Character Discussion - Lelouch

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Isn't it?
Sacrificing people for nothing but one's own concept of "justice" that will never be able to help anyone isn't my idea of morality.

As soon as one gives up hope, then they give up any chance of ever achieving that goal. Maybe if it one person or a small group, it might fly, but the resistance in Area 11 was a lot worse than it was anywhere else. They actually had a shot (a very long one, mind you) and thus their hope was not misplaced.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Actually, after what had happened with Euphie, I don't think you can blame him more for betraying his friend than the terrorists for what they did.

Not blaming him, just pointing out that he shot himself in the foot. Bismarck said it himself. He proved himself to be untrustworthy, and you do not put an untrustworthy person in the top spot.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I'm not so sure if terrorism can truly motivate people to change something. Especially if the opponent is someone who will eventually crush those terrorists and trample on everyone who might have supported them just for good measure - in this case, the Elevens.

Without the terrorism, Euphie's plan would have never gotten off the ground. There'd be no reason to approve it, since the only reason they let it go was to stifle the mounting resistance. For that matter, she'd never have even conceived it.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Exactly my thoughts, however there's one difference in my opinion. While the terrorists had no chance in beating Cornelia, much less Schneizel, Suzaku actually was really close to achieving his goal in S1. The SAZ almost became a reality as Euphie won Lelouch over to her side. By that point in time, Kallen, the symbol of the resistance wasn't even close to achieving her goal, and had it not been for the geass tragedy Lelouch would've joined Euphie and the resistance movement would've been as good as dead.

You're ignoring the fact that the plan was only allowed to go on because it was a good way to stifle the terrorists. It wasn't change and it wasn't freedom, it was one girl's way of trying to recapture her childhood happiness with Lelouch and Nunnally. As soon as it got the job done, Charles probably would have repealed it. The only reason he even seemed to let it go is because he expected Lelouch to ruin it.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Exactly my thoughts, however there's one difference in my opinion. While the terrorists had no chance in beating Cornelia, much less Schneizel, Suzaku actually was really close to achieving his goal in S1. The SAZ almost became a reality as Euphie won Lelouch over to her side. By that point in time, Kallen, the symbol of the resistance wasn't even close to achieving her goal, and had it not been for the geass tragedy Lelouch would've joined Euphie and the resistance movement would've been as good as dead.

as did the black rebellion
if we are talking about the end sections of season 1 then both suzaku and lelouch (why is kallen the "symbol of the resistance" again ?) were close to achieving their goals
the black knights are an army rivaling britannia's elite
and the plans are in motion for taking over tokyo

you cant compare the situation of the resistance at the start of the show, and then compare it to suzaku at the end of the season
because it ignores all the progress the resistance has made

if by contrast, you want to compare the situation as it was in the first two eps of the show, then suzaku was a faceless mook who almost got put down by his own commanders

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Exactly my thoughts, however there's one difference in my opinion. While the terrorists had no chance in beating Cornelia, much less Schneizel, Suzaku actually was really close to achieving his goal in S1. The SAZ almost became a reality as Euphie won Lelouch over to her side. By that point in time, Kallen, the symbol of the resistance wasn't even close to achieving her goal, and had it not been for the geass tragedy Lelouch would've joined Euphie and the resistance movement would've been as good as dead.

Hm, well, but the moment Lelouch acquired his Geass, the terrorists stopped being common terrorists and actually stood a chance - they also managed to get Britannians thinking. Something similar isn't really true for Suzaku until he met Euphie.
Lelouch changed his mind, yes, but I'm sure he could have convinced the Black Knight to go along with him. They and Suzaku might have reached a common ground... or it would all have broken apart for another reason; we just don't know.
However, the Black Rebellion was definitely rather successful, and they actually had a chance of winning the battle in the final of the first season until Nunally was kidnapped.

Originally Posted by Meatrose

No, but Suzaku's plan would still not have liberated Japan or its citizens. They would still be cattle, it doesn't matter if Suzaku would become the Knight of One and rule over Japan. He would still be the Emperor's pet and Area 11 would still be Area 11, not the independent nation Japan. That's the difference. The freedom fighters were fighting for freedom, not a slightly less oppressed state. Suzaku's plan was never going to be enough and he was in my opinion incredibly naive for believing it would.

