2008-12-27, 22:43 | Link #181 | |
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Watch the last epis better. {Suzaku's talk to him, what Lulu said to C.C in #23} Nunally was more of an excuse. He had deep hatred for Britania and his fate was to destroy and re-create the world in one way or the other. This does not mean he did not love Nunally and did not want a peaceful world for her. But his true intention, is being described in the preview for the last episode. |
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2008-12-27, 22:52 | Link #182 | |
A l i c e
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Nov 2008
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2008-12-27, 23:11 | Link #183 | ||
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
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True, she never showed. But never showed does not equalize to it never happened. It's also true that Nina shouldn't be forgiven just like that. But then again, whoever said that she was forgiven? When you think it over, it's just about opinion you're arguing here. Nogitsune thinks that Nina can be forgiven. You think not. Simple as that. As for the grey philosophy we're all talking about, it's actually not about "When you're grey, you should be forgiven". That is an opinion, and if you say that it's unfair, then I am truly sorry. This world is never fair. If you're talking about the philosophy itself, the anime is grey because it portrays Lelouch, a character who would do almost everything to give what's best to his sister. He killed, but he also saved. He saved, but he also killed. So why is it that the Japanese like him, and Britannians are pissed? Because the Japanese are striving for their own happiness, for what's good for them. When it comes to Code Geass, being the weak(Japanese) doesn't imply that you're "white", and being strong(Britannian) doesn't imply you're "black". They're all grey because they react and act based on what they believe in. They don't base their actions on moral beliefs. Take for instance: the Britannians think that they are superior over the Japanese, and thus treats them like slaves, and in an inhuman way. Why? Because they took over their country. However, if Britannians were only tourists in Japan, do you think that the Japanese would receive the very same treatment?
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2008-12-28, 08:07 | Link #185 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2008
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As for the thing about Britannia tourist Most likely the tourist would take over Japan and start massacring them. I mean its Britannia What the hell does that have anything to do with it? I don't give a free pass because someone's loved one died. |
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2008-12-28, 08:54 | Link #186 | |
All Hail Lelouch!
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: In His Majesties Service.
Age: 40
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I'm a seeing is believing person and until i see Lelouch actually do any of that stuff i'm not buying it. The same holds true for Nina until i see that she actually has changed, she doesn't deserve a free pass(or any type of pass for that matter). I mean for gods sake people seem to believe she deserves a free pass because she regrets what she did. By that logic Lelouch should get one too since he didn't manage to kill even 10% of those that she did and he clearly regretted alot of the things he did as illustrated by his live suicide show. Really the end of CG, while both sad and entertaining, seems like of some horribly idyllic fantasy world compared to the rest of the show. Lelouch and Suzaku end up taking the rap and everyone else(not just Nina) gets a free pass. Its just so ridiculous. Everyone else gets some type of happy ending even though alot of them have done some type of horrible thing at one time or another or are just incompetent(looks at Ogi). |
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2008-12-28, 09:42 | Link #187 | |||||||||||||||||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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I mentioned that it matters to me how likely it is that a change will be permanent. For example, I think the chances that Nina will build another Fleya are incredibly slim and will stay the same even if you go ahead and punish her. The same goes for most characters in Code Geass... I don't see C.C. creating a second Mao any time soon. However, in real life there are very few people who change that thoroughly. And that's the main difference for me. Quote:
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Just because? Quote:
To me it's enough if someone truly wants to make up for his past mistakes and/or vows to himself that he will never repeat them. Quote:
To me, that sounds too much like Suzaku... I adore him, but constantly seeking punishment didn't make him a better person. Quote:
In the end of the first season, when C.C. reflects on everything that has happened, she talks about how she believes that every human being lives to chase happiness, and mentions Lelouch in this contxt. She also says something along the lines of: "Crimes and punishment, fate and judgment. What is obstructing us is the past we created. It is the hate between people." She muses about if this hatred is part of human nature and mentions that it is simply people's fate to judge others. I always saw that as a very large part of the philosophy of Code Geass, no matter how one understands it. Quote:
I agree that something like that wouldn't work in real life, though - simply because you can't look into people's minds. Quote:
But to me, it became fairly clear that Nina has "learned her lesson" in the anime. The same goes for Lelouch. Quote:
Because I can very well see some of the families slowly torturing her to death. Quote:
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Of course not everyone will change over night. But as long as Viletta doesn't go around killing little kittens, I have no problem with her getting away unpunished. Then again, I'm usually not very judgmental when it comes to anime characters. Quote:
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2008-12-28, 09:44 | Link #188 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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being incompetent isnt actually a crime in itself
but since ougi was in a position of power (and is now in an even bigger one) then it might count even more so when you remember that the reason he was left in power was that he led a mutany against the last leader (who was far from incompetent)
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2008-12-28, 10:19 | Link #189 | |
All Hail Lelouch!
