Rozen Maiden Zurückspulen - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Kismet-chan]

Originally Posted by Uberchu

Rozen Maiden's manga still sells well. I blame DEEN for the recap and doll shrinking.

I like their size in Zurückspulen, personally. They feel a bit more grounded. Shinku being about half [Wound] Jun's height just seemed way too big to me. I mean, I know they're quite big in the manga as well, but... I don't know. Making them smaller this time around made them feel more like actual dolls in my perspective. Every time [Unwound] Jun picked Shinku up, I really got the feeling that he was holding something delicate and ornate. When [Young] Jun picked Shinku up in the first series, she was so big that it seemed comical. Like he could just chuck her off a building and she wouldn't have a scratch on her, or something.

Dolls that big irl don't seem elegant to me at all... (I have a Grandmother who owns some dolls that big or larger... they're hideous and frightening. T_T)

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Kismet

Dolls that big irl don't seem elegant to me at all... (I have a Grandmother who owns some dolls that big or larger... they're hideous and frightening. T_T)

you know those dolls are going to kill you in your sleep now, right (I mean, Suigintou is still angry over being called 'junk' by Shinku over a century later)

rip Kismet, we will never forget you ;_;


While I honestly find the loyalty of the Nomad crowd quite touching, I have to throw in my weight behind Zurückspulen for the best Rozen Maiden series. Lovely little show, this was. The observations that Triple made about the differences in the anime landscape during the mid-2000s is an interesting one, and are largely news to me since I'm not well-versed in that time period; I think the anime world was quite different during 2008 even (aka the tail end of the decade; it's not until 2009 that anime largely feels the same to me stylistically as what we've been given in the 2010s), so of course things were rather different during the mid-decade. I also wonder if part of the lowered sales issue isn't due to, well, piracy? Downloading songs was long since rampant by the time of Nomad Rozen Maiden, but I don't think that downloading episodes of television series (which are much larger than the ~5-10 megabytes most songs at the time entailed) was nearly as common a decade ago as it is today. I don't think it was until 2004 that dial-up stopped being the dominant connection speed in the US and was finally surpassed by higher-speed internet, and I'm guessing Japan progressed at about the same speed.

[Gohan78]

I decided to consider the last few minutes of the final episode as an extended preview for a hypothetical Season 4, because otherwise I would have to subract some points for the rushed ending. This series was a decent adaptation but it had some obvious pacing issues.

They started with that crazy fast recap (which would have been better as a 1-hour special), then they slowed the pace to a single manga chapter per episode up to episode 8, then they reprised the breakneck pace for the finale (5-6 chapters per episode, losing many fan-favourite moments in the process).

I think it was a conscious decision by the director to focus the series on Adult Jun's struggles rather than the dolls' antics, a decision that unfortunately didn't pay in terms of sales. It would have been better to take a more balanced approach, adapting 2-3 manga chapters per episode.
When the show was good, it really shined but it was such a roller-coaster that I can't give it more than a 7/10 final score.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't see that "poetic tortured soul" gothic-style girl played straight as much as I used to.

IMO it was never popular to begin with (in other words, Nomad steered away knowing it would bomb badly). In the previous Rozen Maiden anime the primary trope was "cute dolls doing cute things" (or "the dolls just wanna have fun"), Suiginto was a delicious villain, always smirking or laughing, she was having FUN being the antagonist and spreading grief.

Meanwhile what do we have in Zurückspulen:

Shinku. Oh, my body is going to dissapear ;_;
Suiginto. Oh, where has Meg gone ;_;
Hinaichigo. Oh, I am a lamb that has been devoured ;_;
Suiseki. Oh, where is my other half desu ;_;
Kirakishou. Oh, nobody loves me ;_;

Souseiseki was always stoic but back then played the straight doll and Kanaria is the only only that is not suffering all the time, i guess.

As for the reduced size, for me it was a non-issue since they hardly did anything, if they had interacted more with the world around them it would have become quite obvious such small sizes were quite inconvenient.

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

you know those dolls are going to kill you in your sleep now, right (I mean, Suigintou is still angry over being called 'junk' by Shinku over a century later)

I can almost hear Suiginto while she uses a pillow to suffocate Kismet-chan while soundly sleeping.

