Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[rakusukira]

I kinda thought Kira had a love-at-first-sight-attraction to Lacus in episode 8

[BladeEntity]

Originally Posted by rakusukira

yeah it is. and it's a crazy logic..

anyway, Kira and Fllay did have more interaction than Kira and Lacus.. this reaction towards Kira and Lacus' exclusivity is only because the directors wouldn't give us a proper "meaning" about them.. I mean... THEY HAVEN'T EVEN KISSED ON SCREEN YET!!!!!!!!!!!

and it angers me... but I'm a KiraXLacus fan either way..

To be honest I thought that Kira and Lacus had way more interaction than Kira Fllay, however the latter did have more development owing to how the relationships are linked to Kira's character development through seed. Kira and Lacus are simply the end result while Kira and Fllay was a work in progress the way I see it. Similar to the way Ledgem see's it. The major difference was the relationships I feel were used as plot devices to further show character growth for Kira in GS since the series focus majorly on that aspect. Where the physical intimacy that girlfriend/boyfriend share in the Kira/Fllay relationship as compared to the 'matured' less passionate but more companion focused relationship between Kira and Lacus (similar to the relationship of couples married for many years) was a sign of growth of Kira's character, as well as the effect each girl had on his fighting mentality.

Fllay's redemption at the end of GS while nice to see, I find was more of a ploy for the viewers to build a sense of sympathy over her death in order to emulate what Kira would have felt when she died. e.g. not being able to at least have a talk and work things out and for Kira to she how she had changed since he never got to after he started becoming more cold before he 'died'.

I know many will disagree with me on this but I do not see Kira and Fllay working out in the long term even if she had survived and reconciled with Kira. The relationship was very much like a teenagers relationship which more often than not rarely end up in marriage IRL in contrast to the married couple type of relationship which was portrayed between Kira and Lacus, with which the focus was the companionship (the type that lasts forever) and the mutual understanding they had which was shown in the later episodes of GS where they were able to find comfort in one another without the need for secual intimacy.

Another factor which may have affected this couple would be the fact that it was war time and Kira in his mentally broken state for not being able to save the kids in the shuttle led to perhaps the solace which came from the physical comfort of intimacy. In Contrast to where and when Kira and Lacus's relationship would have development which would be in the time in the plants away from war, where there are no more external pressures which may contribute to the relationship, albeit majority of the development was of screen.

The little development of Kira and Lacus during GSD or even showing from love for me bothered me very little as from the little we got I found that the whole relationship could have been summed up within that little moment which is why I felt Kira and Lacus just 'worked' as a couple and required little attention. The mutual understanding between them is what makes it extremely believable despite the lack of development and screen time. Especially the time when Kira goes to save Lacus, I believe that the reason Athrun little prodding was necessary as if Kira were to simply leave it would be betraying the promise he had made when they had separated earlier which would be to look after the AA. There what made with go and save Lacus was not so much Athrun's persuasion but rather him seeing that Athrun was well and he could leave to focus on saving Lacus. Of course this is only speculation and it is up to you to make your own opinions.

[Washu-Chan]

How do you think Seed's romance arc compares to Turn A Gundam's romance arc (Kira/Loran, Fllay/Sochie, Lacus/Dianna)?

Fukuda claimed that Turn A Gundam was one of favorite Gundam shows.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

To be honest I thought that Kira and Lacus had way more interaction than Kira Fllay, however the latter did have more development owing to how the relationships are linked to Kira's character development through seed. Kira and Lacus are simply the end result while Kira and Fllay was a work in progress the way I see it. Similar to the way Ledgem see's it. The major difference was the relationships I feel were used as plot devices to further show character growth for Kira in GS since the series focus majorly on that aspect. Where the physical intimacy that girlfriend/boyfriend share in the Kira/Fllay relationship as compared to the 'matured' less passionate but more companion focused relationship between Kira and Lacus (similar to the relationship of couples married for many years) was a sign of growth of Kira's character, as well as the effect each girl had on his fighting mentality.

