2007-01-07, 01:16
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Link #1101 |
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Episode 11 was weird for me. I had always considered Shuu and Hagu's love for each other to be the platonic kind of a guardian and child. The carefully placed scenes of him visiting her while she was wearing her high school uniform and asking her if she wanted to come learn at his school lend to this.
Episode 11 you also learn that Hagu cares deeply for Morita and could love him but she chooses to draw. I really don't get how the writer made Morita with his cash and love for Hagu become a choice between him and her drawing again. This seems like an unimaginative way to push them apart. Why can't they be together and he take care of her? Are we to believe that loved ones don't nurse each other in Japan? Anyway, few things move me to posting and this episode was one of them. It was so disgusting and so outrageous that I'm still in shock. For a blood relative and guardian (they share the same last name for god's sake) to admit that he is in love with his adoptive daughter is just outrageous. I sped through episode 12 and saw his conversation with Ayu where she asked him when this happened and he responded about how he wasn't sure when it happened and it was embarassing to admit...so there's no misunderstanding here. These two end up in some sort of sick quid pro quo incestuous relationship at the end? With her rejecting Morita, this series goes against the idealistic form of falling in love and caring for somebody...for this? To rage against the responsibilities of those with talent? What a trite and boring concept. Hagu chose a relationship with her father instead of one with the creative Morita. To create a such a pessimistic framework where love is stamped out in favor of a relationship where just the basic human necessities to surivive is met is so cold and unpoetic which is ironic in a series that was seemingly pretentious in its overuse of narration. This is coming from somebody who think Louise is the cutest thing and loves Shana. This series is sick. Completely counter-productive to any sort of intellectual stimulation. You have to ask, "where are they going?" and "ok..so what was the point?" and I honestly don't think that either is answered. This series is a tremendous waste of time. It's also sick and perverse... (Disagree with me if you want, but I'm right. Blood relatives in father daughter roles who share the last name have no business starting romantic relationships.) |
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2007-01-07, 01:25
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Link #1103 | |
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A romantic relationship with the person she loved was foregone for a relationship where just the basic human necessities for survival and that is so pessimistic. It's just poor. |
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2007-01-07, 01:50
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Link #1104 | ||
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2007-01-07, 02:04
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Link #1105 | ||
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2007-01-07, 02:25
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Link #1106 | ||
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2007-01-07, 02:38
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Link #1107 | ||
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Shuu was willing to give his life in return for whatever she was willing to give. He said that just being with her was enough for him but if she was willing to give more then he was ready to receive...He's such a snake. It's his way of maintaining a guilt-free conscience. He is one messed up person. He's practically a textbook headcase. I can just picture him later on "always there for her" and removing any possibility of finding another lover but "never pressuring" her for physical intimacy. Give me a break. What kind of life is that? She has all the choice but none of the choice? As her elder he is totally irresponsible. This is just a sick scenario. If anything I pity her for being a shutin with such horrible family experiences throughout her lifetime. She deserves better. |
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2007-01-07, 03:15
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Link #1108 | |
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Med Student
Join Date: Jul 2006
Age: 40
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i agree with ur thoughts on hagu and shuuji, and it ruined the series for me, and if u look back thru the pages u'll see raging posts back and forth from alot of folk that were mad about this. And the sad thing is that this anime would literally have been perfect if not for the hagu and shuuji thing. it would have been a friggin masterpiece... so sad... and so gross... o well... i like to block that out of my head. lol. |
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2007-01-07, 05:10