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: In His Majesties Service.
Age: 40
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Don't get me wrong i'm not saying he deserves a bad end, he just doesn't deserve the fabulous end he gets for simply being a nice guy. |
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2008-12-28, 10:44 | Link #190 | |||
yare yare..
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth (:
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If you want to see to it that she has changed in the anime, I'd like to see to it too, that she was actually given the free pass because she felt bad in the anime. Quote:
But before they did, they did not called the Japanese Elevens. Quote:
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2008-12-28, 13:58 | Link #191 | |
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And about Suzaku, his moment in 18, showed he strive for atonement. True, this does not make someone better but still, he held a moral ground, acknowledging that at times, yes, you have to be punished. At least this shows that there might be a small sign of justice, some small measure of hope for the possibility of meaning. As for the rest of your reply, i am not gonna bother to reply. It seems to me, you think that discipline and punishment is an illusion cause apparently people that "change" and "regret" their actions, need a free pass. Sure. |
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2008-12-28, 14:10 | Link #192 | |||||||||||||||
No Eyes
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dirac Sea
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Viletta striving for happiness is a moot point if it is an attempt to cover the fact that she was a schemer who very much so, did not deserve what she was given. People who step over others for their own happiness, especially innocent people (see: Shirley), do not deserve what she was given. Quote:
Who are you to say who has or has not learned a lesson? If a criminal commits a crime who are you to judge on such an impractical, opinionated, unfair basis as "I think they learned their lesson"? If you are going to give one Genocidal maniac the free pass for "having learned their lesson" you may as well give every Genocidal maniac the same treatment because if you imply this kind of law system, everyone will claim to have learned their lesson... and then piss on your shoes. Quote:
Point of the matter here is not a conflict of opinion, it is a conflict of realistic expectations and an understanding of justice. Nogitsune is spitting on the idea of fair justice because giving people "a free pass" is not fair judgement nor justice it is partial, it is based on ones opinions and perceptions. This is not fair, simple. There are reasons why one person is not allowed to judge the fate of another in a civilized court of law that isn't run by a dictator. You cannot let opinions sway matters on justice, this is a case of justice. Nina commited a crime, and she needs to be judged by an impartial system not someone's opinion on life's lessons. Quote:
Lelouch is a poor example for your point, a very poor example, because he was seeking his judgement. He was not hiding behind any veils of "I learned" he was ready to accept his punishment and welcomed it at the end. Where does Nina do this? I only remember her crying over the deaths of Britannians. Quote:
Your example of tourism vs. a war occupied zone is terrible. It shows nothing. The Birtannians attacked Japan and conquered it. They were the tourists, and then they took over the country. You can't just apply completely seperate scenarios and say "these people are grey because in this COMPLETELY DIFFERENT scenerio they would act differently." No wayyy! You don't say! Quote:
This isn't about seeking punishment and having a martyr complex, ala Suzaku, this about being judged fairly and recieving the punishment one is deserving. Nina does not have to be Suzaku, but she deserves to be put in court for her actions and judged accordingly. Nothing like Suzaku. Quote:
Where is Viletta's punishment for ruining Shirley's life? For lying? For conspiring against someone who meant good for the world all for her own self-satisfaction? What was her punishment? Getting pregnant? Quote:
And how can you see into Nina's mind? Are you Mao? Do you have a mind reading Geass? Quote:
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2008-12-28, 15:21 | Link #193 | |
~Hi -mi- tsu des~
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Canada
Age: 39
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2008-12-28, 15:31 | Link #194 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2008
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I have made known how much I hate how badly written the last episode of Code Geass is, Okouchi set it up from Lelouch's side, but then never sets it up from the Britannian side. Sure Okouchi can claim that if we saw Code Geass from the Britannian side that maybe the Britannians don't look so bad and Lelouch looks evil, but considering how Britannian are clearly the villains, and how anytime more than 10 seconds is spent on a Britannian than unless your a KoR you are going to Kick the Dog I don't see how. He basically ignores what happened the previous 49 episodes like how Nunnaly, and Schneizel blew up Pendragon, and Schneizel helped blow up Tokyo, and how Britannians are facist, so its kind of hard to take anything Okouchi says about philosophy as serious. If his trying to tell us that humans strive for happiness, what he actually gets across is that the strive for happiness will only cause great harm for most people, as only the chosen few such as Ougi ever receive happiness. Last edited by Charred Knight; 2008-12-28 at 15:47. |
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2008-12-28, 15:52 | Link #195 | ||
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He wanted a peaceful world, for the people he really loved and cared. His sister, his Zero-buddy, Kallen and C.C Those were the people Lelouch really cared for in the end. {and we might as well count those that were loyal to him in his final moments as well} He could not give a crap about anyone else but his atonement just had to include everyone's sins otherwise it would not work. Technically speaking, he died like Jesus-style. Realistically, he had to die like this in order to ensure a future for his loved ones. And if we want to play ball on the moral-ground, yes, Lelouch did deserve to die in the end for all the atrocities he commited. A lot of them came from special circumstances but this can't be used as justification. At least, he acknowledged all his shit and found a way to work it out for him and his closed people. But you can't help but be kinda annoyed in the end, when people that did nuthing-as-in-crap-ruining-lifes-around, get the smile-cheese end. But oh well, long live Lulu i guess. |
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2008-12-28, 16:33 | Link #196 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Lol, sort of reminds me of the Futurama episode where Bender is all "YAY CLOSURE!" after finally getting nailed for his cigar theft at the very end, only without the "closure" part. |
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2008-12-28, 17:06 | Link #197 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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Do people always pay for what they've done in real life? Absolutely not.