"Ara, who is hideous? Who did you say was frightening? I can't hear you! Oh, you have stopped breathing, serves you well *lifts hand close to mouth while lifting pinky finger* ahahaha"

I also wonder if part of the lowered sales issue isn't due to, well, piracy? Downloading songs was long since rampant by the time of Nomad Rozen Maiden, but I don't think that downloading episodes of television series (which are much larger than the ~5-10 megabytes most songs at the time entailed) was nearly as common a decade ago as it is today. I don't think it was until 2004 that dial-up stopped being the dominant connection speed in the US and was finally surpassed by higher-speed internet, and I'm guessing Japan progressed at about the same speed.

I watched anime back then (and before) and let me remind you that 720p has 2 2/3 more information that 480p (and 480i has half the information of 480p). Also, back then anime rarely was distributed at full size, 320x240 (which has less than 1/4 the information) was high quality. So file sizes in the 20-50mbytes were common (back then realmedia was common, divx was top of the line). So you could use hotline in the wee hours of the night to download several episodes even with dialup. But hey, you don't have to believe me when I say piracy played no role at all in the difference in sales, here are some cold numbers from a source that usually is spreading the FUD about how piracy is going to doom the industry. The internet might have something to do with decreased popularity, since news about what is hot and what is not spread like wildfire nowadays, back then sometimes you watched shows without the faintest idea what kind of show it was

[Jan-Poo]

The first Rozen Maiden anime aired in 2004. The file sharing system was already running at full regime back then (with anime episode sizes about 120-172 MB retaining an acceptable quality with xvid and divx tehcnology). If you want to speculate about how things were before the rampant distribution of copyrighted video material through internet you need to go back at least to the pre-bittorrent era (2001 ca).

[Dr. Casey]

Yeah, I know that video sharing existed by the time of the first Rozen Maiden series and had already gained a considerable amount of steam, but I still would be surprised if video sharing wasn't significantly less commonplace in 2004 than it is today, to the point where DVDs released in 2004 might have been in a more secure position than DVDs released in 2013. Something can of course be decently popular and widespread but still have a lot of room to grow.

But yeah, I was just throwing random thoughts out there; will certainly take yours and ogon's word for it if you say that downloading stuff didn't have much impact on anything.

[Triple_R]

Likewise, I was just throwing a pretty random thought out there. I'm kind of tired of the conventional reason given for Zurückspulen's lack of commercial success, so I thought I'd go for something different.

[ChainLegacy]

If it was the only outcome other than selling its soul for moe drivel, then I guess I'm happy it ended up a flop. I still thought the dolls were pretty cute, but the story was about Jun, and I'm not watching anime for cuteness, I'm watching it for cool or dramatic stories, fights, or both. I understand this isn't everyone's outlook, but that's where I stand.

[Kismet-chan]

Originally Posted by ogon_bat

IMO it was never popular to begin with (in other words, Nomad steered away knowing it would bomb badly). In the previous Rozen Maiden anime the primary trope was "cute dolls doing cute things" (or "the dolls just wanna have fun"), Suiginto was a delicious villain, always smirking or laughing, she was having FUN being the antagonist and spreading grief.

Meanwhile what do we have in Zurückspulen:

Shinku. Oh, my body is going to dissapear ;_;
Suiginto. Oh, where has Meg gone ;_;
Hinaichigo. Oh, I am a lamb that has been devoured ;_;
Suiseki. Oh, where is my other half desu ;_;
Kirakishou. Oh, nobody loves me ;_;

Souseiseki was always stoic but back then played the straight doll and Kanaria is the only only that is not suffering all the time, i guess.

I think it's a little bit of the other way around when it comes to Suigintou. The very reason why she even became my favorite all those years ago is because Nomad made her a LOT more tragic in their series, and I personally loved that. They played up the "tortured soul" theme with her significantly. She was diabolical and enjoyed it, but she wasn't always like that, and there was a ton of reasoning for it. Manga/Zurückspulen Suigintou has less of a reason. She's initially just doing whatever she thinks is amusing. She does get very toned down by her attachment to Meg, but their bond is deeper and further explored in the manga.