Fllay's redemption at the end of GS while nice to see, I find was more of a ploy for the viewers to build a sense of sympathy over her death in order to emulate what Kira would have felt when she died. e.g. not being able to at least have a talk and work things out and for Kira to she how she had changed since he never got to after he started becoming more cold before he 'died'.

I know many will disagree with me on this but I do not see Kira and Fllay working out in the long term even if she had survived and reconciled with Kira. The relationship was very much like a teenagers relationship which more often than not rarely end up in marriage IRL in contrast to the married couple type of relationship which was portrayed between Kira and Lacus, with which the focus was the companionship (the type that lasts forever) and the mutual understanding they had which was shown in the later episodes of GS where they were able to find comfort in one another without the need for secual intimacy.

Another factor which may have affected this couple would be the fact that it was war time and Kira in his mentally broken state for not being able to save the kids in the shuttle led to perhaps the solace which came from the physical comfort of intimacy. In Contrast to where and when Kira and Lacus's relationship would have development which would be in the time in the plants away from war, where there are no more external pressures which may contribute to the relationship, albeit majority of the development was of screen.

The little development of Kira and Lacus during GSD or even showing from love for me bothered me very little as from the little we got I found that the whole relationship could have been summed up within that little moment which is why I felt Kira and Lacus just 'worked' as a couple and required little attention. The mutual understanding between them is what makes it extremely believable despite the lack of development and screen time. Especially the time when Kira goes to save Lacus, I believe that the reason Athrun little prodding was necessary as if Kira were to simply leave it would be betraying the promise he had made when they had separated earlier which would be to look after the AA. There what made with go and save Lacus was not so much Athrun's persuasion but rather him seeing that Athrun was well and he could leave to focus on saving Lacus. Of course this is only speculation and it is up to you to make your own opinions.

I can't agree more on it.

[aeriolewinters]

. The mutual understanding between them is what makes it extremely believable despite the lack of development and screen time.

Oh, you mean Fan-goggles™?


You know, let me tell you a little story of my stint here in Animesuki. When Destiny first aired, I was one of you guys. If someone has an archive from Destiny's first showing, I'm pretty much pro Lacus during the series' start. Whatever changed in her characterization(or lack thereof), that was the last straw for me. I loathed what they did to Kira and Lacus' relationship because, no friction means no worth. In a real relationship, the partners are subjected to trials, many...many times. Morosawa, by making Lacus her self-insert assured that Kira and her will never match the chemistry between Fllay and Kira.

You say real life couples get married because they're steady, yes. the are. BUT, Marriage is a whole different thing compared to a relationship. Lacus and Kira had a static foundation, and It's hollow. I have a friend who had this type of relationship, they did get steady for four years, but did you know what happened after marriage? they filed for annulment the following year: For reasons that they didn't know each other; and that they didn't really love each other that much.

Contrary to what you're saying, Kira/Lacus is the ideal, but the reality is, if you think of only the ideals, it will eat you up because your mate will not be always perfect for you. It had great potential, but if it feels hollow, and needs fan-goggling™ to make it work, It's not as endearing as Kira/Fllay or hell Kira/Cagalli

On the other hand, Kira and Fllay's relationship is one of trials, and going over that trial. The only thing that stopped its natural progression was: Chiaki Morosawa's deathnote. Which in irony, destroyed Kira/Lacus. This is the same situation with fans of Spiderman and how they feel about Mary Jane. Gwen Stacy was killed off by the writers not because they wanted to develop Peter Parker's character, but it was an attempt to make Mary Jane look like a champ. Fllay was clearly on the path to true understanding, but Morosawa said: NO U, ME WANT MYSELF TO LOOK BETTAR. Instead of keeping Fllay, on the sidepocket to develop Kira/Lacus, she chickened out. If you browse FF.Net, in-universe fics that have Kira/Lacus always keeps Fllay alive, or deal with Kira going over Fllay's death. Which means that unconsciously, people wanted Fllay to survive just to see how Kira/Lacus weighs.

[casval cehack]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Oh, you mean Fan-goggles™?


