[MANGA] what went wrong in bleach?

[Haak]

Originally Posted by DmonHiro

What you're forgetting here is that Ichigo was not the only one to have trained like crazy since Aizen left Soul Society. In fact, Zaraki probably did NOTHING ELSE excet train ever since Aizen left. Of course he's going to be stronger next time he fights.

Zaraki doesn't really seem like the type of person that likes training.

[Gin]

Originally Posted by Haak

Zaraki doesn't really seem like the type of person that likes training.

theres nobody for him to train with, he would just kill anyone that dared to spar with him

[Haak]

Yeah, only the captains are actually able to teach him anything through sparring that would make him stronger. And it doesn't seem as if they spar with one another. Kubo could do with making things a little clearer.

[Gin]

soifon or byakuya could teach him some shunpo, orany captain could teach him kidou, mayuri could teach him some science but sadly, zaraki seems to be against learning, he said that yama-jii forced him to learn kendo

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by Gin

soifon or byakuya could teach him some shunpo, orany captain could teach him kidou, mayuri could teach him some science but sadly, zaraki seems to be against learning, he said that yama-jii forced him to learn kendo

Lol Soi Fon and Byakuya teaching him shunpo? I think there will arise a big argument between them in decideing whose shunpo is better and in the end Zaraki will end up observing a race betweenn 2 pissed off captains

I already can see them racing and then suddenly someone passes by and Yoruichi stands at the finish line with big smirk "My shunpo is better then both of yours", just imagine their faces

[shelter]

I'm sort of new to Bleach. And I caught up on the 300++ manga chapters within a few days just to appreciate the story.

It's difficult to pinpoint reasons without being subjective. So far the posts in this thread point out what's wrong based on story, characters & pairings. But to simplify things, the problems are:

• Bleach has lost its unpredictability. During Ichigo's assault on HM, there was still a possibility of a plot twist or some surprise. But now, all that surprises us are the abilities, not the conclusions.
• To some extent, even Bleach's final battle is a foregone conclusion: an Ichigo vs. Aizen, with 1-2 additional characters thrown in.
• Ichigo is more a hero than a protagonist (in the strictest sense of the word). He always takes the moral high ground, which is slightly unrealistic given the decisions he needs to make.
• And as for characters, high volume & turnover is still all right. But what bothers me is how the villains are one-dimensionally flat & exist only for the good guy's character development (Omaeda vs Nirgge Parduoc is an extreme example).

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

You don't know what bad writing is...

Lol. Okay whatever. I'll just assume I'm right since you seem to have intention of proving me wrong.

Coulda, shoudla, woulda...Your opinions are simply assumptions..I use canon.

Canon > Your opinions.

It's more consistent than yours. Explain then to me why Ulquiorra didn't detect hollow reiatsu. It obviously must've been somewhere where he couldn't detect it, right? Otherwise you're going to have to explain how Hollow Ichigo was causing Ichigo's reiatsu to actually fluctuate itself, even when Ichigo was in bankai and Ichigo's reiatsu does not not normally fluctuate.

Your not reading if you think the resolve just showed up out of nowhere during Ichigo and Renji's battle when Ichigo trained to get it before the battle and the audience as well as Ichigo knew about it beforehand!!

So this resolve training was revealed before the fight? Okay. this is interesting. If that's the case then it isn't a Deus Ex Machina. Just a plot device. So where in the manga was it mentioned?

Hollow Ichigo always has been shown to be the more dominant than Ichigo from the start. Yeah, just like Hollow Ichigo was dominating Byakauya and normal Ichigo couldn't do the same. Yeah we as an audience can't see the huge difference in power between the two, that's some DEM there...wooh. Hollow Ichigo always has been shown to be the more dominant than Ichigo from the start.

No. No he hasn't. That's lie. It's not even subtle. It's an outright bloody lie.
Ichigo has a stronger mind and we still don't know why Hollow Ichigo even has a little bit more reiatsu than Ichigo. Why does Hollow Ichigo have more reiatsu than Ichigo? Ichigop has come back and beaten Hollwo ichigo in every encounter. This is the first time when someone else had to do something.

It doesn't matter because I did make the point that I accept Hollow ichigo being stronger and it was the shear difference that was a Dues Ex machina. Hollow Ichigo's owning of Byakuya is not sufficient enough to show us that Hollow Ichigo would own someone far far far more powerful. But you've seemed to accept that, which is surprising because I actually believed you one of those. Turns out you're not. Unless you're being sarcastic.

Nah I was waiting for the attack's after affect to show up......And it did.