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Link #1109 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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It is nice to see when someone acknowledges that Morita was in no shape emotionally to help Hagu. He was in the middle of his own crisis. From my own perspective, I thought the end was fitting and right. Hagu may not have made the "romantic" choice but she did make a logical and good choice for herself. She may have loved Morita, but she shows her maturity when she recognizes that he has his own life to work on and she has hers. Besides, where in the series was it shown that being with Morita made Hagu feel comfortable and at ease? No doubt that they were in love with each other's talent and infatuated with each other, but when push came to shove, the person who was there for Hagu when she needed someone was never Morita. Shuu even asked for Morita's help at least two times and Morita begged off. Morita was interesting and creative, but stable, he was not. As for Shuu, fans who bash him should cut him a little slack. After all that he had done for Hagu and that Morita had witnessed Shuu doing for Hagu, it was insulting of Morita to even ask Shuu if he loved Hagu. Besides, why should Morita's romantic, but untested, love be given more value than Shuu's quieter yet steadier love? My own feeling about Shuu's "confession" is that it was done to 1) state the obvious and 2) to get Morita's head out of his ass. Shuu loving Hagu is a given. Whether it is romantic or not romantic is a moot point since Shuu obviously has no expectations of his love being rewarded except in the form of Hagu getting better and continuing her work. Myself, I don't think it is romantic, but neither do I think it is based solely on a familial relationship. Shuu loves her because he loves her and her art and he wants to see her fulfill her dream and be happy too. It is also clear in the last episode that Shuu does not expect that Hagu will stay with him forever and that he does expect that Morita to come back into their lives when he's stronger and able to be the person that Hagu needs. At the end of the series, Morita was not that man, but the hints are there that he could become that man. Last edited by brightredglow; 2007-01-07 at 12:07. |
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2007-01-07, 10:39
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Link #1110 | |
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2007-01-07, 12:06
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Link #1111 | |
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2007-01-07, 13:15
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Link #1114 | |||||
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You yourself must be unhappy with the way things turned about because you try to sugarcoat the outcome with your description. You say that Shuu only loves her art and wants to fulfill her dream, implying that he doesn't love her physically or emotionally. That is wrong. Maybe you should deal with the consequences of what comes with a relationship? I'll tell you why it's so disappointing: the benefits of a relationship will be given to a man who she needs but does not love. I addressed this in a my last post: Quote:
And for the final time: he is her surrogate father. He is her second cousin by biology. They share blood which makes their relationship semi-wrong. However, he substituted as her father for much of her life and that is what makes their relationship insanely wrong. I'm not replying again to people trying to sugarcoat their relationship or people that are simply going to argue about their biology. Their relationship would be sick simply because of the incest but it is doubly sick because they are only in it out of necessity. |
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2007-01-07, 16:04
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Link #1116 | ||||||
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To me, the end of H&C was solid. Hagu made a choice to pursue her artistic dreams. She doesn't rule out Morita being part of future, but as to the present, he had his own issues to work out. Watch ep 11 again, you will note that he admits that he was trying to bring her down because he was miserable and he says, "I'm the worst" so just because Morita finally confessed his feelings, it did not automatically make Morita good for Hagu because he wasn't. He had his own problems to resolve. That may be unromantic but it was great shot in the arm of realism. Quote:
Hagu and Morita never even dated. He kissed her once and freaked out. How the heck is she supposed to give herself over to someone that she knows only in social sense? How is that supposed to help her to go with someone that she didn't really know in a day-in-day-out way? Was she just supposed to trust that "romantic love" would carry her through and make everything better? Again, Hagu chose what was right for her and yes, for her, romance was secondary to her dream. You may not like her choice. Heck, even Ayu questioned it, but Hagu's choice was consistent with her personality as shown in the series so this outcome should not have come as a surprise. And to you, the outcome may be pessimistic and unhappy, but as shown in the series, the characters are NOT unhappy or pessimistic. This anime is not described as "slice of life" for nothing. It is truly a slice out of their lives. They still have a lot of living to do. Quote:
As for the broach, Takemoto was about to tell Hagu who might have made it and Morita tells her it meant nothing. He lied, but still, he had the opening and he didn't take it. There were times that he supported her, but when it counted most, he wasn't there. As for his brother, Morita was both good and bad for Kaoru. He was good in that he bought into the dream but he was bad in that he never tried to save his brother from spiraling downward. It should also be noted that Morita, who knew that he himself was a talent, didn't recognize that Kaoru had his own genius and talent. It took Shiroyama, Kaoru's assistant, to point it out to him. Morita is a great character, but like all great characters, he's flawed and he's still got growing up to do. (Even though it should also be noted that he is the OLDEST of the H&C gang.) Quote:
Her commitment is to her art. Believe it or not, there are people who choose careers over romance at some point in their lives. Hagu happens to be one of them. That was a dose of realism in H&C that I fully appreciated and I say that as a non-Hagu fan. Quote:
