Macross Frontier - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Anh_Minh]

It's not like Alto had to make much in the way of judgment calls, even with the added firepower. Here are the enemies, shoot them. Whether you're given a bow and arrow or a nuke, what's the difference? (Well, it'd have been different if he'd operated in a collateral damage prone area, and had to balance the safety of civilians if he shot versus their safety if he let them go. But they were in space.)

[Sleepy100]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It's not like Alto had to make much in the way of judgment calls, even with the added firepower. Here are the enemies, shoot them. Whether you're given a bow and arrow or a nuke, what's the difference? (Well, it'd have been different if he'd operated in a collateral damage prone area, and had to balance the safety of civilians if he shot versus their safety if he let them go. But they were in space.)

Sure, the enemies are there. Some of your allies are engaging them. Just use a reaction missile to destroy them all. Nice call, you just killed your friendlies along with the foes. I've seen morons do stuff like that and those people so do not deserve a promotion. Glad that Alto isn't one of them.

[Wesley84]

Why are they putting nukes on fightercraft anyway? It's not like the Vajra fleet was hundreds of miles away with a planet's horizon in the way. They were less than fifty kilometers out in space. There's no reason to put them on fighters which would probably be easier to intercept than the missles themselves (if it weren't for character shielding that is).

And using them to clear groups of strikecraft, well, that's just plain inefficient, since the Vajra should have noticed the nukes headed towards them and dispersed on their own. Unless you want to say Victors and Varmits, and by extension, VF-25s, aren't able to avoid nuclear blasts.

[Sleepy100]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Why are they putting nukes on fightercraft anyway? It's not like the Vajra fleet was hundreds of miles away with a planet's horizon in the way. They were less than fifty kilometers out in space. There's no reason to put them on fighters which would probably be easier to intercept than the missles themselves (if it weren't for character shielding that is).

And using them to clear groups of strikecraft, well, that's just plain inefficient, since the Vajra should have noticed the nukes headed towards them and dispersed on their own. Unless you want to say Victors and Varmits, and by extension, VF-25s, aren't able to avoid nuclear blasts.

It's called strategy, one that is very similar to what the US used against Iraq. Open a hole in the enemies line. (Macross Frontier used Nuclear weapons. The US used airstrike and tactical bombings.) Then go through the hole in the line to attack the command center. (The SMS went through the line to directly attack the command ship. The US lead their ground force to directly hit Baghdad.) Then mop up any stragglers.

[Anh_Minh]

Well, the Vajra thought as you did: that no one would be daft enough to put nukes on a fighter in those conditions. Therefore, all he carried were slightly bigger than normal missiles, no biggie. And the, surprise! Kaboom.

[Supah Em]

Originally Posted by Sleepy100

It's called strategy, one that is very similar to what the US used against Iraq. Open a hole in the enemies line. (Macross Frontier used Nuclear weapons. The US used airstrike and tactical bombings.) Then go through the hole in the line to attack the command center. (The SMS went through the line to directly attack the command ship. The US lead their ground force to directly hit Baghdad.) Then mop up any stragglers.

yeah and see the war today. but im not going deeper than that

[sekidousai]

Maybe the captain attended one of 'em bush seminars.
... anywayz i loved the nukes on the plane. it's quite cool. Although i never heard the Captain approving the nukes for Alto. Maybe Alto thought it was cool and told the crew to put it there anywayz?

Originally Posted by Wesley84
Why are they putting nukes on fightercraft anyway? It's not like the Vajra fleet was hundreds of miles away with a planet's horizon in the way.

....now that you have mentioned it.... Why would you use nukes on a Rescue operation???? that is quite err an overkill

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by sekidousai

Maybe the captain attended one of 'em bush seminars.
... anywayz i loved the nukes on the plane. it's quite cool. Although i never heard the Captain approving the nukes for Alto. Maybe Alto thought it was cool and told the crew to put it there anywayz?

He did, IIRC. "Warrant Officer Saotome, you are authorized to use for the captains pack and reaction warheads", or somesuch.

Originally Posted by sekidousai

....now that you have mentioned it.... Why would you use nukes on a Rescue operation???? that is quite err an overkill

Clearly because they were highly efficient to clear the way for Alto... every Vajra fighter in his path was obliterated and he had a free way to the mothership.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Sleepy100

It's called strategy, one that is very similar to what the US used against Iraq. Open a hole in the enemies line. (Macross Frontier used Nuclear weapons. The US used airstrike and tactical bombings.) Then go through the hole in the line to attack the command center. (The SMS went through the line to directly attack the command ship. The US lead their ground force to directly hit Baghdad.) Then mop up any stragglers.

