(L) Tiger & Bunny (Sunrise)

[Tenchi Ryu]

Spoiler for season finale:

Wow, this was probably the worst episode, too many ASSPULLS....just too many. Cliches went off the wall, and once again the explanations just fell off. The way they "revived" Tiger was absolutely terrible, including the suit signal explanation. Really disappointed, but a season 2 makes it hopeful they can come with better material next time. Like someone else said, the first 21-22 episodes were AMAZING, then it started to fall off. Maybe if they get some time to rethink, they can return to the awesomeness that was Tiger and Bunny.

The only thing I really liked was that we are shown that even 2 YEARS after this series started, Karina is STILL hungry for some Kotetsu loving, and as a Karina X Kotetsu shipper, this is excellent news for me. And she should be 18 now, so their is NO more barriers, all you anti Blue Rose and Tiger shippers can SUCK IT lol.

All in all, very disappointing ending, but overall was a excellent series, it gets a 8 out of 10 for me.

SN: Who else was like F#$K YEA when Lunatic ROASTED MAverick's triflin corrupt ass, DAT MOTHERF#$KA was TOASTY XD

[Triple_R]

Spoiler for Episode 25 thoughts:

Almost everything before the timeskip was fantastic.

The bit before the OP, including using the BGM from the 2nd ED, was a very nice touch, and helped to continue to cast the image of "Kotetsu is dead".

With this in mind, I really have to applaud Sunrise on how they made it seem very possible that Kotetsu was really dead, right up until he came to his daughter's rescue.

The fight scenes between the mass-produced H-01s and the heroes was great! Incredibly enjoyable to watch. In particular, Blue Rose and Dragon Kid have never look better, as their powers looked extremely cool against the very dark background.

Maverick and Rotwang looking all dramatically evil, standing above on the balcony, was also a lot of fun for the comic book fan in me. That shows once again how Sunrise gets it, they get what makes superheroes and supervillains work. Maverick and Rotwang were handled superbly in this episode, including Maverick's perfectly timed betrayal of Rotwang. Rotwang's dramatic fall was the best one I've seen since The Joker's plummet in the original Tim Burton Batman movie. Great stuff!

The timing of Kotetsu's return was similarly great, as was his line. The scene of Bunny, Kaeda, and Karina all crowding around him to let out some tears was nice. The best buddy, the daughter, and (hopefully) the eventual love interest. Smart choices, Sunrise.

Maverick's speech was a good one. There is some cold hard logic to his words, and it makes him a much more compelling villain that he himself truly believed what he said there. His decision to use his powers to fry his brains, and basically turn himself into a drooling vegetable, is very in-character. Maverick is a proud man, and I don't think he wanted to be fully aware of being dragged away in hand-cuffs like a common criminal. He'd rather fry his brains than suffer that indignity.

The only bad thing about it is that it makes Lunatic's killing of Maverick seem a bit redundant, but ah well, at least Lunatic was given something to do.

Agnes playing a key role I'm fine with. Actually, it was a good way of countering Maverick's final trump card (his reputation) while also simultaneously clearing Kotetsu's name for the entire world.

Kaeda calling her father cool, and that leading to Kotetsu and Bunny opting to retire, was well-done. It was heartwarming, but it wasn't overdone, and it felt very natural.

So, again, up to the time-skip... awesome stuff! 5 stars, Sunrise! There is a nitpick I could make about Maverick/Rotwang, but it really is "fridge logic", so I'm going to let it slide.


Now then... post-time skip. Here is where I have sentiments similar to MeggieMay's.

I didn't want Kotetsu to die, but I kind of did want him to ride off into the sunset, so to speak. I felt that the victory over Maverick/Rotwang, and Kaeda calling him cool, was the ideal exclamation mark for Kotetsu's career to end off on.

On the flip-side, I'm glad that Barnaby figuring out that code made him become a hero again. Barnaby is a young man, in the prime of his life, so him finding a reason to continue on as a hero after a brief retirement was good to see.