I like that Hagu chose her art above romance. I like that Shuu finally shook off the last of his mourning over Harada and took the step to get out of the rut he was in by choosing to help Hagu. I like that Morita went back to work at something he enjoyed. I like that Takemoto, who loved Hagu to the end, chose to continue his path rather than hang around Tokyo to be near her. Also, I did not imply that Shuu doesn't love Hagu emotionally. I wrote that Shuu loves Hagu because he loves her AND her art. Shuu had already said that he loved art and that was how he ended up teaching art even though he himself was not a talented artist. And he understood Hagu well enough that Hagu and her art are entwined so it was possible for him to love both aspects and since love is an emotion, he loved Hagu emotionally. That said, you are doing a bit of projecting to say that Shuu will require a physical relationship from Hagu because he confessed to the obvious. There was nothing in the final episode to suggest that he would want that or Hagu is even thinking in those terms. If anything, Takemoto's words to Hagu in the final episode suggest that what Shuu is looking for is something that Hagu is not responsible to give to him. He'll find it on his own. Quote:
I will argue with the assertion that romance was destroyed for a relationship of survival. Morita's chances to win Hagu was never ruled out. All that happened was that Morita was basically told to get his act together and then come back for Hagu when they are both ready. Watch ep 11 again for the conversation between Shuu and Morita and it is crystal clear that Shuu expects Morita to come back for Hagu. It is also clear in ep 12 that Shuu is pleased that Morita is on the right path. So the possible romance between Hagu and Morita was not destroyed. It was merely postponed. In fact, it could be argued that Shuu didn't destroy Morita's chance with Hagu but rather he saved Morita's chances with Hagu by giving him more time to grow up some and get himself together so he'd be in a better state to handle Hagu and Hagu would be in a better place to handle him. Last edited by brightredglow; 2007-01-07 at 16:27. |
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2007-01-07, 16:19
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Link #1117 |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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My two yen on the Shuuji/Hagu revelation:
Allow me to start by saying that I understand why a lot people were blindsided by Shuuji's confession. For the last 34 episodes, we have seen Hagumi in terms of a love triangle involving she, Takemoto, and Morita. As Yamada said, Shuuji was "basically out of the equation." To have him swoop in at the last moment and turn the love triangle into a love square was a violent transition to start. Add to that the fact that we see Shuuji as the aged mentor/father figure and you have a formula for confusion and anger amongst those of us in the fan base. However, I'd like to suggest that Shuuji's final giving of himself to Hagu, even in a romantic sense, was inevitable. To help you understand this, let's look at what made both Morita and Takemoto viable candidates of Hagumi's significant other and what, eventually, made them unable to serve as that solid rock for her. Why did we root for each of them? What about them made us think they could make her happy? What kept them from ultimately being able to be her solid rock? Having been in the camp of the Morita and Hagumi pairing, I saw in him a potential for understanding. People like Hagumi who have so much brilliance and talent are often forced to suffer the fate of being constantly misunderstood. In so many cases, the only people who can truly understand their mindsets and the reasons behind their behaviors are fellow artists who struggle through the same sometimes tortured existance. Morita had the same potential for genius as Hagumi had, and, likewise, he no doubt knew what it was to have the crushing weight of accomplishment on his shoulders. Furthermore, Morita's flambouyant and outgoing personality was a nice counter for Hagumi's reflective quietness. Having a quiet and introverted streak, I can say that I sometimes need a Morita personality in my life to draw me out beyond the bounds of my comfort zone. In essence, it was Morita's ability to understand Hagu on a level that the average person could not that recommended him to her in my opinion. Takemoto, on the other hand, had the potential to be Hagumi's protector simply because of his most outstanding character trait: loyalty. As Morita's vaste talents took him half way around the globe and away from an the often physically frail Hagu, Takemoto was the constant rock. In Takemoto, there was a constancy and constiency that Morita could not offer to her. Even as he failed to understand her brilliance, his friendship with her closed the gap. Even in his inability, Takemoto's sincere desire for Hagumi's best interests to be served were the defining element that qualified him to care for her. With so many qualifications, why is it, then, that Hagu did not choose one of these two men who had spent the years pining after her? Morita's talent, it seems, was a two edged sword. Morita's world of high flying adventure and Moscars (*coughcough*Oscars*coughcough*) kept him away from her side. He could not be there for her when she needed him the most simply by virtue of his obligations. With his talent, there are things that Morita will have to accomplish. A life of quiet seclusion sitting in cottage creating works of brillance would not suit him-- at least not at this time in his life (I agree with others who have asserter that Morita and Hagu might still end up together some time in the future, after they've both done some of the things they need to do with their lives.) Sadly for Takemoto, in the end, it simply happened that Hagu didn't love him. Actually, I wish to correct myself. She loves Takemoto desperately, as is