You know, let me tell you a little story of my stint here in Animesuki. When Destiny first aired, I was one of you guys. If someone has an archive from Destiny's first showing, I'm pretty much pro Lacus during the series' start. Whatever changed in her characterization(or lack thereof), that was the last straw for me. I loathed what they did to Kira and Lacus' relationship because, no friction means no worth. In a real relationship, the partners are subjected to trials, many...many times. Morosawa, by making Lacus her self-insert assured that Kira and her will never match the chemistry between Fllay and Kira.

You say real life couples get married because they're steady, yes. the are. BUT, Marriage is a whole different thing compared to a relationship. Lacus and Kira had a static foundation, and It's hollow. I have a friend who had this type of relationship, they did get steady for four years, but did you know what happened after marriage? they filed for annulment the following year: For reasons that they didn't know each other; and that they didn't really love each other that much.

Contrary to what you're saying, Kira/Lacus is the ideal, but the reality is, if you think of only the ideals, it will eat you up because your mate will not be always perfect for you. It had great potential, but if it feels hollow, and needs fan-goggling™ to make it work, It's not as endearing as Kira/Fllay or hell Kira/Cagalli

On the other hand, Kira and Fllay's relationship is one of trials, and going over that trial. The only thing that stopped its natural progression was: Chiaki Morosawa's deathnote. Which in irony, destroyed Kira/Lacus. This is the same situation with fans of Spiderman and how they feel about Mary Jane. Gwen Stacy was killed off by the writers not because they wanted to develop Peter Parker's character, but it was an attempt to make Mary Jane look like a champ. Fllay was clearly on the path to true understanding, but Morosawa said: NO U, ME WANT MYSELF TO LOOK BETTAR. Instead of keeping Fllay, on the sidepocket to develop Kira/Lacus, she chickened out. If you browse FF.Net, in-universe fics that have Kira/Lacus always keeps Fllay alive, or deal with Kira going over Fllay's death. Which means that unconsciously, people wanted Fllay to survive just to see how Kira/Lacus weighs.

I couldn't agree more.

[Eidolon Sniper]

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

To be honest I thought that Kira and Lacus had way more interaction than Kira Fllay, however the latter did have more development owing to how the relationships are linked to Kira's character development through seed.

Lacus was only present in a few episodes of SEED where she was shown to be interacting with Kira. This was the same with SEED Destiny, so we can all speculate that Morosawa put those little "intimate" moments Lacus and Kira have to make most of their supposed feelings of love for each other. But as aeriolewinters already posted, there wasn't enough to go by. People can throw in relationship charts in magazines, but the evidence (what "evidence" is present of course) is already within the series itself.

I know many will disagree with me on this but I do not see Kira and Fllay working out in the long term even if she had survived and reconciled with Kira. The relationship was very much like a teenagers relationship which more often than not rarely end up in marriage IRL in contrast to the married couple type of relationship which was portrayed between Kira and Lacus, with which the focus was the companionship (the type that lasts forever) and the mutual understanding they had which was shown in the later episodes of GS where they were able to find comfort in one another without the need for secual intimacy.

People in whatever relationship will always have their little arguments every now and then. Now, whether it's going to make them go on with the relationship or end it is their choice.

Arguments every now and then (and of course making up after) is part of the process to make relationships stronger. It's a process showing that the couple is indeed getting to know each other better. Whatever flaws they have, what little secrets and what have you, they find out about it, and of course, this might go against what the couple might have believed about each other when they were first dating. You can't have real understanding of each other when you don't even have an argument every now and then.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by BladeEntity

I know many will disagree with me on this but I do not see Kira and Fllay working out in the long term even if she had survived and reconciled with Kira.

Kira might be the biggest Capt. Kirk in all of Gundam (If you don't know what that is, go listen to rap song from the late 90's)...I see nothing that would have prevented him from being with the girl who changed him and who he in-turn changed for the better...Kira and Fllay have one of the best written and executed love-hate relationships in all of Gundam...How she used him as a fighting puppet would make Dullindal (Durandal) $hit his pants, but what's most interesting about their dynamic (aside from the forbidden fruit aspect), is that it's an organic relationship that comes about amongst the horror of war where the comfort of a women to a mentally fragile young MS pilot has resonance... Kira could never have become the MS pilot he wound up being without Fllay's chapter...The emotionless automaton we see in GSD is Kira after passing through the unbridled passion of Fllay Allstar...