I think I know what Sunrise was going for with the post-time skip part, but at the same time, it made the episode seem almost a bit too lighthearted to me.

Still, it had some nice moments, and one that stood out to me was Blue Rose admiring Kotetsu from afar. Based on the words of the other heroes, it sounds like she's really leaped into the lead lately, and yet she still admires the old man Kotetsu who doesn't know when to hang them up. There is something heartwarming about that.

So yeah, major mixed feelings about the post-time skip part.

Nonetheless, an excellent finale overall. 9/10 for me.


Tiger and Bunny will unquestionably go down as a sentimental favorite for me. It so often awoke the child in me, the child that collected Spiderman, Superman, and Batman comics on a regular basis, and just loved all the cool campy cheesiness of superheroes and supervillains.

The Japanese have completely captured the beautiful spirit of a genre that North America pioneered, and I tip my hat to them as such.

I eagerly await the sequel to this.

[Byakou]

Well this was a nice series, but yuri didn't get enough airtime. I hope there's a sequel soon.

[Sackett]

In this episode we learned the most important lesson:

Always check for a pulse!

Don't go declaring someone dead until you check the vital signs.

That's the public service announcement from Tiger & Bunny this episode.

[Westlo]

lol Blue Rose, gl next season though I doubt Sunrise/Bandai will bite the hand that feeds them, in this case fujoshis.

Spoiler:

Originally Posted by Byakou

Well this was a nice series, but yuri didn't get enough airtime. I hope there's a sequel soon.

Don't worry they'll be a sequel, the series obviously went in that direction and it is consistently selling near 30,000 copies per volume which puts makes it elite. It's currently the 18th best selling tv series from 2000 onwards, still has a chance of outselling Lucky Star which is 17th... 29,146 avg for LS compared to 28,604 for T&B after 4 volumes... would have for sure if Bandai didn't completely mess up the release of the first volume.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Westlo

lol Blue Rose, gl next season though I doubt Sunrise/Bandai will bite the hand that feeds them, in this case fujoshis.

How much of Tiger and Bunny's popularity is due to fujoshis, and how much is due to older otakus who relate to Kotetsu? My suspicion is that the latter group accounts for the larger portion of the show's popularity, but I don't know. What's your thoughts here?

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

How much of Tiger and Bunny's popularity is due to fujoshis, and how much is due to older otakus who relate to Kotetsu?

A brief look through Pixiv should answer your question. Sweet Haruhi, it's hard not to run into pics pushing TxB as a ship -- a fact that was spoofed in the most recent chapter of Genshiken Niidaime. Good luck Karina is right.

[ars89]

Well Tiger was indeed alive, funny how they forgot to check his pulse. Like how he saved Kaede at the end and knocked down Maverick. The Dr died as well. Nice job by Saito activating the safety mode. Thank you Lunatic for killing off Maverick. Nice job by Agnes to get it onto Hero TV.

Paolin in the dress was so cute. Lol the book Karina was reading. Tiger became the minute man. Lol how he's in the second league. Lol Bunny returning to catch Kotetsu like that. So the only thing left is Ouroboros is still out there. Wonder what Ben is going to do at the company now, wonder if Saito meant anything by him having a visitor. Hopefully if their is a second season Lunatic get's more screen time.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

A brief look through Pixiv should answer your question.

Frankly, I'm skeptical of putting much commercial import in that. How many of these artists are also buying the Tiger and Bunny DVDs/Blu-Rays?

Anyway...

Spoiler for Karina discussions delving into Episode 25 spoilers:

It would really suck for Kotetsu/Karina to be blocked purely to please fujoshis. Kotetsu is clearly a heterosexual man - The evidence there is quite extensive. So any yaoi relationship between him and Barnaby is a complete dead-end within the canon narrative itself. So the idea of a total fantasy getting in the way of a genuinely plausible romance that could be wonderful if handled right, is very disheartening to me. I hope that Sunrise has the balls to turn Kotetsu/Karina into a canon couple if they think they can pull it off well.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

How much of Tiger and Bunny's popularity is due to fujoshis, and how much is due to older otakus who relate to Kotetsu? My suspicion is that the latter group accounts for the larger portion of the show's popularity, but I don't know. What's your thoughts here?

