the Anti-SOS Brigade.

This is not the case.

Sasaki has already made her feelings known that she doesn't want Haruhi's abilities, nor does she share the feeling of nakama for Kuyoh, Kyouko, or Fujiwara that the SOS Brigade has for each other. The only reason I feel she allowed Kyouko and the others to hang around her was out of politeness, and a small interest of what they had to say about what was happening to Kyon.

Sasaki is not the enemy.

[spawnofthejudge]

Originally Posted by TakariCritic

Sasaki has already made her feelings known that she doesn't want Haruhi's abilities, nor does she share the feeling of nakama for Kuyoh, Kyouko, or Fujiwara that the SOS Brigade has for each other. The only reason I feel she allowed Kyouko and the others to hang around her was out of politeness, and a small interest of what they had to say about what was happening to Kyon.

Sasaki is not the enemy.

Well...

Sasaki is, however, an enemy of Haruhi if only in that she probably has some sort of design for Kyon. In Haruhi's mind, that's unacceptable, if only she knew.

Also, you seem to be implying that anyone beyond the anti-Koizumi (is that one Kyouko? I forget ) seems to actually want to be in the Anti-SOS Dan. None of the others seemed particularly happy to be there. It's a bit of alliance of necessity (the enemy of my enemy is my friend), but built on rather shaky ground. The Anti-SOS isn't an enemy in and of itself... only its constituent members are, and all for different reasons.

Until they manage to have their alliance become stronger than just necessity. Then they might become a threat and entity until themselves/itself. Until then, Kuyoh is a threat because she's a being that can't be directly communicated to by Yuki's faction and just as powerful; Kyouko is a leader for a faction that opposed Koizumi; Fujiwara's a jerk and opposes Mikuru's faction. And Sasaki may be interested in Kyon himself... but not for any reason that might make the others happy. Just the result if she were to... succeed... in an endeavor that made Kyon less close with Haruhi.

My only assumption is that Sasaki's interested in Kyon's time. I don't think it's an awful stretch.

[TakariCritic]

Oh, I know the others don't wish to be there. And we only really know the motives of Kyouko, the other two's desires are still veiled. I can guess though, that the Canopy Domain is interested in the absolute data manipulation Haruhi posseses, and has reached some sort of agreement with the IDTE not to interfere with HARUHI. However, if that ability were transfered to a new subject, they'd be free game.

The way Fujiwara acts and speaks leads me to beleive that he already knows what's going to happen, and is very bitter about it. Just like Yuki was when she sycnchronized all the time. Now, wouldn't it make sense if Fujiwara was angry at Mikuru(big) for being the one who told him what was to happen? He'd of course take action to get revenge, but ultimately he KNOWS that's what he was pre-determined to do and what worse, he knows he won't succeed, making all of his attempts pointless. (Mikuru(big) is a huge bitch if that's the case.)

[panzerfan]

In answering quigonkenny, I have to say that Endless Eight discussion outside has become cyclical feeding itself negatively that, from a positive standpoint makes one want to look at the solution here. I took it negatively so as to think it'd be beating on the one-chapter dead horse.

I think we all stabbed at the matter regarding why that act of having everyone doing homework, being the plot device that terminated the loop, is significant. I mean it becomes so obvious that quigonkenny didn't need to refer back to what I wished to add regarding to the homework specifically anymore.


As for the look at novel 10 onwards...

Originally Posted by TakariCritic

Whenever people discuss Sasaki, I always get the same feeling that they perceive Sasaki as WANTING to be in the Anti-SOS Brigade.

This is not the case...
Sasaki is not the enemy.

This I share in sentiment strongly, given how that she has resolved to adopt a Chamberlain-like viewpoint in novel 9, and her actions are merely that of semi-appeasement towards Fujiwara, Kuyoh and Tachibana for the time being.

spawnofthejudge is correct in that Sasaki has more to gain from Kyon than any other individual, be it even from Haruhi. Pragmatically speaking, Kyon holds the final say in matter that Haruhi will overlook and for someone with an agenda to leave as much decision making to the natural course, it would be Sasaki's interests to lobby Kyon into a liberalist approach.

Canopy domain and data entity both recognize the evolution potential of Haruhi, but as TakariCritic has suggested, it remains to be seen if Snow Mountain is a one-off or a prelude of what's to come from the canopy domain.

Fujiwara we can say with even lesser degree of certainty.

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

As has been said before, the Brigade was fully capable of surviving in the mansion the Canopy Domain set up. Their only apparent target was Nagato, but the damage done to her may have even been self-inflicted.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

As has been said before, the Brigade was fully capable of surviving in the mansion the Canopy Domain set up. Their only apparent target was Nagato, but the damage done to her may have even been self-inflicted.

Nagato was also the only target on Volume 9. Maybe Canopy Domain has a problem with the Integrated Data Entity insted? Or it was just because she is a obstacle? But then, obstacle to what? What is their plans?

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Kimidori was also targeted in Volume 9. While Sasaki gaining Haruhi's abilities may very well be something that would help them out, they seem more interested in taking out the Data-whatever's interfaces.

[spawnofthejudge]

Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane

Kimidori was also targeted in Volume 9. While Sasaki gaining Haruhi's abilities may very well be something that would help them out, they seem more interested in taking out the Data-whatever's interfaces.