Actually, you know what? Ulquiorra's death does make sense. But it wasn't the after affect of cero. Ulquiorra simply used up too much reiatsu. He was being destroyed from the cero as it was happening but Ulquiorra's regeneration was stronger and quicker. Eventually Ulquiora couldn't keep up and eventually used up all his reiatsu. But it still doesn't make sense why he didn't realise it was happnening.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by Haak

It's more consistent than yours. Explain then to me why Ulquiorra didn't detect hollow reiatsu. It obviously must've been somewhere where he couldn't detect it, right? Otherwise you're going to have to explain how Hollow Ichigo was causing Ichigo's reiatsu to actually fluctuate itself, even when Ichigo was in bankai and Ichigo's reiatsu does not not normally fluctuate.

Notice when Ulquirra made those statements about Ichigo's Reaitsu fluctuating how the Hollow tried to takeover for Ichigo. That's when Ulquirra made the statement, it's what Ulquirra was alluding to. Ichigo's Reaitsu increasing because of the Hollow.

So this resolve training was revealed before the fight? Okay. this is interesting. If that's the case then it isn't a Deus Ex Machina. Just a plot device. So where in the manga was it mentioned?

Chapter 97 page 13........

No. No he hasn't. That's lie. It's not even subtle. It's an outright bloody lie.
Ichigo has a stronger mind and we still don't know why Hollow Ichigo even has a little bit more reiatsu than Ichigo. Why does Hollow Ichigo have more reiatsu than Ichigo? Ichigop has come back and beaten Hollwo ichigo in every encounter. This is the first time when someone else had to do something.

It doesn't matter because I did make the point that I accept Hollow ichigo being stronger and it was the shear difference that was a Dues Ex machina. Hollow Ichigo's owning of Byakuya is not sufficient enough to show us that Hollow Ichigo would own someone far far far more powerful. But you've seemed to accept that, which is surprising because I actually believed you one of those. Turns out you're not. Unless you're being sarcastic.

I don't need to lie over cartoon characters, I'm not getting paid for this. It's a known fact that the Hollow inside Ichigo is taking over little by little [The Hollow even states this to Ichigo] and Rukia in chapter 196 pg 14 confirms Ichigo's fear of becoming a Hollow. Everytime the Hollow fights he dominates Ichigo's opponents, he has always been more powerful than Ichigo. I don't know where you ever even found it in this manga that he was never out of Ichigo's league.

Canon > Your opinions.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

Notice when Ulquirra made those statements about Ichigo's Reaitsu fluctuating how the Hollow tried to takeover for Ichigo. That's when Ulquirra made the statement, it's what Ulquirra was alluding to. Ichigo's Reaitsu increasing because of the Hollow.

Ulquiorra ought to have sensed Hollow Reiatsu, then. But he didn't. Otherwise he would've been surprised just like when Ichigo first fought him: "How can he have this reiatsu. It's exactly like ours!"

Chapter 97 page 13........

Are you high or something?

That's during Ichigo's fight with Renji that they revealed Ichigo had resolve training with Urahara. Not before.
This resolve concept (and how Ichigo first learned of it) was something brought in when it looked like Ichigo was going to lose.

Phenomenal, do you understand the concept of a Deus Ex Machina? Yes it was revealed that this training took place before the fight, but THAT was also revealed during the fight. It's still a Deus Ex machina. This "resolve" concept was brought in out of the blue FOR US - THE READERS! All you've done is prove that it wasn't a Deus Ex Machina for Ichigo.

I don't need to lie over cartoon characters, I'm not getting paid for this. It's a known fact that the Hollow inside Ichigo is taking over little by little [The Hollow even states this to Ichigo] and Rukia in chapter 196 pg 14 confirms Ichigo's fear of becoming a Hollow. Everytime the Hollow fights he dominates Ichigo's opponents, he has always been more powerful than Ichigo. I don't know where you ever even found it in this manga that he was never out of Ichigo's league.

Okay, okay sorry, about the lying thing. That was me going overboard.

But no.

"It's a known fact that the Hollow inside Ichigo is taking over little by little [The Hollow even states this to Ichigo] and Rukia in chapter 196 pg 14 confirms Ichigo's fear of becoming a Hollow."

This shows us that Hollow Ichigo had a stronger mind. Now Ichigo has a stronger mind, so you can't use that.

"Everytime the Hollow fights he dominates Ichigo's opponents",

It only happened once. And that was because Ichigo wasn't using his bankai properly, because Ichigo had a weaker mind than Hollow Ichigo. Hollow Ichigo never won because of stronger reiatsu or anything like that.

This case is different. Ichigo didn't do anything wrong. He was just weaker than Ulquiorra. And hollow Ichigo turned out to be infinantely more powerful.

[paradox13]

- All the characters are shallow, especially Ichigo, which is quite astounding considering hes the main character and all.