Except nuclear weapons shouldn't be very effective against strikecraft that can move 11 kilometers a second minimum. The Vajra dodge, Alto and his moronic friends go through the "hole" and immediately get pounced on by Victors and Varmits. Hell, the "Itano Circus" shouldn't even be used to clear strikecraft. In the original Macross, when it was first used, the idea seemed to be to use hundreds of missles to overwhelm a hardened targets point defense with lots of short range missles.

I'm just getting really tired of seeing the "heroism" of the SMS at the expense of pretty much everything else in the show, except Ranka's career, and the lame conspiracy they call a plot.

[SuperKnuckles]

To be fair to the development of the mecha technology, reactive weaponry seems way more powerful than it's been led on in Macross originally and we never know how much more advanced such weaponry is. You really can't compare the Itano/Macross missiles to reactive weapons since it's conventional weaponry vs NUKES.

Also, they basically carpet-bombed the space with nukes, so I don't think it makes sense to say it wasn't used strategically, because it was. It carpet-bombed the whole swath so they can't easily escape.

[Tabris]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Except nuclear weapons shouldn't be very effective against strikecraft that can move 11 kilometers a second minimum. The Vajra dodge, Alto and his moronic friends go through the "hole" and immediately get pounced on by Victors and Varmits. Hell, the "Itano Circus" shouldn't even be used to clear strikecraft. In the original Macross, when it was first used, the idea seemed to be to use hundreds of missles to overwhelm a hardened targets point defense with lots of short range missles.

I'm just getting really tired of seeing the "heroism" of the SMS at the expense of pretty much everything else in the show, except Ranka's career, and the lame conspiracy they call a plot.

It's times like that we apply a little thing called suspension in disbelief. Even if it is totally absurd, common sense be damned.

[SuperKnuckles]

Is it really that big a leap in disbelief though? If you look at the history of Macross, reactive weaponry and other forms of massive warfare nukes were only used in the largest, most desperate battles, especially where there were capital ships to be found and aimed at. That's precisely what happened in Frontier.

Which is why I think the whole "single Vajra is too fast for a nuke" sounds strange, because they obviously do not use a nuke for a singular, fast, recon-speed craft. If they were to do THAT, then it'd be seriously unrealistic. But they don't. The nukes are a strategic weaponry for large scale battles.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

Is it really that big a leap in disbelief though? If you look at the history of Macross, reactive weaponry and other forms of massive warfare nukes were only used in the largest, most desperate battles, especially where there were capital ships to be found and aimed at. That's precisely what happened in Frontier.

Which is why I think the whole "single Vajra is too fast for a nuke" sounds strange, because they obviously do not use a nuke for a singular, fast, recon-speed craft. If they were to do THAT, then it'd be seriously unrealistic. But they don't. The nukes are a strategic weaponry for large scale battles.

Except they cleared whole swathes of Vajra with a couple nukes. I'm saying that shouldn't have worked the way it did, because the Vajra would have and should have been able to dodge them.

Originally Posted by Tabris

It's times like that we apply a little thing called suspension in disbelief. Even if it is totally absurd, common sense be damned.

I appreciate suspension of disbelief when it comes to super tech and magic, and things of that nature. Disbelief arises when I see characters acting like idiots and being babied by the plot and writers all for the sake of appearances.

[pkang0327]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Hikaru was awarded a medal for rescuing Misa, and the circumstances required a new squad leader. Making Hikaru a squadleader would, theoritcally, save new pilots as they'd have the benefit of his experience for whatever it was worth. Alto's new rank just seems to be a title though with an implied pay raise.

Thats true, but I was relating on how Alto could be ranked higher than Michel even though Michel is the "Senpai".

Last I knew, the military isn't on a seniority only system. Just because you served LONGER doesn't mean you will always be a higher rank.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by pkang0327

Thats true, but I was relating on how Alto could be ranked higher than Michel even though Michel is the "Senpai".

Last I knew, the military isn't on a seniority only system. Just because you served LONGER doesn't mean you will always be a higher rank.

I was under the impression they were the same rank now.

[squaresphere]

The thing about the Vajra dodging the reaction weapons doesn't really make sense.

1st they would have to understand the nature of Reaction weapons.