Never denied that.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

As soon as one gives up hope, then they give up any chance of ever achieving that goal. Maybe if it one person or a small group, it might fly, but the resistance in Area 11 was a lot worse than it was anywhere else. They actually had a shot (a very long one, mind you) and thus their hope was not misplaced.

They had a chance because Clovis wasn't Cornelia and had no interest in systematically wiping out terrorists.
Yes, Japan had the most active resisance, but I don't hink that says much. The moment Cornelia came, everything threatened to fall to pieces, and it wasn only Lelouch who prevented that.
Hope is good, but most Japanese didn't derive any from what the terrorists did. They were only crushed, and even when the Black Knights appeared and proved they chould actually achieve something, about half of the Elevens were still very sceptical and siding with Suzaku. Before that, there were probably a lot more who thought so.

Not blaming him, just pointing out that he shot himself in the foot. Bismarck said it himself. He proved himself to be untrustworthy, and you do not put an untrustworthy person in the top spot.

It wasn't really well-known that Suzaku had betrayed his best friend - just his own people.

Without the terrorism, Euphie's plan would have never gotten off the ground. There'd be no reason to approve it, since the only reason they let it go was to stifle the mounting resistance. For that matter, she'd never have even conceived it.

I distinguish between "common terrorists" and the Black Knights. It were the latter who actually worried Britannia, and it was still pure chance that Eupie came along.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

As soon as one gives up hope, then they give up any chance of ever achieving that goal.

You're ignoring the fact that the plan was only allowed to go on because it was a good way to stifle the terrorists. It wasn't change and it wasn't freedom, it was one girl's way of trying to recapture her childhood happiness with Lelouch and Nunnally. As soon as it got the job done, Charles probably would have repealed it. The only reason he even seemed to let it go is because he expected Lelouch to ruin it.

Does that apply only to the resistance and spilling rivers of blood? Because I think it can also apply to Suzaku's goal...

Even if the plan was only allowed to exist for a few years, at least it was something. Change was within sight, the resistance had no victory in sight, only more death, destruction and loss.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Does that apply only to the resistance and spilling rivers of blood? Because I think it can also apply to Suzaku's goal...

Even if the plan was only allowed to exist for a few years, at least it was something. Change was within sight, the resistance had no victory in sight, only more death, destruction and loss.

they were going to take over tokyo and drive britannia out
they were in the planning stages for the take over in ep 21
and almost did it in the season final (lelouch leaving was what stopped them)

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

they were going to take over tokyo and drive britannia out
they were in the planning stages for the take over in ep 21
and almost did it in the season final (lelouch leaving was what stopped them)

The Black rebellion was failing even before Lelouch went to find Nunnaly. The Guren lost its main weapon and was outclassed by the new Lancelot, Guilford and the Glaston Knights were doing a good job of holding the Government bureau, the Bks couldn't get passed the automated defenses, and Schneizel was coming with the Pacific fleet. Add to that the fact that Orange was coming for Zero and the Gawain wouldn't be able to support the rest of the Bks because it would be engaging the Siegfried.

The entire plan rested on capturing the Government Bureau and braodcasting a speech to cause the other areas to revolt, if that didn't work the BKs would be crushed, Lelouch or not.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

The Black rebellion was failing even before Lelouch went to find Nunnaly. The Guren lost its main weapon and was outclassed by the new Lancelot, Guilford and the Glaston Knights were doing a good job of holding the Government bureau, the Bks couldn't get passed the automated defenses, and Schneizel was coming with the Pacific fleet. Add to that the fact that Orange was coming for Zero and the Gawain wouldn't be able to support the rest of the Bks because it would be engaging the Siegfried.

