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[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by maplehurry

Well... I am pretty sure Netayahu is much more smarter than this guy.

A different poster then claim that it is ridiculous to kill only bad guys but not kill anyone else. Somehow my idea of soldiering is different from his.

There is apparently "proof" now that Hamas is firing rockets from civilian buildings... Except we already know that.

Somehow Israel supporters actually think we don't believe them, that we deny Hamas use human shields. That if they pull out proof that Hamas is being Hamas, that we would okay their bombing of civilians.

Well guess what? We do believe that Hamas use civilians as shields. That's not the problem. The problem is that Israel bombs the human shields like clockwork. The "proof" changed nothing.

[LoveYouSaber]

Actually I think for Israel to bomb/disregard the human shields would fit Hama's purpose perfectly. It fuels hatred and swells Hama's ranks. So if anything, Israel is only making matters worse for themselves - unless they are trying to exterminate all Palestinians.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by LoveYouSaber

Actually I think for Israel to bomb/disregard the human shields would fit Hama's purpose perfectly. It fuels hatred and swells Hama's ranks. So if anything, Israel is only making matters worse for themselves - unless they are trying to exterminate all Palestinians.

In some sad sense, both sides are getting what they want; Israel is willing to kill civilians if it means killing Hamas, and Hamas is willing to sacrifice themselves if that means it cause Israel to kill civilians. Both sides are getting what they want... But I think Israel is still losing out just because they can't win the war this way.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

In some sad sense, both sides are getting what they want; Israel is willing to kill civilians if it means killing Hamas, and Hamas leadership is willing to sacrifice the Rank and file if that means it cause Israel to kill civilians. Both sides are getting what they want... But I think Israel is still losing out just because they can't win the war this way.

small correction

i seriously doubt Hamas leadership is willing to sacrifice themselves.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

small correction

i seriously doubt Hamas leadership is willing to sacrifice themselves.

Well it's not the leadership that's firing rockets personally, that would be silly.

And even if leaders die, they get replaced. For as long as civilians are dying Hamas would always have new blood to replace their lost numbers.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

A different poster then claim that it is ridiculous to kill only bad guys but not kill anyone else. Somehow my idea of soldiering is different from his.

There is apparently "proof" now that Hamas is firing rockets from civilian buildings... Except we already know that.

Somehow Israel supporters actually think we don't believe them, that we deny Hamas use human shields. That if they pull out proof that Hamas is being Hamas, that we would okay their bombing of civilians.

Well guess what? We do believe that Hamas use civilians as shields. That's not the problem. The problem is that Israel bombs the human shields like clockwork. The "proof" changed nothing.

The international community has always been a bunch of mentally challenged illiterates. Under the Geneva Conventions Protocol 1, "In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage". Meaning which once Hamas start firing rockets or storing their stuff in UN shelters, those become legitimate military targets.

And UN indirectly became a war sponsor in doing so, thus it becomes a headache for international law. Israel reserves the right to bomb the crap out of it, technically speaking, but the children in the school are "collateral damage"; in the case which the children refuse to flee or decided or staying, they are considered accomplices in terrorist action because the paramilitary wing of Hamas is not considered to be a state actor under international law.

Also, I have seen plenty of photos from Syria being "adapted" into this conflict. This conflict is pure rubbish.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Well it's not the leadership that's firing rockets personally, that would be silly.

And even if leaders die, they get replaced. For as long as civilians are dying Hamas would always have new blood to replace their lost numbers.

I guess the IDF recognised that part. Since the Palestine civilians are likely either Hamas today or Hamas tomorrow, might as well shoot first, talk later.

[GreyZone]

If Israel had an "absolutely never hurt civilians"-policy, then Hamas would just drag innocent civilians from the streets and with 1 meat shield per terrorist walk right into the Israeli headquarters and kill all Israeli soldiers, since they would absolutely not shoot back.

Of course you can say that "the other extreme", i.e. just ignoring civilian casaulties enteriely, is out of the question as well, but then WHERE EXACTLY do you draw the line?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

I guess the IDF recognised that part. Since the Palestine civilians are likely either Hamas today or Hamas tomorrow, might as well shoot first, talk later.

