(L+CR) Isekai Maou to Shoukan Shoujo no Dorei Majutsu

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

Damn...I really wanted Diablo to be the one to rage end Saddler. The whole scene with him stabbing Rem I was like,"Is this happening right now!?"

Same. I really do feel like we were cheated out of a proper, satisfying death for that SOB at Diablo’s hands. Multiply that dissatisfaction by how fast it was. Where was a nice, slow end for Saddler like what what’s-his-face fallen guy got back in the attack on the city?

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Kurumi Tokisaki tries to wipe out a city full of innocent people just to prove she’s evil and she’s Best Girl of her series.

Alicia tries to wipe out humanity for their corruption and being generally disgusting and everybody hates her.

Really?

I abandoned Date A Live early, so I never met Kurumi. However, I'm going to guess that there are important differences between how she acted and how Alicia acted, between the results of their actions, and between how they and their actions are portrayed.

[AC-Phoenix]

I have never seen such a dumb Paladin before...
He feels more like the Templar Companion from Diablo 3 ^3

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

I abandoned Date A Live early, so I never met Kurumi. However, I'm going to guess that there are important differences between how she acted and how Alicia acted, between the results of their actions, and between how they and their actions are portrayed.

Kurumi actually acts more crazy if anything, and lures guys who hit on her down dark alleys after school to kill them and steal their “time.” Literally, this actually happens. Just one example.
In the episodes we saw Kurumi she killed a number of people quite brutally, though it was a twisted “justice” as one group of them were abusing a stray kitten with toy guns. The punishment she dealt still outweighed their crime though. Innocent kitten abuse is bad, but when body parts literally end up strewn about....Aside from the knights who tried to kill her to keep her from reporting Galford’s actions to the king, Alicia hasn’t actually killed anybody as far as we’ve seen.
The author/writer of Isekai Maou definitely focuses more on Alicia’s deception and betrayal, but DAL’s author made Kurumi out to be a crazy killer and would-be mass murderer. (and she probably is, she’s had to kill plenty of people to steal the “time” needed to use her powers) She even used her powers to drain the life force from the entire school at once.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

You make it sound like she’s evil at heart. She has a tangible reason for hating people, and she’s much more justified in her actions than a lot of other anime characters who are forgiven, including some haremetts. As I pointed out above, Kurumi Tokisaki, most popular girl of her series, tried to wipe out a city full of innocent people just to prove she’s evil and beyond saving. And lying and manipulation are nothing in comparison to mass murder; I think a lot of people place too much weight on lying and deceiving.

I don't see much of a difference between that and Alicia planning to summon a Demon Lord in order to have said Demon Lord basically commit genocide on the Mortal Races.

She also knew exactly what was going to happen to Rem once she "outed" Rem as a Demon Lord follower (and she was counting on it).

There are terrible beings among the Mortal Races, yes, but that doesn't justify wanting to wipe away an entire race.

[Shinji103]

My point isn’t that what Alicia did was truly justified, but that neither is what Kurumi did and what she tried to do. Yet one is hailed as Best Girl while the other is in line to be burned at the stake.
And there are other characters throughout anime who do things as bad or worse and are forgiven for them.

[The Green One]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

My point isn’t that what Alicia did was truly justified, but that neither is what Kurumi did and what she tried to do. Yet one is hailed as Best Girl while the other is in line to be burned at the stake.
And there are other characters throughout anime who do things as bad or worse and are forgiven for them.

Ever consider people just have different tastes?

Also people are hypocrites on the Internet everyday.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by The Green One

Ever consider people just have different tastes?

Also people are hypocrites on the Internet everyday.

And that’s kinda my hidden point.

[rladls2121]

The more I read the title, the more I have a feeling that Diablo will actually use this "Slave Magic" to the heroines in the future.
Sounds well um, weird?

Actually I stopped watching this after episode 7.
I don't know what is going on starting from episode 8 to onwards.
Well, I just see the discussions here so I kind of know what to expect.

The red haired glasses girl, she is the double-crosser hhuuuh!!!?
Look at her, hiding her looking-away eyes with that reflecting glasses like she is a spy all along.
Say what?

[Lex79]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

You make it sound like she’s evil at heart. She has a tangible reason for hating people, and she’s much more justified in her actions than a lot of other anime characters who are forgiven, including some haremetts. As I pointed out above, Kurumi Tokisaki, most popular girl of her series, tried to wipe out a city full of innocent people just to prove she’s evil and beyond saving. And lying and manipulation are nothing in comparison to mass murder; I think a lot of people place too much weight on lying and deceiving.

Just exactly what is her justification for wanting to exterminate all the races (remember, not just humanity)? That she had an unhappy childhood? Seems pretty weak to me.