The entire plan rested on capturing the Government Bureau and braodcasting a speech to cause the other areas to revolt, if that didn't work the BKs would be crushed, Lelouch or not.

so you say
the lancelot was captured
cornellia, the enemy commander was out of action
and with enough pressure from an organised force, the goverment building would have fallen
the only reason that it all fell apart was that lelouch left in mid battle and took their most powerful weapon with him
and when he left, the tie that united all the resistance factions that had joined the black knights for the attack was also severed
the whole thing turned from one giant organized army into an un-unified collection of resistance groups
diethard himself said that the reason it would fail was not a lack of toudo's skills as a commander, but a lack of zero's charisma as a leader
zero was the glue binding all the forces together under his leadership
when the leader up and runs in mid battle, it tends to screw with the soldiers

with proper organization, the government building would have fallen
and if not fallen in surrender, then hadron cannoned out of existence
and shnizel's fleet would have had a hell of a time trying to fight the gawain (there are no flight enabled KMF's at the time, and normal forces are no match)
in fact, if the goverment building fell, then shnizel may not have bothered trying to come at all
its one thing to reinforce your position, its quite another to try and completely re-take them after you lost them

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

so you say
the lancelot was captured
cornellia, the enemy commander was out of action
and with enough pressure from an organised force, the goverment building would have fallen
the only reason that it all fell apart was that lelouch left in mid battle and took their most powerful weapon with him
and when he left, the tie that united all the resistance factions that had joined the black knights for the attack was also severed
the whole thing turned from one giant organized army into an un-unified collection of resistance groups
diethard himself said that the reason it would fail was not a lack of toudo's skills as a commander, but a lack of zero's charisma as a leader
when the leader up and runs in mid battle, it tends to screw with the soldiers

with proper organization, the government building would have fallen
and if not fallen in surrender, then hadron cannoned out of existence
and shnizel's fleet would have had a hell of a time trying to fight the gawain (there are no flight enabled KMF's at the time, and normal forces are no match)

Suzaku was freed by the Cecile and the Albion, and whether Lelouch left the battlefield or not he still would've been tied up by Orange. Besides, like I said before, Guilford and the Glaston knights were doing fine by themselves vs Todou. That one guy even says that the main force is a diversion, so if they beat them there (4 holy swords) then the rest are just trash.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Suzaku was freed by the Cecile and the Albion, and whether Lelouch left the battlefield or not he still would've been tied up by Orange. Besides, like I said before, Guilford and the Glaston knights were doing fine by themselves vs Todou. That one guy even says that the main force is a diversion, so if they beat them there (4 holy swords) then the rest are just trash.

suzaku was freed in the confusion following zero leaving
a properly orgenized force would have had a better chance at holding back one pilot, in a modified Sutherland
as for guilford, and the GK, they may talk big, but what happens when the "trash" composed of hundreds of other KMF's and led by a charismatic leader overtake the OTHER positions while they are tied down with toudo (and the idea that they COULD beat them is also questionable, since their units are also weaker)
keep in mind that the GK are hardly good assessment at judging power levels when it comes to the elevens (one of the idiots actually tries to take kallen on alone)
as for the sigfreid, it got taken down once, by much less firepower then lelouch had during the attack in the final ep

dont judge the way the battle went AFTER lelouch left as an indication on how it COULD have went if he was there

and this is all missing the point
the resistance was in a position where it could achieve its goals of driving britannia away

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Not blaming him, just pointing out that he shot himself in the foot. Bismarck said it himself. He proved himself to be untrustworthy, and you do not put an untrustworthy person in the top spot.

You're ignoring the fact that the plan was only allowed to go on because it was a good way to stifle the terrorists. It wasn't change and it wasn't freedom, it was one girl's way of trying to recapture her childhood happiness with Lelouch and Nunnally. As soon as it got the job done, Charles probably would have repealed it. The only reason he even seemed to let it go is because he expected Lelouch to ruin it.

You've got some rather persistent misconceptions of Charles, morbos. He didn't actually support his country's racist, power hungry, infighting policies, he'd just given up on trying to change them. As Schniezel said in season two, Charles was an apathetic ruler who'd completely removed himself from the matters of actually ruling a country. As such, there is no way Charles would have taken action to repeal Euphie's innovation.