I got the implication that they considered them a threat; a slightly nuanced difference between that and simply wanting to take them out.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge

I got the implication that they considered them a threat; a slightly nuanced difference between that and simply wanting to take them out.

Yeah, but why be so gentle on the Snow Mountain? They understand something as abstract as compassion (the Integrated Data Entity surelly do not)? What are their objectves?

[panzerfan]

Until Kuyoh has had her dialogue with Kyon, we can only speculate. Every single character revealed some of their intents to Kyon (subsequently the readers) through such dialogue.

Kyon already has the best summary information on all the parties, including Haruhi, despite it being of his own bias. I wonder what more will be added to that...

[Kogetsu Shirogane]

Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge

I got the implication that they considered them a threat; a slightly nuanced difference between that and simply wanting to take them out.

That's true. Perhaps I worded things incorrectly. What I should have said is that the Canopy Domain's interest at this point in time seems to be mainly hindering or even harming the Data-whatever, with learning what they'd need from Haruhi or Sasaki coming second. While it isn't the most productive strategy, it may just work for them.

Or rather, it would work for them if they weren't designated antagonists.

[Ithekro]

Perhaps instead of just observing Haruhi they wish to provide a situation and then observe. Instead of waiting for something to happen and then observe what happens, they will cause something to happen and observe the reaction (much like what Ryoko was attempting). However there are questions. Do these attempts damage IDE aliens or does Yuki's faction actually react first by countering as much of the incident as possible by making an escape mechanism so that they can maintain their own pattern of strick observation without intervention towards Haruhi. (and thus keep Haruhi from reacting to thing but instead being the cause of things to happen).

My question on the rest of the anti-SOS-dan: If the plot resolves in book 10 with Kyon staying with Haruhi, then what point will the anti-SOS-dan have in the aftermath. They should no longer be able to simply attempt to get him to switch sides/transfere power. Thus what is their purpose after that?

Will they remains as an antagonist faction in a super villians fashion, or will it be more mundane with them just being a rival club in certain activities?

I just can't see them remaining a unified force if the mission for Kyon fails. Unless the story remains branched with one having them fail and one having them succeed. Or if they manage to gain a version of Kyon...but then the mission to gain Kyon is just to transfere Haruhi's powers...so that does not entirely work either.

Unless the anti-SOS-dan is simply a way to end the story. They manage to transfere Haruhi's powers but remake the universe so that the powers don't exist. Either all the non-humans vanish, or become "normal" thus allowing for Kyon and Haruhi to continue as a normal relationship. But that is a rather boring way to end the series as well as ending the mysteries by wiping them out is a rather shotty way to get rid of them.

[Tyabann]

The Anti-SOS have the makings of recurring villains. Perhaps what happens in Vol. 10 forces them to stick together... or maybe they all just transfer into Sasaki's school.

Man that would rather suck for her, huh?

Although I think what they need to continue to be important is their own Kyon to narrate stories about them. That would be awesome.

...There ARE two Kyons in Vol. 9/10...

[panzerfan]

(Points Kaisos to the issues within Quantum Mechanics respective of Kyon A and Kyon B)

Takamura Mamoru earlier mentions how that Kyon and Haruhi have been opposites of each other, and I think that it is true to some extent. He and Sasaki share alot of common ground about how that they both have doubts regarding reckless reshaping of things, that they both are cynical regarding their individual ability to affect the grand outcome.

However, Kyon has become discontent with his own doubts and cynicism (due to Haruhi) whereas Sasaki embraces them.

I actually view that Sasaki's biggest motivation in having an anti-SOS is to keep all of these meddling interests around her in interfering the normal flow of the universe, and she then can ask Kyon to approach the Haruhi situation, through talking to Kyon about how it is important that he considers the post-Haruhi world and make the provisions so that the universe won't lose its heading after having the irreplacible Haruhi gone one day.

Haruhi on the other hand, might have in her interest, the expansion of SOS, thus meaning that she might want to, when opportunity arises and she becomes aware of Kuyoh, Tachibana and Fujiwawa, to subjugate them all as to make the universe more fun that way.

This is where I imagine that a delicate balancing act of sleeping next to the Haruhi elephant will play out for both Sasaki and Kyon. Sasaki has to keep a motley crew away from Haruhi somehow so that the rest of the anti-SOS can achieve nothing, as she maintains partnership with Kyon while painfully aware of the relationship he has with Haruhi.

[Tyabann]

Who says Haruhi can actually die? Ever?

[Takamura Mamoru]

Who says she can't?
It's sorta like wanting to jump into a black hole. You're not really sure what will happen, but you don't wanna try it.

[Tyabann]

"This world moves according to the desires of Haruhi Suzumiya", right?

If she doesn't want to die, I don't think she can.

[panzerfan]

And that's the thing. Rationally speaking, the impact of losing such a change agent is incalculable, and even if the prospect of it ever coming to that point (through natural causes and whatnot) is not certain, there exists this possibility for Haruhi is still mortal.

For when Haruhi stops, the data entity loses an evolutionary potential, the espers would lose the very thing that forced them into being and even if the future does exists, is it the Asahina view or the Fujiwara view that's more accepted? The impact on humanity would weight in from looking at the time travelers from Sasaki's vantage point.

I don't think Sasaki can make the call on whether if she can die or stops, but she definitely can see the problem coming if Haruhi stops or dies.