[rladls2121]

Let me guess, this evil red long-haired glasses knight girl has dark past, so she wants to destroy the world kind of plot?
I'm just going to go with this.

[RDNexus]

As far as I know...and I hope to not get into trouble for this...

Spoiler:

She wanted to become an ideal knight, but since little she was forced by everyone around her to keep up appearances as a noble, suck up to crappy people and digest the disgusting attitude of elitists.
Those interactions, over the years, made her grow disgusted with mankind and wanting to see all of it wiped out.

I'm not sure it's all correct, any LN Reader is free to correct me.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Lex79

Just exactly what is her justification for wanting to exterminate all the Raven (remember, not just humanity)? That she had an unhappy childhood? Seems pretty weak to me.

Clearly you didn’t actually read any of my previous posts where I never said she was justified for anything, I said justification was never my point, and even where I actually said she wasn’t any more justified than other anime characters who are forgiven for their crimes and even hailed as Best Girl of their series even after what they’ve done. So it looks like you basically just saw I wasn’t hating on Alicia and assumed I was trying to excuse her actions away.
And on that note, another example; Esdeath from Akane ga Kill was a mass-murderer and torturer who encouraged her soldiers to raid, pillage, and rape, and grinned evil grins as she watched it all unfold. She’s a very popular female character of the series because she’s hot and is all cute and girly around her crush.

But I will say that Alicia’s reason for wanting to wipe out the races is at least better than many other characters’ reasons for their actions. Esdeath does it because she believes strength is everything, and as far as the DAL anime material is concerned, Kurumi did her stuff just ‘cause.

[Lex79]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Clearly you didn’t actually read any of my previous posts where I never said she was justified for anything, I said justification was never my point, and even where I actually said she wasn’t any more justified than other anime characters who are forgiven for their crimes and even hailed as Best Girl of their series even after what they’ve done. So it looks like you basically just saw I wasn’t hating on Alicia and assumed I was trying to excuse her actions away.
And on that note, another example; Esdeath from Akane ga Kill was a mass-murderer and torturer who encouraged her soldiers to raid, pillage, and rape, and grinned evil grins as she watched it all unfold. She’s a very popular female character of the series because she’s hot and is all cute and girly around her crush.

But I will say that Alicia’s reason for wanting to wipe out the races is at least better than many other characters’ reasons for their actions. Esdeath does it because she believes strength is everything, and as far as the DAL anime material is concerned, Kurumi did her stuff just ‘cause.

Your post sounded like we have not to think about her as an evil person because she has her reasons and justifications to act that way. To me what she's trying to accomplish and the methods She uses perfectly qualify her as an evil villainess.
Of course, if I misunderstood you I'm sorry, my bad.
Sadly I can't elaborate more my thoughts about Alicia without spoiling future events.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Lex79

Your post sounded like we have not to think about her as an evil person because she has her reasons and justifications to act that way. To me what she's trying to accomplish and the methods She uses perfectly qualify her as an evil villainess.
Of course, if I misunderstood you I'm sorry, my bad.
Sadly I can't elaborate more my thoughts about Alicia without spoiling future events.

I’ll say that calling her an “evil villainess” is exaggerating. She’s not doing this to promote evil but because she believes this will wipe out a corrupt race, and there are actually evil characters whose douchebaggery makes her “evilness” look like nothing. Even compared to Saddler here, she’s still better than him just because she doesn’t slaughter people because she believes herself to be God or something. For that matter, I don’t see anybody hating Edelgard for wanting to wipe out the races.
I prefer to evaluate characters properly and accurately, rather than generalizing all antagonists as “evil.” Alicia is poisoned, broken, and not justified to wipe out everyone, but she’s not evil herself and neither are her reasons, strictly speaking. She’s just going about this in a massively wrong way.

Anyway, that got a bit off-track..........My whole point as stated in my original post has been that Alicia is getting crucified by people for what she does here, while other characters in anime are hailed and loved as popular and Best Girls for being just as bad, and even worse in certain ways. Telling your soldiers to torture, murder, and rape en masse because “Power is Righteous” is worse than wanting to wipe out a people because you’ve been poisoned by their corruption since childhood, in my opinion. At least Alicia isn’t doing this purely because she’s evil but because her environment since childhood has poisoned her heart and mind.

I only said her reason is better than most others’, not that she’s justified. Just like Kurumi, my favorite anime female character of all time, was no more justified in killing people, sucking the life force from the students, or trying to wipe out a city full of innocent people. Reasons and being justified are two very different things.
Yet Kurumi and Esdeath are arguably the most popular girls of their series-es. Alicia gets the stake and a fire from her viewers.