And so what she was manipulative...How many guys are in love with their manipulative GF's? Now your GF might fake some tears to get a new waffle iron as opposed to sexing for MS puppetry, but the logic is the same, if you like the chick you'll allow it, and I see no reason why Kira wouldn't have still been into Fllay in the end had she survived, simply because he's Kira...That one moment of him seeing she was alive (before she got Rau'd) is more visible emotion than Lacus has ever seen barring reused animation cells...

Perhaps he wouldn't have been living in a love shack with 25 illegitimate crumb-snatchers had Fllay survived, but he woulda still been Tim Tebowing out there on the battlefield with a hawt redhead at home...

[rakusukira]

we should be fussing about why Athrun and Cagalli had to break up

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

You know, let me tell you a little story of my stint here in Animesuki. When Destiny first aired, I was one of you guys. If someone has an archive from Destiny's first showing, I'm pretty much pro Lacus during the series' start. Whatever changed in her characterization(or lack thereof), that was the last straw for me. I loathed what they did to Kira and Lacus' relationship because, no friction means no worth. In a real relationship, the partners are subjected to trials, many...many times. Morosawa, by making Lacus her self-insert assured that Kira and her will never match the chemistry between Fllay and Kira.

And how do you know that there's no trial between Kira and Lacus? The fact of the matter is that SEED Destiny has never been about the daily lives of Kira and Lacus as a couple. Suffice it to say that, from the appearances that they do have in Destiny, that they are a couple. We can't really conclude anything beyond that.

[aeriolewinters]

And how do you know that there's no trial between Kira and Lacus? The fact of the matter is that SEED Destiny has never been about the daily lives of Kira and Lacus as a couple. Suffice it to say that, from the appearances that they do have in Destiny, that they are a couple. We can't really conclude anything beyond that.

There's none. nada, null. If there was, then there'll be subtle hints of one, or even just a mention. Don't pretend that they can't focus on romance for Kira, because they can. Look at SEED. This was exactly why the shift from Shinn to Kira didn't make sense. With suddenly making Kira main character, everything had to take a shot, characterization, and story wise.

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

There's none. nada, null. If there was, then there'll be subtle hints of one, or even just a mention. Don't pretend that they can't focus on romance for Kira, because they can. Look at SEED. This was exactly why the shift from Shinn to Kira didn't make sense. With suddenly making Kira main character, everything had to take a shot, characterization, and story wise.

Well, I never consider Kira to be the lead character anyway.

[aeriolewinters]

Well, I never consider Kira to be the lead character anyway.

Which is why you don't see clearly yet, how Destiny murdered whatever is left of Kira's character.With him being the focus of the last two cours, they practically made him a cardboard cutout, void of compassion, and almost automaton-like(as wd said). And we can thank Lacus' shoddy and Bella-level characterization for it.

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Which is why you don't see clearly yet, how Destiny murdered whatever is left of Kira's character.With him being the focus of the last two cours, they practically made him a cardboard cutout, void of compassion, and almost automaton-like(as wd said).

No, I simply see things differently than you. Kira's character in SEED is a product of the burden he carried as a result of all the responsibility that is suddenly forced upon him. And as far as I'm concerned, Kira's character in Destiny merely reflects the fact that he longer feels that same burden. I'm sorry if you feel that Kira is "a cardboard cutout, void of compassion, and almost automaton-like," but I don't. But even if Kira was all of that, it still doesn't change the fact that his relationship with Lacus was never a major focus of Destiny and didn't need to be.

[aeriolewinters]

But even if Kira was all of that, it still doesn't change the fact that his relationship with Lacus was never a major focus of Destiny and didn't need to be.

