Fate/Zero - Speculation & Theories (for F/SN Game Players)

[Grey]

IIRC, it wasn't Rin that made the decision. There was a line where Saber was thinking: in one she decided to leave, and the other she decided to stay.

In this case I think it boils down to prana and contract. The Grail doesn't matter--IIRC it's just for the initial summoning. If Saber has any prana left she'll be like 5th War Caster. She might be losing prana like crazy but she could stay to try and drag an answer from Kiritsugu. If Gil interferes, there we go. Fight time.

[mAc Chaos]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

But if you think about it, the result of the flames was because of the grail's destruction, so Saber should be there. If anything, the VN lacked foresight which you can't place blame since Nasu didn't plan on Fate/Zero being written when he did Fate.

It was supposed to be from Kotomine's wish, or what he thought it was.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Grey

If Saber has any prana left she'll be like 5th War Caster. She might be losing prana like crazy but she could stay to try and drag an answer from Kiritsugu. If Gil interferes, there we go. Fight time.

Well, Saber isn't aware of the Grail's nature in F/SN, so an answer from Kiritsugu is something she won't get (either that or she will but she's just that ridiculously obtuse about it).

That reminds me though, in F/SN it was stated that she and Kiritsugu only talked to each other three times throughout the duration of the entire 4th War, and I'm not sure if we're not yet to see the last one. I'm assuming the first two were a) When she was first summoned and b) After Lancer's death. Also I imagine Command Spells don't count. So unless I'm forgetting/misjudging something, there should still be one exchange between them left...

[Archer]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

It was supposed to be from Kotomine's wish, or what he thought it was.

The fire wasn't necessarily caused by Kotomine's wish. All he said was that he got what he wished for, but that doesn't mean the Grail itself granted it.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

That reminds me though, in F/SN it was stated that she and Kiritsugu only talked to each other three times throughout the duration of the entire 4th War, and I'm not sure if we're not yet to see the last one. I'm assuming the first two were a) When she was first summoned and b) After Lancer's death. Also I imagine Command Spells don't count. So unless I'm forgetting/misjudging something, there should still be one exchange between them left...

Maybe she counts when she reported to him that she couldn't find Iri. You know, "I spent the whole night searching and found nothing."
"I see."

And there's number 3.

[Touko]

Originally Posted by Grey

IIRC, it wasn't Rin that made the decision. There was a line where Saber was thinking: in one she decided to leave, and the other she decided to stay.

In this case I think it boils down to prana and contract. The Grail doesn't matter--IIRC it's just for the initial summoning. If Saber has any prana left she'll be like 5th War Caster. She might be losing prana like crazy but she could stay to try and drag an answer from Kiritsugu. If Gil interferes, there we go. Fight time.

The problem is mana.

Spoiler:

Lancelot beat the brains out of her, and that Excalibur shot just drained her dry.

Normally, just by him/herself (without Independent Action), a Servant can last a couple of hours.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Well, Saber isn't aware of the Grail's nature in F/SN, so an answer from Kiritsugu is something she won't get (either that or she will but she's just that ridiculously obtuse about it).

That reminds me though, in F/SN it was stated that she and Kiritsugu only talked to each other three times throughout the duration of the entire 4th War, and I'm not sure if we're not yet to see the last one. I'm assuming the first two were a) When she was first summoned and b) After Lancer's death. Also I imagine Command Spells don't count. So unless I'm forgetting/misjudging something, there should still be one exchange between them left...

No. The three times are the three Command Seals. Remember, Saber also states when she mentions the three times "I don't think I need to say when those three times were."

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by GDB

Maybe she counts when she reported to him that she couldn't find Iri. You know, "I spent the whole night searching and found nothing."
"I see."

And there's number 3.

Heh, I thought that might be it, but in the anime at least Kiritsugu didn't even say "I see." and just gave her the complete silent treatment.

Originally Posted by Kaiba

No. The three times are the three Command Seals. Remember, Saber also states when she mentions the three times "I don't think I need to say when those three times were."

Huh, didn't remember that. If it was indeed supposed to be the Command Spells, then that's a little disappointing. Thought for sure their debate after Lancer's death would count, though I suppose it can be seen as Kiritsugu just talking to Iri, even if Saber was the topic.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Heh, I thought that might be it, but in the anime at least Kiritsugu didn't even say "I see." and just gave her the complete silent treatment.