The success of Tiger and Bunny in Japan is nearly solely due to Fujoshi's, they have a "hive mind" attribute and they don't want to be left out of the current "in thing". Seeing Tiger & Blue Rose paired up in an eventual second season would surprise me almost as much as if the K-ON! girls got themselves boyfriends. Tiger & Bunny also shows that fujoshi's will buy Blurays, before T&B a lot of Fujoshi aimed shows only came out on DVD, they never had the option to go with BD.. but T&B has proved it's a viable option.

And yeah check Pixiv for proof... it's generally pretty indicative of how a fanbase feels.. take Nisio's Medaka Box manga for one, one character who was introduced as the antagonist of the second arc has like more than a quarter of the fan art, when the 2nd character poll for was published in WSJ 2 weeks ago he won in dominate fashion, 3000+ votes to 900 for second place. He went from 200 votes in the first character poll to over 3000 and he's the most loved character on Pixiv.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Westlo

And yeah check Pixiv for proof...

But that's not proof of anything. What hard data do you have proving that the customer-base of the Tiger and Bunny Blu-Rays is primarily fujoshis?

Or is this just an educated guess on your part? If it's an educated guess, I respect that, but it's not proof. It's nothing definitive.


Edit: Character popularity polls aren't proof of much either. K-On is currently getting killed in SaiMoe while it simultaneously is going increasingly mainstream (i.e. airing on the Japanese Disney Channel, and getting a movie soon).

[Natsuki Hyuga]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Frankly, I'm skeptical of putting much commercial import in that. How many of these artists are also buying the Tiger and Bunny DVDs/Blu-Rays?

Not trying to be a Devil's advocate, but I am quite sure that fujoshis do not only compose of these artists, in particular see the horde in Twitter. As much I believe that general older fans are buying them too, I have little doubt that half of the sales consist of the fujoshi part of the fandom (just to set a benchmark, BL anime like Junjou Romantica get 10k sales in DVD for season 1... I think). It's not really about how the fans are being divided, but who will shell out more money to buy the BD/merchandises...

Just so you know, it really didn't hit many people about T&B even existing (in regards to JP fandom) until Pixiv started the fare. Out of comedic purpose or enthralled by it. I have no doubts that Sunrise themselves have pretty much sniffed it with the general merchandising directions focusing a little more on erm, certain aspects of combination.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Edit: Character popularity polls aren't proof of much either. K-On is currently getting killed in SaiMoe while it simultaneously is going increasingly mainstream (i.e. airing on the Japanese Disney Channel, and getting a movie soon).

SaiMoe is a horrible thing to gauge popularity with in the first place, heavyweights get sniped as soon as they're up against an opponent who can put up a decent fight. Look @ what happened to Homura...When a heavyweight wins it's because they had an easy run to the finals for the most part.

As for further proof, I really can't be stuffed finding official confirmation of what everyone knows anyway. I spent 30 seconds looking and found this.

http://seventhstyle.com/2011/06/10/t...s-this-season/

That poll was a dengeki character poll IIRC. As for proof I guess you can look @ the amount of doujin and the merchandise angle for the show. I can't be stuffed so let me turn the tables around...

How much of Tiger and Bunny's popularity is due to fujoshis, and how much is due to older otakus who relate to Kotetsu? My suspicion is that the latter group accounts for the larger portion of the show's popularity, but I don't know. What's your thoughts here?

What makes you think the latter is a larger reason for the show's popularity?

EDIT - IIRC the restreams.. on ustreamo.. which happened after the episode aired on tv was an increasingly popular place for fujoshi's to watch the show together. The numbers it was getting was growing by the weeks. The preorders on amazon really jumped up after Episode 5's... "birthday gift". Also the extra's are the sort of information fujoshi's really love and the crazy prices for the under supplied Vol 1 was more than likely due to the fujoshi frenzy.