[thundrakkon]

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Originally Posted by Shinji103

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If anything, her actions are very evil. Take that as you will. There really isn't much wiggle room to classify or justify her actions in any other way.

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Originally Posted by Shinji103

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The biggest issue I have with your argument here is that you make it sound like people who like Kurumi and dislike Alicia are one and the same, making them hypocrites. However, the people that don't like Alicia's actions here can potentially not like Kurumi as well, or are neutral about her. You like Kurumi, and apparently, you like Alicia. That makes sense. Assuming people that likes Kurumi will turn around and dislike Alicia isn't necessarily true, since they can be two very different sets of people.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

If anything, her actions are very evil. Take that as you will. There really isn't much wiggle room to classify or justify her actions in any other way.

Nope, definitely not evil.
Evil is like Esdeath torturing people because “oh hey I’m strong so I’ll get my rocks off making these innocent people suffer, because I’m strong so I CAN.”
Alicia is absolutely twisted and poisoned, but at the very core of her reasoning she’s doing this to get rid of the corruption in the world. She’s wrong in thinking everyone in all the races deserves to die to do it, but she’s not doing this for some dastardly scheme to enjoy lots of killing, stroke her own ego, or just spread wanton death and destruction for the heck of it.

The biggest issue I have with your argument here is that you make it sound like people who like Kurumi and dislike Alicia are one and the same, making them hypocrites. However, the people that don't like Alicia's actions here can potentially not like Kurumi as well, or are neutral about her. You like Kurumi, and apparently, you like Alicia. That makes sense. Assuming people that likes Kurumi will turn around and dislike Alicia isn't necessarily true, since they can be two very different sets of people.

I never said they’re the exact same people. But it’s still a fact that characters like Kurumi and Esdeath are extremely popular despite what they’ve done in their respective stories, while Alicia is dragged off to be burned at the stake. Regardless of whether it’s the exact same people or not, it’s still dumb that some characters get a pass from their fans while others get the stake.

By the way, just so it’s clear I’m not sticking up for Alicia because she’s my favorite Isekai Maou character. I’d be saying this even if she wasn’t. The line between actual evil and where Alicia is right now is pretty dang thin, but it’s there. I suspect that we’ll see soon enough that she’s not doing all this for the death itself.

[Random Wanderer]

The fact that Alicia believes she's doing the right thing does not prevent the things she's doing from being evil. Keep in mind, Saddler thought he was doing the right thing too. He believed himself to be an aboslutely pure pillar of morality. He was wrong, and a psychotic freak who should have been killed long ago, but he still believed it. An evil act is an evil act, whether the person doing it is a laughing psychopath or a misguided saint (Alicia is neither, btw).

Alicia's actions, like Saddlers actions, are evil. Her reasoning for performing those actions may affect judgement of her in the future, but that does not mean that those actions aren't evil.

[Liddo-kun]

Watched episode 11:

Rem should have not have stopped Klem from using her powers to escape their capture, then all this would not have happened. Should have allowed Klem to beat up the paladins, but she prefer to enjoy the torture. Rem was handed the idiot ball here for plot convenience.

Sad this anime would be ending soon... hope it sells well. Need season 2!!!!!

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

The fact that Alicia believes she's doing the right thing does not prevent the things she's doing from being evil. Keep in mind, Saddler thought he was doing the right thing too. He believed himself to be an aboslutely pure pillar of morality. He was wrong, and a psychotic freak who should have been killed long ago, but he still believed it. An evil act is an evil act, whether the person doing it is a laughing psychopath or a misguided saint (Alicia is neither, btw).

I’m talking about her reasoning, not her actions, which are indeed wrong. She’s doing the way wrong things for the right core reasoning. (eliminating the corruption in the kingdom)
Saddler was a deluded, sadistic narcissist who wanted to stroke his own ego by passing himself as a god, not actually make anything better. Alicia has no such delusions of herself, and she was even happy to be the first to go. She’s severely poisoned and extremely twisted, but not truly evil.

Alicia's actions, like Saddlers actions, are evil. Her reasoning for performing those actions may affect judgement of her in the future, but that does not mean that those actions aren't evil.

Alicia’s actions yes, but not down to her core. You seem to be misunderstanding me too. I keep repeating myself that what she’s doing is wrong and unjustifiable, but she herself isn’t evil at her core.



I think we should all put this on hold until next week and see how this all works out and if Alicia truly does stick to the path of evil, because let’s face it, Diablo is going to beat Krem and prevent the destruction of the races. We all know this. It’s just a question of how he does it, and how he handles Alicia’s situation after that. And how Alicia responds will have a huge influence on this debate. So let’s push pause on this until then.