Life isn't fair, so from that point of view I don't have a problem with some characters getting better endings than what they deserve. Lelouch wanted a better tomorrow for everyone, including but not limited to those who deserve it. I think that's not a huge leap of logic. Both Tokyo and the Britannian capital were essentially wiped off the face of the Earth, the world's powers are exhausted from the recent wars. I think that's, if anything, the only environment in which things could reasonably begin to improve. The world might not be perfect, but at least it's on the path to a period of reconciliation. The audience may dislike Ougi, but he is essentially a figurehead for the Black Knights, who are very popular in Japan and thus it's not unrealistic for him to be elected as PM with such a great vehicle to gather support. He doesn't need to be a genius to accomplish that much nor prove especially capable. Think about incompetent or even corrupt real life politicians if you want. In the case of Nina, the people who know of her research should be few, and those who know that she was actively urging the weapon's use should be even fewer. I don't think the Ashford crew, in particular, knows that much and would in any case still be willing to protect her as a friend. |
2008-12-28, 17:09 | Link #198 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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...Never doubt the system. Quote:
It was even officially stated that it was mainly a matter of pride for him, and I really don't see what a punishment that is self-inflicted and can be considered a "happy ending" for the person in question has to do with justice. Quote:
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However, you make it sound like everything I say has been proven false centuries ago. Quote:
I just don't see the logic in that. Not to mention that it would be fun to send Nina to court. As someone pointed out to me, she only developed Fleya, and inventing something - however dangerous - wouldn't even be a crime in real life. Quote:
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Everything else I could say to this would be nothing more than repeating myself. Quote:
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I think that says it all. Quote:
But if you let someone who has truly changed go some time after he commited the crime and don't give people the impression that this wasn't a very rare occurence, it wouldn't kill anyone. Quote:
Since when are scientists executed for inventing something? Not to mention that there is a difference between a quick, clean and a slow, painful death. Quote:
But we'll never know. Quote:
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But yes, his loved ones - including his friends at Ashford and those who had already died - were probably his main motivation. Quote:
So yes, it was matter of pride(/atonement), but also something he wanted to do for the people in general. However, I'm not saying he was selfless - quite the opposite, in fact. And if it hadn't been for his loved ones, he probably wouldn't have given the fate of the world much thought. Nunally was always his main motivation and shaped his own believes. So did some other people. Quote:
But... we're really not getting anywhere here. Quote:
I just don't get why someone "deserves" something bad if it won't help anyone. Quote:
Still, the end would have been perfectly fine with me if Ougi and the others had at least known that they did something wrong by betraying Lelouch. Quote:
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2008-12-28, 17:29 | Link #199 | ||||||||||||||
No Eyes
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dirac Sea
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Nina... not so much. Quote:
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... Oh and she was trying to use it. And she was going to... She may not have pulled the trigger, but she coarsed it. I am pretty sure any family would actually just want her shot. Quote:
I'm going to stop here, a lot of circles are forming. |
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2008-12-28, 18:59 | Link #200 | ||||||||||||||
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 33
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And I'd say Lelouch got his personal happy ending. Not perfect, but happy. The ones who really suffered because of Zero Requiem were his loved ones (like Nunally), not him. The life Lelouch lead was much more of a "punishment" for him than his death. Quote:
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If you want to punish Nina, you would probably have to go against the law. Quote:
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Just difficult to punish her by legal means. Quote:
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In real life? Impossibe. But that's what I said. Quote:
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