[Myssa Rei]

Triple R: Leaving the issue of fujoshis aside (and yes, the amount of Pixiv tags can be used to track fandom trends, like in K-On, where the vast majority of the pics reflect how the creepy aspect of fandom would like that the girls NEVER leave high school and ignore the college continuation ever happened),wasn't mentioned in a recent interview that Karina will NEVER get any from Koutetsu?

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Triple R: Leaving the issue of fujoshis aside wasn't mentioned in a recent interview that Karina will NEVER get any from Koutetsu?

Wouldn't that have applied to Karina as she is now though? S2 Karina is older so ignoring outside factors she actually has a chance.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Westlo

SaiMoe is a horrible thing to gauge popularity with in the first place,

Then why are you even citing popularity contests at all? That is part of what SaiMoe is after all - a popularity contest. One of the more prominent ones at that.

What makes you think the latter is a larger reason for the show's popularity?

You hinted at it yourself - Fujoshis typically don't buy anime DVDs/Blu-Rays in large numbers, to the best of our knowledge. Yaoi anime typically doesn't do that well on DVD or Blu-Ray, and this we know for a fact.

It's long been the case that yaoi dominates much of manga, while anime is dominated by a male audience that isn't very much into yaoi.

If you're arguing that Tiger and Bunny is just about an unprecedented exception to the rule there, then yes, it will take a lot to convince me of that.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Triple R: Leaving the issue of fujoshis aside (and yes, the amount of Pixiv tags can be used to track fandom trends, like in K-On, where the vast majority of the pics reflect how the creepy aspect of fandom would like that the girls NEVER leave high school and ignore the college continuation ever happened)

And lo and behold, Kakifly put the girls in College anyway. I doubt we would be seeing that if it was felt that the move would be commercial suicide.

Also, that's only the "creepy aspect of the fandom". It's clearly not all fans, or even necessarily the majority of them.

[~BC~]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It would really suck for Kotetsu/Karina to be blocked purely to please fujoshis.
[/SPOILER]

If it doesn't happen I doubt it'll have anything to do with fujoshis (jokes about influencing the writers seems popular in the fandom though). Going by polls or internet popularity is stretching it. Even if we assume that half the sales were due to that fanbase (which sounds like a gross exaggeration) why would Sunrise discount the other half. Besides it's not like fujoshi can't enjoy a little het romance. Karina->Kotetsu is still alive after all this time and I doubt they'd keep bringing it up if they weren't going to delve into it further. It could just be a prelude to her real romance...with Barnaby.

[Westlo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Then why are you even citing popularity contests at all? That is part of what SaiMoe is after all - a popularity contest. One of the more prominent ones at that.

You brought up popularity contests first by mentioning SaiMoe, I just explained to you why SaiMoe is a horrible gauge for popularity. I did not say that popularity contests/lists is not a good indicator, I said that SaiMoe is flawed due to external reasons. Do I really need to list all the top contenders who have been sniped off by fans of other characters?

Do I really need to explain how SaiMoe is different from a typical character poll? I mean really? You're an intelligent guy, figure it out.

You hinted at it yourself - Fujoshis typically don't buy anime DVDs/Blu-Rays in large numbers, to the best of our knowledge. Yaoi anime typically doesn't do that well on DVD or Blu-Ray, and this we know for a fact.

Tiger & Bunny is proof that Fujoshi's buy Blurays, you want to know why they never did before? Because they were never given the option in the first place. The way the market is going is that most shows will now by DVD/BD and heavily aimed otaku shows will be strictly Bluray, see the upcoming Horizon as an example.

It's long been the case that yaoi dominates much of manga, while anime is dominated by a male audience that isn't very much into yaoi.

Than when it comes to Macross Frontier (a show that sells on avg 15,000 more copies per volume than T&B) why is their more Sheryl and/or Ranka doujins with Alto than Alto and Michael for example?

If you're arguing that Tiger and Bunny is just about an unprecedented exception to the rule there, then yes, it will take a lot to convince me of that.