But if one has not read the manga, I can understand how that's harder to see.

Originally Posted by ogon_bat

I can almost hear Suiginto while she uses a pillow to suffocate Kismet-chan while soundly sleeping.

Absurd. Suigintou and I are too alike. We would probably get along so well that it would sicken her to some degree.

[Uberchu]

Originally Posted by Kismet-chan

I think it's a little bit of the other way around when it comes to Suigintou. The very reason why she even became my favorite all those years ago is because Nomad made her a LOT more tragic in their series, and I personally loved that. They played up the "tortured soul" theme with her significantly. She was diabolical and enjoyed it, but she wasn't always like that, and there was a ton of reasoning for it. Manga/Zurückspulen Suigintou has less of a reason. She's initially just doing whatever she thinks is amusing. She does get very toned down by her attachment to Meg, but their bond is deeper and further explored in the manga.

Manga Suigintou was always a tragic character though. She's not doing whatever she thinks is amusing, she's doing everything out of her love for Father. She's accepted that the Rozen Maidens' ultimate fate is despair. Kira even said "Your love for Father is so strong that you want to kill him." If Nomad Suigintou has an inferiority complex, then Manga Gin has a superiority complex because she's the first doll and views the other dolls as beneath her.

[Kismet-chan]

Yeah, looking back on my post, I didn't state that in the correct way. I meant to say that to an anime-only viewer, Zurückspulen Suigintou might seem as if she's being a bitch for little to no reason/simply for amusement, but that's not the case. And yes, she is still a tragic character in the manga, that is never something I denied. Nomad just went about it in a very dramatic and showy manner (or so I'd like to think).

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

... then I guess I'm happy it ended up a flop...

I would say I am glad for very different reasons (I have nothing against moe). This proves without any doubt that japanese otaku do not mindlessly buy whatever series from a popular franchise is "in" at the moment, they make a decision after they have evaluated the worthiness on a series by series case. This would also explain why some second seasons *cough*NyarukoW*cough* have bombed so hard, if it sells is because people really liked it, not just because a famous mangaka / director / writer /seiyuu was part of the cast.

[Uberchu]

Originally Posted by ogon_bat

I would say I am glad for very different reasons (I have nothing against moe). This proves without any doubt that japanese otaku do not mindlessly buy whatever series from a popular franchise is "in" at the moment, they make a decision after they have evaluated the worthiness on a series by series case. This would also explain why some second seasons *cough*NyarukoW*cough* have bombed so hard, if it sells is because people really liked it, not just because a famous mangaka / director / writer /seiyuu was part of the cast.

Yes, Sword Art Online and Infinite Stratos are masterpieces of anime that deserved every dollar they made.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Uberchu

Yes, Sword Art Online and Infinite Stratos are masterpieces of anime that deserved every dollar they made.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and as I have said before, what anime (or video game, album, etc.) is better is subjective, so being worthy of a purchase depends of each and every individual subjective choices. Maybe a lot of people liked the series, but not enough to buy the discs or maybe they will wait to buy them at a lower price or buy a used set (which amounts zero extra income to the original companies). The end result is the same for most of us, every year we see series we like that enjoy great success and get more episodes and others sell so poorly they do not appear in the weekly 100 top disc sales (I am looking at you Blood Lad). No need to get bitter about it, it makes watching anime less enjoyable.

[kache]

Finished it.
Meh. No idea what happened.
Whatever, happy that it's over.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In other words, the style and aesthetics of the Rozen Maidens themselves has perhaps faded a bit. I don't see that "poetic tortured soul" gothic-style girl played straight as much as I used to. Yes, you have Ore no Imouto's Kuroneko and Chuunibyou's Rikka, but there's a certain tongue-in-cheek element to it that you don't see with Suigintou and her master who are played totally straight.

Perhaps the style and sensibilities of Rozen Maiden are now simply out of fashion. It can happen. You don't see a lot of Spike Spiegel's around any more either.

In anime certainly...There's still plenty of such in manga but in anime, it's getting harder and harder to find once you get past 2007...

Pity because I love gothic horror/tragedy