Ha, true. I thought he had at least given her an ああ, but he did just sit there.

[Grey]

I heard Shirou's lines in the preview. I guess we'll get some after-war epilogue because we heard Shirou remembering when Kiritsugu saved him from the fire.

Now I'm wondering if that scene will be used as the end of Kiritsugu's story. Maybe we'll see a bit more Illya too? Hard to say where how they'll spread the focus.

And that scene where Kiritsugu meets the Grail. I'd like to see how that would have played if Avenger hadn't been summoned. "Saves the World" End? One small change to the backstory. Imagining it blows me away.

[GDB]

There's no guarantee he'd have made it that far if the Grail weren't corrupted. After all, if it weren't corrupted, a different Caster would've been summoned. If a different Caster had been summoned, there may not have been a need for Lancer to break one of his lances. And even if Kiritsugu still did what he did, it'd have still changed the landscape of the war.

Granted, plot reasons would've made him refuse it anyway for some reason.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Grey

Maybe we'll see a bit more Illya too? Hard to say where how they'll spread the focus.

Well they kind of have to address the issue of Kiritsugu never going back to Illya. Of course, it's easy to imagine Acht and the Einzberns saw him as a traitor for destroying the Grail and simply didn't allow him to come anywhere near them, not to mention Kiritsugu perhaps being plagued by the guilt of sacrificing her (even if it was all an illusion). Still, would be nice to see something.

[GDB]

The game made it clear that he went back for her, but wasn't able to get her due to the curse afflicting him. If I recall, he tried every year until his death. I think Shirou was under the impression he was just globe trotting for some ladies.

[Grey]

Originally Posted by GDB

There's no guarantee he'd have made it that far if the Grail weren't corrupted. After all, if it weren't corrupted, a different Caster would've been summoned. If a different Caster had been summoned, there may not have been a need for Lancer to break one of his lances. And even if Kiritsugu still did what he did, it'd have still changed the landscape of the war.

Eh? It's Avenger's taint that let darker "heroes" be summoned?

Let's forget that part of the backstory too. Give me an awesome, "Saves the World" ending.

Or at least give me happy Einzbern-Emiya family time in Prisma Illya.

Originally Posted by GDB

The game made it clear that he went back for her, but wasn't able to get her due to the curse afflicting him. If I recall, he tried every year until his death. I think Shirou was under the impression he was just globe trotting for some ladies.

It did? I remember Shirou thought Kiritsugu traveled a lot. But that's it.

That's pretty cool Kiritsugu.

[DragoZERO]

I expected to see Saber's eyes go all yellow with madness like Lancers did after the command was given. Maybe she'll do that afterwards. I remember seeing some art with her eyes like that, not sure if it was official or not.

Originally Posted by GDB

The game made it clear that he went back for her, but wasn't able to get her due to the curse afflicting him. If I recall, he tried every year until his death. I think Shirou was under the impression he was just globe trotting for some ladies.

Did they say that? Man I either forgot or just didn't comprehend SO much. I am really going to play this again sometime soon.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by GDB

The game made it clear that he went back for her, but wasn't able to get her due to the curse afflicting him. If I recall, he tried every year until his death.

Huh, I did not remember that. Yet another factor to add to the endless misery of Kiritsugu's life, I suppose.

Well, at least Shirou gets to amend for that in HF in a way.

[Grey]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

Huh, I did not remember that. Yet another factor to add to the endless misery of Kiritsugu's life, I suppose.

Well, at least Shirou gets to amend for that in HF in a way.

UBW Shirou too. And there's no weight on his mind from throwing away his ideals. Or killing Saber.

Hard to say with Fate Shirou. If he's the one that reaches Avalon in Last Episode then he does okay too.

I guess it's Illya who inherits Kiritsugu's misfortune.

[Vicious108]

Well, I was referring specifically to the fact that in HF Shirou bonds with Illya as a brother, thus healing her hurt feelings over Kiritsugu's apparent abandonment of her. It's the only route where Illya gets that much, even if in the end she still dies in it (because, yeah, being Illya is suffering too).

[Ithekro]

Well Grail-kun is a bastard and will kill his container in nearly all cases from what I understand.

[SRanger]

oh, I didn't know the tainted grail was the reason why more 'anti-heroish' classes were summoned