Again on Charles' personality, the fact that Suzaku openly betrayed Lelouch was precisely one of the reasons he was promoted. As revealed with the 'masks' theme, the one thing Charles loathed was the weak moralizing and deceptive face that people wore to hide their true ambitions. Suzaku, in openly displaying his ambition and ruthlessness by straightforwardly asking for a reward in exchange for capturing the criminal Zero (and at the same time demonstrating his disregard for some supposed bond of friendship long broken), wore no masks. This was how he gained Charles' trust even to the extent that he became the only Rounds aside from Bismarck to learn of the Sword of Akasha.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

You've got some rather persistent misconceptions of Charles, morbos. He didn't actually support his country's racist, power hungry, infighting policies, he'd just given up on trying to change them. As Schniezel said in season two, Charles was an apathetic ruler who'd completely removed himself from the matters of actually ruling a country. As such, there is no way Charles would have taken action to repeal Euphie's innovation.

First, those policies were not around before he came along. He made them. He started the entire expansionist war. it may not have been his goal, but he played the role.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Again on Charles' personality, the fact that Suzaku openly betrayed Lelouch was precisely one of the reasons he was promoted. As revealed with the 'masks' theme, the one thing Charles loathed was the weak moralizing and deceptive face that people wore to hide their true ambitions. Suzaku, in openly displaying his ambition and ruthlessness by straightforwardly asking for a reward in exchange for capturing the criminal Zero (and at the same time demonstrating his disregard for some supposed bond of friendship long broken), wore no masks. This was how he gained Charles' trust even to the extent that he became the only Rounds aside from Bismarck to learn of the Sword of Akasha.

Just because he was willing to promote him to a higher rank does not mean he trusts him. Take Luciano. Would you want this psycho on guard duty? Hell no, his charge would be dead in five minutes. But pit him against the enemy and he'll do you proud. Suzaku was useful, but he wasn't trusted. This is the point Bismarck made. Charles promoted Suzaku because of his blatant willingness to betray people to get a leg up, but such behavior also means he isn't someone you place in a trust position.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

suzaku was freed in the confusion following zero leaving
a properly orgenized force would have had a better chance at holding back one pilot, in a modified Sutherland
as for guilford, and the GK, they may talk big, but what happens when the "trash" composed of hundreds of other KMF's and led by a charismatic leader overtake the OTHER positions while they are tied down with toudo (and the idea that they COULD beat them is also questionable, since their units are also weaker)
keep in mind that the GK are hardly good assessment at judging power levels when it comes to the elevens (one of the idiots actually tries to take kallen on alone)
as for the sigfreid, it got taken down once, by much less firepower then lelouch had during the attack in the final ep

dont judge the way the battle went AFTER lelouch left as an indication on how it COULD have went if he was there

and this is all missing the point
the resistance was in a position where it could achieve its goals of driving britannia away

Heh, you give the resistance far too much credit. You forget that it wasn't just the Black Knights who were missing their leader. Britannia also lost theirs, Cornelia was wounded and out of the battle for good. Despite this Britannia managed to crush the resistance in Tokyo. You can't compare professional soldiers to terrorists, in other words, trash.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Heh, you give the resistance far too much credit. You forget that it wasn't just the Black Knights who were missing their leader. Britannia also lost theirs, Cornelia was wounded and out of the battle for good. Despite this Britannia managed to crush the resistance in Tokyo. You can't compare professional soldiers to terrorists, in other words, trash.

They had the high ground while the Black Knights were fighting, quite literally, an uphill battle. It's easy to win when you have an unimpeded line of slight and your enemy is forced to bottleneck. You give the Britannian army too much credit.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Again on Charles' personality, the fact that Suzaku openly betrayed Lelouch was precisely one of the reasons he was promoted. As revealed with the 'masks' theme, the one thing Charles loathed was the weak moralizing and deceptive face that people wore to hide their true ambitions. Suzaku, in openly displaying his ambition and ruthlessness by straightforwardly asking for a reward in exchange for capturing the criminal Zero (and at the same time demonstrating his disregard for some supposed bond of friendship long broken), wore no masks. This was how he gained Charles' trust even to the extent that he became the only Rounds aside from Bismarck to learn of the Sword of Akasha.

Charles did not trust Suzaku. Early in R2 he tells Suzaku to his face that he is the only KoR to know of Geass. Bismarck having a Geass he once used on a woman who has been "dead" for the better part of a decade makes Charles' statement either a plothole or is just Charles lying through his teeth to keep Suzaku misinformed.