- Fights get boring after a while. Theres no 'thinking' or strategy behind them; nothing makes the audience go 'ah' or 'woah' after the good guys win, everytime its a powerup or a fucking technique.

- The good guys ALWAYS win. This makes the manga terribly predictable. Compare this with other shonen or seinen manga, for example, in One Piece, we have Luffy losing against Aokiji, Smoker, Magellan and Croc (twice). Granted he always survives and makes it through, but he does suffer setbacks and he has to find a way to get stronger.

- No plot at all. HM arc is just a repetition of the SS arc.

As for story itself there was SS arc and there is SS arc2 called HM arc. It's basicly repeating everything again plus showing off some more characters that were introduced in SS.
Cool Ganjiu, Kukkaku and Hanatarou are replaced by evil hollows that for some reason are insane enough to not be evil. Instead of one gatekeeper that showed us how Ichigo grew stronger we have two of them for Ishiada and Chad. Chad dosn't go long on his awesome expansion of killing cannon fodders (I used to be much more Chad's fan with his "Mu" because fillers and eventually making him what he is). It's more 1-1 now as if there weren't enough cannon fodders in the land of hollows.
Hotheaded halfboss:Renji is now Grimjaw, and cold boss:Byakuya is now Uluqoria(always sp?). Cat turining woman Yoruichi is now Nel that we suppose to give a shit because she has very annoying way of speaking and somehow is strong and is healing and is the one thing that bring us few jokes in Bleach. Grimjaw flashbacks at the end and strickes with nothing he can do and the whole fight could be presented in the same side of powerups like that one but they have bankais now.

^ this

- One thing I hate about Bleach is the character designs. I mean ALL the characters are good or cool looking. It feels kinda cheap, as though the entire series is just a scheme for Kubo to make money through drawing good looking characters and cool fights and not through actually thinking up a decent plot.

[War_Lord]

My only wish is for there to be more romance....or fanservice. As for plot and character development, I can only hope the pacing is due to the large amount of characters introduced in the series. Since the cast is so big, it should provide the series with plenty of new arcs for years to come. Then again, that depends on how long Kubo, the company he works for or the fans will stay interested.

[Sciel]

I find bleach to be too predictable now . No one ever dies , the good guys almost always wins no matter the odds (Even if they lose , another good guy comes and wtfpwns the baddie).
I also find Ichigo's reason for fighting rather cringeworthy . Granted this is a shounen manga but having to hear / read about him saying to protect my friends a gazillion times is annoying .

[Naruto_spartan]

Originally Posted by Sciel

I find bleach to be too predictable now . No one ever dies , the good guys almost always wins no matter the odds (Even if they lose , another good guy comes and wtfpwns the baddie).
I also find Ichigo's reason for fighting rather cringeworthy . Granted this is a shounen manga but having to hear / read about him saying to protect my friends a gazillion times is annoying .

I agree with Sciel, granted that I thought of the possibility of the recent chapters and wins only being an illusion created by Aizen... but the recent chapters aren't the only ones that I am displeased with... I liked the Soul Society arc to some extent in that Ichigo had to train hard to learn Bankai but from then on it seamed to go down hill. The arrancara fight were interesting in Karakura, but then Ichigo seamengly finding the power to beat all his enemies makes it look too much like Dragonball Z and Super Sayian mode... then there are the captains... when I saw the episode when Toshiro said that Vasto Lord are stronger then captains, I was pretty impressed and waited with anticipation... but then here comes the fights where hollows are basically whooped like regular hollows and nothing surprising.

Also there is no diversity in the characters... follow every fight and you'll see. Even though they sometimes act different when they aren't fighting, when they do they get that annoying prideful act, like they are playing in a play for someone. When they fight, it always has to be one on one, face to face... why can't there be two or three on one all at the same time? or surprise attacks? or intelligent solutions to beat the enemy instead of constantly overpowering him? why all the dramatization(when they fight, it's two or three panels always have to have the eye/s on one of the characters looking at the other without interest).

Or quite simply, why can't there be character death? Why isn't there any background to the characters? why is killing the bad guy always the solution when someone else can just come and take his place? why isn't there some depth in the characters? Ichigo for example, he has no idea why he fights... he fights only/mostly for his family, friends, home and though this is a very good reasons, they are also very selfish... why doesn't he think that he must do something more? why doesn't he accept that there is a higher purpose for him? Ichigo never pushes himself to new hights, he is always pulled to it by the situation or someone else...

I could go on and on with this but for now it's enough... I used Naruto as a comparison... because I really like the story, to me it beats Bleach hands down...