I have trouble determining if you are joking or not. But I guess that's the sign of the times...

If Israel had an "absolutely never hurt civilians"-policy, then Hamas would just drag innocent civilians from the streets and with 1 meat shield per terrorist walk right into the Israeli headquarters and kill all Israeli soldiers, since they would absolutely not shoot back.

Of course you can say that "the other extreme", i.e. just ignoring civilian casaulties enteriely, is out of the question as well, but then WHERE EXACTLY do you draw the line?

Well right now, Israel is diligently blowing up civilian targets Hamas is telling them to blow up. If Israel thinks this is somehow going to help them win the war, I say they are crazy.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

In some sad sense, both sides are getting what they want; Israel is willing to kill civilians if it means killing Hamas, and Hamas is willing to sacrifice themselves if that means it cause Israel to kill civilians. Both sides are getting what they want... But I think Israel is still losing out just because they can't win the war this way.

They'd also lose out by letting Hamas fire rockets at them in impunity. There's no winning this. So what, exactly, do you suggest?

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

If Israel had an "absolutely never hurt civilians"-policy, then Hamas would just drag innocent civilians from the streets and with 1 meat shield per terrorist walk right into the Israeli headquarters and kill all Israeli soldiers, since they would absolutely not shoot back.

Of course you can say that "the other extreme", i.e. just ignoring civilian casaulties enteriely, is out of the question as well, but then WHERE EXACTLY do you draw the line?

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I have trouble determining if you are joking or not. But I guess that's the sign of the times...

You draw the line where it threatens your safety - you can't save others when your life is in danger.

@ VCV : That is what I called an unpleasant reasoning.

Well right now, Israel is diligently blowing up civilian targets Hamas is telling them to blow up. If Israel thinks this is somehow going to help them win the war, I say they are crazy.

They don't intend to win, they are just sending a message that since their attempts to care about collateral damage have been met with hostile response AND threaten their citizens' lives, they are stopping.

Basically :


You get the idea.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

The international community has always been a bunch of mentally challenged illiterates. Under the Geneva Conventions Protocol 1, "In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage". Meaning which once Hamas start firing rockets or storing their stuff in UN shelters, those become legitimate military targets.

And UN indirectly became a war sponsor in doing so, thus it becomes a headache for international law. Israel reserves the right to bomb the crap out of it, technically speaking, but the children in the school are "collateral damage"; in the case which the children refuse to flee or decided or staying, they are considered accomplices in terrorist action because the paramilitary wing of Hamas is not considered to be a state actor under international law.

Well, the idealist's way of thinking is basically this:

Do not consider the Palestinians as foreigners. Consider them as equal to your own citizens. So in this sense, how would the military respond if the human shields are your own citizens? If the military would have to respond in the same manner, then it's necessary, if not, then the killings' unnecessary.

Basically :


You get the idea.

Well, even for legitimate military target, there's still some limitations under Geneva conventions:

So Israel can not officially just say "we don't give a damn at all" because that would be inappropriate, technically speaking.

Edit: upon further research, Israel never ratified the additional protocols of Geneva 1977. So the only official military code of conduct regarding this is simply the one they made themsevles:
"The soldier shall make use of his weaponry and power only for the fulfillment of the mission and solely to the extent required; he will maintain his humanity even in combat. The soldier shall not employ his weaponry and power in order to harm non-combatants or prisoners of war, and shall do all he can to avoid harming their lives, body, honor and property."

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

They'd also lose out by letting Hamas fire rockets at them in impunity. There's no winning this. So what, exactly, do you suggest?

In hindsight, maybe the IDF should never leave Gaza. (yes, not a useful comment. )

[Ithekro]

Back in the 90s our model UN group had to go over this conflict at a high school level. We eventually decided to have the Palastinians abandon Gaza and move everyone to the West Bank as a full country with a mile to three wide zone were no one was to live. As the trust between the two countries increased the zone would gradually go to Palastine. I dont't recall what we did about Jeruselum. I'm sure it was a compromise of some sort that both sides didn't quite like, but was acceptable with the ending of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, the annexation of Gaza to Israel, and the ending of the terrorism.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

in the case which the children refuse to flee or decided or staying, they are considered accomplices in terrorist action because the paramilitary wing of Hamas is not considered to be a state actor under international law.