@Revolutionist: If it was left intact, the SAZ would have at best started a wave of violence in all 18 Areas and at worst (again: most likely) kick-started the Third Pacific War.

[ImmortalFire]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

Charles did not trust Suzaku. Early in R2 he tells Suzaku to his face that he is the only KoR to know of Geass. Bismarck having a Geass he once used on a woman who has been "dead" for the better part of a decade makes Charles' statement either a plothole or is just Charles lying through his teeth to keep Suzaku misinformed.

@Revolutionist: If it was left intact, the SAZ would have at best started a wave of violence in all 18 Areas and at worst (again: most likely) kick-started the Third Pacific War.

I'd like to think that it was the latter, but still the emperor never showed signs of trust towards him.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by ImmortalFire

I'd like to think that it was the latter, but still the emperor never showed signs of trust towards him.

My statement of Charles not trusting Suzaku was the latter of the two options. Technically it was a plothole either way, since if Charles didn't trust Suzaku (and he didn't) he shouldn't have even bothered showing Suzaku the Sword of Akasha. Keeping quiet on the matter would still keep Suzaku in the dark about Bismarck's Geass and knowledge thereof, which would make Suzaku's inevitable betrayal that much sloppier as he would not expect another Rounds to be guarding Charles when he was around anything pertaining to Geass.

If he actually did trust Suzaku, then he would have been telling the truth about him being the only Rounds to know of Geass, thus Bismarck's Geass would be a plothole.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Actually, after what had happened with Euphie, I don't think you can blame him more for betraying his friend than the terrorists for what they did.

Except that he helped the man responsible for screwing up not only Lelouch, but Japan. Not only that, but he continued to aid that very person. In other words, full of shit.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

The fact that these terrorists kept resisting further proved to Clovis and Cornelia that these guys were "savages" who killed their siblings and therefore deserved to be treated harshly. They, as in Ougi, Tamaki, Kallen, and the other members of the cell are directly responsible for the lives lost in Shinjuku. Their blood is not just simply on Clovis' hands, or Suzaku's. Their hands are just as fracking bloodied because it was them who led the Britannians to the ghetto because they stole something that didn't belong to them. And it's not like they stole food to feed the hungry, oh no they stole what they thought to be a weapon to use on innocent civilians. And you are going to sit there on a high moral chair and call Britannia evil?

double standards ftl.

Clovis only wanted to cover up his own failure as mentioned earlier, and Cornelia was a first-order racist who loved any excuse to slaughter Numbers.

[Yorae_paladin1]

Originally Posted by azul120

Except that he helped the man responsible for screwing up not only Lelouch, but Japan. Not only that, but he continued to aid that very person. In other words, full of shit.



Clovis only wanted to cover up his own failure as mentioned earlier, and Cornelia was a first-order racist who loved any excuse to slaughter Numbers.

Actually no Cornelia was originally indifferent until Lelouch and Nunally "died"that what put her indifference into hatred she thinks of elevens as savages oblivious to the truth

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by azul120

Except that he helped the man responsible for screwing up not only Lelouch, but Japan. Not only that, but he continued to aid that very person. In other words, full of shit.

That's another point altogether, though.

Clovis only wanted to cover up his own failure as mentioned earlier, and Cornelia was a first-order racist who loved any excuse to slaughter Numbers.

Cornelia just "bring(s) to heel whoever resists, that's all".
That's what she told Clovis, along with "leave personal feelings out of this" when he wanted to solve the problems in Area 11 "fair and square". Maybe she wasn't always true to her own principles, but it's not like it was her favourite past-time to slaughter people for the heck of it. The moment their spirits were broken, she would have lost interest.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

That's another point altogether, though.



Cornelia just "bring(s) to heel whoever resists, that's all".
That's what she told Clovis, along with "leave personal feelings out of this" when he wanted to solve the problems in Area 11 "fair and square". Maybe she wasn't always true to her own principles, but it's not like it was her favourite past-time to slaughter people for the heck of it. The moment their spirits were broken, she would have lost interest.

Actually, she had no problems shooting them down when they surrendered.

Maybe I overexaggerated a bit, but she did see Numbers as mere statistics.