witnessed in the final scene on the railroad platform, but as heart breaking as I'm sure it is to her-- she cannot love him romantically as he wishes she could. I personally feel that this boiled down to the fact that Hagu's center lies in her art and her desire to leave something behind before she dies. Takemoto cannot understand this part of Hagumi, and she had decided that his fraction of her person will be the most important element of her existance. Furthermore, Takemoto has to get on his feet and start his life as an adult. The price and time which her rehabilitation requires is not something that Takemoto can lend to her. Additionally, by virtue of her choices to seek a goal larger that her quiet and reserved side, she's shut off the part of herself that was Takemoto's window into her. In summary, I believe we saw in Takemoto and Morita the two sides of Hagumi: the quiet and devoted companion and the artistic genuis. At this point in their lives, they both could only embody the one side of her. They have to reach for the goals they have all been building their ways towards in their education. If either were to surrender those goals for her sake, Hagu would never be happy. Shuuji, however, embodied both sides of Hagu. Because of the length of his relatinoship with her, he was able to understand her in the way that Morita's artistic brillance allowed him to understand Hagu. Additionally, being an adult man who has been on his feet for some time, he had the financial ability to give himself entirely to caring for Hagu, as Takemoto had desired to do. Only Shuuji is at a position in which he could gladly give himself entirely to Hagu-- which ultimately is what she needs. In so many ways, Hagu is a strong woman, but, in just as many ways, she desperately needs someone to lean upon. Both by right and decision, Shuuji is that man. As a fan of Shuuji, I'd just like to point out that Shuuji didn't jump Hagu. With the way that a lot of people are talking, they talk as though Shuuji raped Hagu or something. Notice that Hagu asked Shuuji to give her his life. While she may mean this platonically, Shuuji seems to indicate in his conversation with Yamada after the initial revelation of his feelings that he thinks Hagu knows how he feels. I believe that to be the case, and, for this reason, Hagu's request that Shuuji give her his life seems to be an acknowledgement and (on some level) and acceptance of those feelings. Whether we're weirded out by Shuu-chan's feelings or not, Hagu does not seem to be. Additionally, Shuuji is not Hagu's grandfather. I don't know why everyone thinks that the age difference between Shuu-chan and Hagu is so insurmountably large. Let's think for a moment. Consider the episode in which Hagu's grandmother tells her that Shuuji is back from Tokyo and Hagu goes in, gets a blanket, and falls asleep with him. Suppose she was 9 in this scene and Shuu-chan was, say, 20 (he was in college, so that's a safe guess.) This puts Shuu-chan at, say, 11 years older than Hagu. I know couples who are married who have an age difference this large. Hagu's twenty and Shuuji's in his early thirties. This isn't scandalous-- or, if it is, then Jane Austen's Emma is also scandalous. Mr. Knightley was, afterall, a childhood friend of Emma's who was 16 years Emma's senior. I don't remember anyone leveling pedophile charges against him. Lastly, I think that, if anything, we should applaud Shuuji. The likelihood is that he's been in love for Hagu for atleast a year, but he protected her from those feelings by not confessing to her. When Morita and Hagu ran off, Shuuji didn't hunt her down like some obsessed lover (If anyone those shoes would have fit Takemoto a little more snuggly in that instance). He, I believe, was complete prepared for her to choose Morita. Overall, , Shuuji was the kind of lover that any girl, regardless of her age, should love to have, and, as a woman, I feel his actions were honorable. I think we should all give Shuu-chan a little more credit. Last edited by mangafanatic; 2007-01-07 at 22:34. |
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2007-01-07, 16:34
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Link #1119 | ||||
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The fact that Morita is unstable does not mean that he can't have a relationship. Either way that is irrelevant. I refuse to reply again because analysis of the fictional character's fictional world is NOT a critical analysis. These characters and their behavior are just tools to communicate the author's point. You are missing the issue that the author is communicating that survival is more important than taking a chance on love. There is a difference between writing a review and making a critical analysis. You seem to be doing the former. You can have a non-cliche ending that doesn't have a father daughter entering into a relationship with each other. You can have a non-cliche ending where two people who care for each other don't have to choose survival over taking a chance. |
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2007-01-07, 16:58
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Link #1120 |
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Med Student
Join Date: Jul 2006
Age: 40
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excellent analysis studio ! too often anime fans forget that as much as anime can be a subjective medium, we also have to try and be objective about story archs and character choices. Hagu and Shuu as a couple is plain wrong, and i dont care what anyone says. There is no type of love or wording that can convince me otherwise. How a show that gives insight on the pain and truth of love given and love unrequited suddenly throws in some incest is just wrong and gross. It was a really devastating action on the mangaka's part.
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