Riiight, So why did Dullindal specifically lament on Kira meeting Lacus. ALSO !SHOPPING SCENE, the few, scenes we see them together in ep 26, 39 all were trying to build something. But they fell flat because Morosawa didn't want Lacus to go under. Again, if there's something that ruined Lacus' characterization, and the reason she can't carry a believable relationship with Kira, is because of the way she's portrayed. Even Rie Tanaka admits to having difficulty portraying her because of said flaws in her characterization(or lack of)

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Riiight, So why did Dullindal specifically lament on Kira meeting Lacus.

Whatever the reason, it sure wasn't because he thinks they would make terrible lovers.

ALSO !SHOPPING SCENE, the few, scenes we see them together in ep 26, 39 all were trying to build something.

Yes, they were all trying to establish that they are a couple.

But they fell flat because Morosawa didn't want Lacus to go under. Again, if there's something that ruined Lacus' characterization, and the reason she can't carry a believable relationship with Kira, is because of the way she's portrayed. Even Rie Tanaka admits to having difficulty portraying her because of said flaws in her characterization(or lack of)

Why? Because they needed to have some "trials" to be considered a couple?

If you see two people walking together holding hands in the park, do you say to yourself, "Hmm, they might be a couple, but I won't know for sure until I can hear them arguing?"

[aeriolewinters]

If you see two people walking together holding hands in the park, do you say to yourself, "Hmm, they might be a couple, but I won't know for sure until I can hear them arguing?

You're barking at the wrong tree here, I didn't say they weren't, I said they weren't that good, compared to the alternative, or even Kira/Cagalli, and that Lacus' Characterization doomed the pairing altogether.

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

You're barking at the wrong tree here, I didn't say they weren't, I said they weren't that good, compared to the alternative, or even Kira/Cagalli, and that Lacus' Characterization doomed the pairing altogether.

And my point is, since there were no real focus on them (as a couple) anyway, it didn't really matter. I certainly think loathing their relationship is way overreacting.

And by the way, just as a disclaimer:

My preference for Kira's relationship:

1. Kira and Cagalli (before the whole sibling plot), especially as a rival to Kira and Flay.
2. Kira and Flay (before she ended up dead).
3. Kira and Lacus (I'll settle.)

[aeriolewinters]

And my point is, since there were no real focus on them (as a couple) anyway, it didn't really matter. I certainly think loathing their relationship is way overreacting.

And here's where I'm different: I don't loathe the relationship, I loathe how it was done.
with utter disrespect to both Lacus and Kira's character. Lacus is shown to be compassionate, understanding but what does she do in an episode where Kira just failed to save Fllay in a pod? She absolutely forces her way in the discussion, with no due respect.

With Kira, he's shown to somehow become stoic and seem to have forgotten about the whole ordeal with Fllay, hell even Athrun has Fllay's flashback and Kira doesn't. That's bullshit. Out of respect, Morosawa could've written a scene wherein Kira still reminisces on episode 8(or whenever Athrun first visits Kira) of Destiny, but no. Because she wanted to make her bella-like character to look good. You don't recover that fast from that kind of heartbreak, that easily.

This is why Kira/Lacus feels hollow, because they don't give a damn about how to build the relationship first. They just stuck the two most popular characters together, and expected to rake in as much money.

[monster]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

And here's where I'm different: I don't loathe the relationship, I loathe how it was done.
with utter disrespect to both Lacus and Kira's character. Lacus is shown to be compassionate, understanding but what does she do in an episode where Kira just failed to save Fllay in a pod? She absolutely forces her way in the discussion, with no due respect.

Um, Lacus was just worried about Kira. How is she forcing her way?

With Kira, he's shown to somehow become stoic and seem to have forgotten about the whole ordeal with Fllay, hell even Athrun has Fllay's flashback and Kira doesn't. That's bullshit. Out of respect, Morosawa could've written a scene wherein Kira still reminisces on episode 8(or whenever Athrun first visits Kira) of Destiny, but no. Because she wanted to make her bella-like character to look good. You don't recover that fast from that kind of heartbreak, that easily.

The fact that Kira's relationship with Lacus isn't any further than it is in Destiny should be enough to show that Flay still has an effect on Kira.