[Bad wolf]

I guess I'll add something to this, to try and make up for my epic fail post earlier.
I honestly think, bad plot and shallow characters aside, they should have given more of Hollow Ichigo more of a role, other then his main role to save Ichigo from dying and that Visard power up.
Personally I think the Visard should have been more then just him gaining a Hollow mask and it giving him incredible powers. Like maybe something like that hollow ichigo Bankai fanart someone made(Minus the changed bankai form), or maybe his evolved Hollow form. and possibly a doublelujah-style personality merge, using Hollow Ichigo's instints and the logic or whatever style fighting Ichgo used.
Also, given the level it increased his power(for 11 seconds) I think it shouldn't have happened so soon and so quickly, maybe he could have just had the mask at first but as he got more control over it the full form would be a personality-merge/full hollow bankai form. That would have made it better imo.
Oh also they should of made it have some sort of effect on his personality, like making him more violent/merciless a fighter rather then him being sterotypical "Justice" mc.

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by paradox13

- One thing I hate about Bleach is the character designs. I mean ALL the characters are good or cool looking. It feels kinda cheap, as though the entire series is just a scheme for Kubo to make money through drawing good looking characters and cool fights and not through actually thinking up a decent plot.

I agree, Omaeda is mantastic!

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by Haak

Ulquiorra ought to have sensed Hollow Reiatsu, then. But he didn't. Otherwise he would've been surprised just like when Ichigo first fought him: "How can he have this reiatsu. It's exactly like ours!"

Did you forget Ichigo went to train and develop that hollow Reiatsu for control before his first fight against Ulquirra?
Did you forget the fact that as soon as the hollow inside Ichigo tried to take over against Yammy that's when Ulqui made the statement about his fluctuating Reiatsu, he was commenting on that Hollow inside of him CAUSING the reaitsu to fluctaute, who cares if Ulqui didn't mention it WE know what caused the fluctuation and that the power of the hollow is greater than Ulqui's.

Okay, okay sorry, about the lying thing. That was me going overboard.

But no.

"It's a known fact that the Hollow inside Ichigo is taking over little by little [The Hollow even states this to Ichigo] and Rukia in chapter 196 pg 14 confirms Ichigo's fear of becoming a Hollow."

This shows us that Hollow Ichigo had a stronger mind. Now Ichigo has a stronger mind, so you can't use that.

"Everytime the Hollow fights he dominates Ichigo's opponents",

It only happened once. And that was because Ichigo wasn't using his bankai properly, because Ichigo had a weaker mind than Hollow Ichigo. Hollow Ichigo never won because of stronger reiatsu or anything like that.

This case is different. Ichigo didn't do anything wrong. He was just weaker than Ulquiorra. And hollow Ichigo turned out to be infinantely more powerful.

Sigh Ulquirra's statement proves that Hollow Ichigo > Ichigo...Period. My above statement proves so...You can ignore facts all you want but they are not going away.

Are you high or something?

That's during Ichigo's fight with Renji that they revealed Ichigo had resolve training with Urahara. Not before.
This resolve concept (and how Ichigo first learned of it) was something brought in when it looked like Ichigo was going to lose.

Phenomenal, do you understand the concept of a Deus Ex Machina? Yes it was revealed that this training took place before the fight, but THAT was also revealed during the fight. It's still a Deus Ex machina. This "resolve" concept was brought in out of the blue FOR US - THE READERS! All you've done is prove that it wasn't a Deus Ex Machina for Ichigo.

It's not a DEM if the resolve happened BEFORE Ichigo came to SS, The flashback of his training PROVES this. It wasn't pulled out of nowhere...You are pulling arguments out of no where though..

[james0246]

^Well said. Despite some of my problems with the use of power-ups, it really cannot be said that the power-ups, etc, are not well established within the story. There is plenty to criteque concerning the series, but, if nothing else, deus ex machina are seldom if ever used.

[Ekul]

Not only is Hollow Ichigo stronger, but smarter as well... Some of the techniques he uses could be great for Ichigo... so why doesn't Ichigo imitate him, at least a little?

[Kyero Fox]

Originally Posted by kitten320

Lol Soi Fon and Byakuya teaching him shunpo? I think there will arise a big argument between them in decideing whose shunpo is better and in the end Zaraki will end up observing a race betweenn 2 pissed off captains

I already can see them racing and then suddenly someone passes by and Yoruichi stands at the finish line with big smirk "My shunpo is better then both of yours", just imagine their faces

yea to bad from what we've seen, Ichigo would own all 3 of them in a race

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

yea to bad from what we've seen, Ichigo would own all 3 of them in a race

Nah, Ichigo's speed is nothing now. Everyone catches him without problem.

I guess both SS and HM had running lessons