How about you provide proof that Tiger & Bunny Japanese fandom isn't powered by fujoshis. You like to ask for proof yourself but you don't seem quick to give out anything to back your statements.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I doubt we would be seeing that if it was felt that the move would be commercial suicide.

Neither here nor there, but take note that the movie will be taking place during the time before and sometime after they graduate, but NOT during their actual college years. There's a difference, and it still draws in the moe crowd who like their high school girls to stay in high school.

I think looking for concrete sales figures per fandom segment is going to be hard to pinpoint because, frankly, DVD/Blu-Ray purchases aren't seperated by whether or not a 30-year-old salaryman buys a volume or your teenaged-to-colleged aged fangirl. Trends seem to lean towards the former as, but it would be seriously remiss to ignore the latter, and Sunrise certainly won't. *remembers homoerotic Gundam W merchandise, ditto with Gundam 00 S1*

And no question: Tiger and Bunny is VERY popular with fujoshi. To a disturbing degree.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Westlo

You brought up popularity contests first...

No, I didn't.

Like ~Bc~ said, going by polls or internet popularity is really stretching it. I've seen shows that were heavily hyped on the internet, and bombed hard on DVD and/or Blu-Ray (example: Umineko).

Tiger & Bunny is proof that Fujoshi's buy Blurays,

No, it's not. And there's several reasons why:

1. Sunrise has produced many commercial hit anime shows. Numerous Gundams, Cowboy Bebop, Mai HiME, and Code Geass. Sunrise itself does have a fanbase. It doesn't buy all their shows, but it tends to gravitate towards ones with good marketing and high production values. Who's to say that's not what is going on here with Tiger and Bunny?

2. With Point 1 in mind, you don't think that the mecha nature of Tiger and Bunny's outfits could be appealing to hardcore mecha fans, the ones that recognize Sunrise as the biggest provider of mecha anime of all-time?

3. Given the first two points, there is a perfectly viable explanation for Tiger and Bunny's good sales that has nothing to do with fujoshis.

4. Given Point 3, Tiger and Bunny's commercial success can not alone be used as proof of fujoshis being willing to buy anime DVDs/Blu-Rays in large numbers. Not unless you have hard data backing up such a claim.

5. Given Point 4, it is yet unprecedented for fujoshis to buy anime on DVDs or Blu-Rays in large numbers, which brings us right back to my previous point to you.

you want to know why they never did before? Because they were never given the option in the first place.

There have been yaoi anime put out on DVD and/or Blu-Ray.

How about you provide proof that Tiger & Bunny Japanese fandom isn't powered by fujoshis.

I never said that it definitely wasn't. I've expressed skepticism over the idea, that's all.

I asked you the question that I did because I'm not certain of this, and would like to know what evidence there is for the Tiger and Bunny Japanese fandom being powered by fujoshis.

Frankly, the evidence you've presented so far is circumstantial at best.

It can support a reasonable educated guess, perhaps, but it certainly doesn't warrant your level of certitude on the question I asked you.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Neither here nor there, but take note that the movie will be taking place during the time before and sometime after they graduate, but NOT during their actual college years. There's a difference, and it still draws in the moe crowd who like their high school girls to stay in high school.

This could simply be a matter of the movie-makers wanting the movie to be anime original, a fresh story that may generate more interest precisely because its fresh.

And no question: Tiger and Bunny is VERY popular with fujoshi. To a disturbing degree.

Internet popularity doesn't say a whole lot, imo. A show's consumer-base can be considerably different from its customer-base (due to piracy, of course).


Here's something that might change my mind in our discussion: An actual article (from ANN, in a newspaper, wherever) discussing how popular Tiger and Bunny is with teenage girls and/or young women. Posters providing anecdotal evidence of seeing lots of girls/young women buying lots of Tiger and Bunny merchandise.

That's what I'm looking for, if you want to change my mind. Something from the real world, not something just on the internet.

What convinced me that K-On! had become popular with a younger female audience was evidence like this - real world evidence.