I guess the IDF recognised that part. Since the Palestine civilians are likely either Hamas today or Hamas tomorrow, might as well shoot first, talk later.

One day it's your kids and you sing a different tone eh?

Will you still stick to your stand then or be a hypocrite?

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

One day it's your kids and you sing a different tone eh?

My kids or not, they are still people. One can do their best to reason, but if they are steadfast in their stand, what can you do?

Besides, that one-liner is pretty much appeal to emotion. Try something else.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Will you still stick to your stand then or be a hypocrite?

How is that hypocrisy?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

My kids or not, they are still people. One can do their best to reason, but if they are steadfast in their stand, what can you do?

Besides, that one-liner is pretty much appeal to emotion. Try something else.



How is that hypocrisy?

When it's your kids being bombed, you don't go into a murderous rage and shrug it off.

If you can do that then I won't say you are a hypocrite. Since this is your philosophy. Can you?

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

When it's your kids being bombed, you don't go into a murderous rage and shrug it off.

If you can do that then I won't say you are a hypocrite. Since this is your philosophy. Can you?

Still appeal to emotion, this time with a flawed argument. And you missed out another fact about life - people change base on circumstances. Seen the Arab Israelis within their borders who were on the other side of the conflict 57 years ago? Why would their children join the IDF?

Things change, alliances shift, paradigms turn. Nothing is set in stone.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Still appeal to emotion, this time with a flawed argument. And you missed out another fact about life - people change base on circumstances. Seen the Arab Israelis within their borders who were on the other side of the conflict 57 years ago? Why would their children join the IDF?

Things change, alliances shift, paradigms turn. Nothing is set in stone.

You really don't grasp the situation if you actually think the Israeli Arabs are ok with this. Nor do you realize the biggest threat to Zionism is internal demographics. Don't talk if you can't even see this

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

You really don't grasp the situation if you actually think the Israeli Arabs are ok with this. Nor do you realize the biggest threat to Zionism is internal demographics. Don't talk if you can't even see this

You mean I am blind if my perspective is different from yours?

I will blunt this once; if you have a problem with another person's opinion, it is YOUR problem, present your point of view and elaborate on it, because it is your onus to convince them to your side. Don't expect others to fix theirs to suit your emotional needs.

Also, this is a discussion so keep it civil. Thank you.

[GreyZone]

The schools run by the UN... I wonder how/what they teach there... For the sake of the peace of Gaza, I really hope they don't just use a standard western curiculum, or even worse, use teachers from Gaza. They need teachers that the children look up to and are taught to make rational judgement that are not controlled by "mad believes" (no matter if religious, cultural, iseali or muslim), but by logic and self-preservation. It is also necessary to push individuality in the schools, because the best way to fight the "soldier" mindset, is to weaken the hive-mind-like mindset.

Also they need better security and make sure to throw trouble makers and people who try to recruit soldiers, no matter from which side, out of there. If it was done like that.

But I guess that would be a non-existent utopia.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

The schools run by the UN... I wonder how/what they teach there... For the sake of the peace of Gaza, I really hope they don't just use a standard western curiculum, or even worse, use teachers from Gaza. They need teachers that the children look up to and are taught to make rational judgement that are not controlled by "mad believes" (no matter if religious, cultural, iseali or muslim), but by logic and self-preservation. It is also necessary to push individuality in the schools, because the best way to fight the "soldier" mindset, is to weaken the hive-mind-like mindset.

Also they need better security and make sure to throw trouble makers and people who try to recruit soldiers, no matter from which side, out of there. If it was done like that.

But I guess that would be a non-existent utopia.

I suggest German teachers. After being part of the Holocaust and rebuilding themselves to be an economical and technological Europower, I can't find any more suitable candidate for that.

But first, put peacekeepers outside of the schools to deter those ferrying rockets into the shelter.