2nd if they understood the nature of the weapons, they probably target the units carrying them 1st (it's not like the missiles are hidden internal bays or anything)

3rd The only other times that might have encountered reaction weapons was ep 7 and with the 117th fleet. (obviously there probably was no attack on Galaxy. The 117th fleet was a research based I some how doubt that they had reaction weapons. In ep 7 all vajra were destroyed)

4th if all the above is known to the Vajra then why don't they at least try to intercept the missiles when they're fired, ala all the torpedo interception missions found in sci fi.

If we say that Alto was being plot coddled with the reaction weapons working the way they did, then Monster pilot was coddled as well.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by squaresphere

The thing about the Vajra dodging the reaction weapons doesn't really make sense.

1st they would have to understand the nature of Reaction weapons.

2nd if they understood the nature of the weapons, they probably target the units carrying them 1st (it's not like the missiles are hidden internal bays or anything)

3rd The only other times that might have encountered reaction weapons was ep 7 and with the 117th fleet. (obviously there probably was no attack on Galaxy. The 117th fleet was a research based I some how doubt that they had reaction weapons. In ep 7 all vajra were destroyed)

4th if all the above is known to the Vajra then why don't they at least try to intercept the missiles when they're fired, ala all the torpedo interception missions found in sci fi.

If we say that Alto was being plot coddled with the reaction weapons working the way they did, then Monster pilot was coddled as well.

You deserve a cookie. I was waiting for someone to point out that they might just not know what the heck they were. So in the future then, nukes shouldn't work against them like that, all things being equal i.e. no Ranka bashing their heads in.

Alto was plot coddled though. Technically speaking he shouldn't have even arrived at that battle like he did, since the Vajra are supposed to be masters of Fold space, and Alto was at least a day behind them using the booster he had.

[Zhaozhou]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Why are they putting nukes on fightercraft anyway? It's not like the Vajra fleet was hundreds of miles away with a planet's horizon in the way. They were less than fifty kilometers out in space.

Technically the distance is bigger because Vajra lured NUNS forces on the other side of the Macross Frontier, so make it double

Then again, we are talking about distances on which we don't have official data. What we know is that Island 1 is long 15 km. The other Islands have a similar length, and there are several of them trailing after Island 1. "Less than 50" you say; make it 100 and we have a deal

Originally Posted by Wesley84

There's no reason to put them on fighters which would probably be easier to intercept than the missles themselves (if it weren't for character shielding that is).

No, because there are a lot of small Vajra in the way that notice them. The fighters at least are able to retaliate

Also I think you don't have noticed that most of nukes fired against a Vajra battleship were shot down

Originally Posted by Wesley84

And using them to clear groups of strikecraft, well, that's just plain inefficient, since the Vajra should have noticed the nukes headed towards them and dispersed on their own. Unless you want to say Victors and Varmits, and by extension, VF-25s, aren't able to avoid nuclear blasts.

Even if they dispersed, by the time they came back to the area they were guarding Alto would have already passed, so their purpose would have been fulfilled

[Zhaozhou]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Alto was plot coddled though. Technically speaking he shouldn't have even arrived at that battle like he did, since the Vajra are supposed to be masters of Fold space, and Alto was at least a day behind them using the booster he had.

Why, since he was using the new Fold Booster that cut through fault surfaces exactly like a Vajra?

[squaresphere]

Well i'm not saying the reaction weapons shouldn't work on the Vajra. It's that I don't think reactions weapons are really like nukes in the Macross Universe. Also that the Vajra have some odd behavior when it comes to interacting with weapons of this type.

Ok I know, it's establish that Reaction weapons are "nukes" but here me out. In MF they don't exactly have the same application.

1) their explosion seems to persist self beyond the initial detonations. ie they kept burning more like napalm.
2) I don't know much about explosion speed, but reactions warheads seems to be a very quick almost instantaneous really.

Also since fusion is also Macross I figure the reaction weapons are more fusion based than fission. What does that mean? I really don't know.

On the Vajra behavior in regards to reaction weapons.
The thought that the Vajra drones could dodge/out run a reaction weapon is highly dependent on the drones ability to ID and respond to Reaction weapons being deployed.

If we look like it from a bug perspective, ants don't know a can of bug spray is dangerous to them until come in contact with the toxic substance inside. And even then, later generations of ants will exhibit the same behavior of not knowing the can contains bad news for them.

Even go one further, we know the Queen seems to be intelligent but the drones have barely functional brains so the thought that they can "remember" something is low.

SO if the queen is there, sure I could see the drones reaction forcefully to the deployment of reaction weapons, ie going on intercepts and prioritizing reaction weapons armed ships, under the direction of the Queen. Blow up the Queen ala Alto and the rest of the "swarm" forgets what reaction weapons are and just go back to blowing up the closest thing near them.