Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

The reason of the Annexion was all about military reasons at the end because with the loss of the Krim Russia would have lost a military strategic region of the Black Sea Marine fleet.

Economic actually. Viktor Yanukovych president of Ukraine was playing both sides of the pro-EU and pro-Russia. After years of negotiation he balked at signing the Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement. Which got a lot of people mad as to them having economic ties to the EU was the better deal than with Russia.

To Putin Ukraine has always been in Russia's sphere of influence. He didn't like those who kicked Yanukovych out of his presidency and took power there.

His annexation of Crimea has costed Russia in sanctions when at the time oil prices dipped.

[magnuskn]

Since the Black Sea Fleet of Russia is located in Crimea (yes, even when Crimea was part of the Ukraine), of course the region was of military importance to Russia.

[Mistyclear]

^ wasn't this discussion thread supposed to be about NUNS/ Windermerians.

[Darthtabby]

Well, I'm back from travelling.

I haven't read all the posts I've missed, but I'd like to make an observation based on some of the posts I have read (before my trip as well as after). I'm actually not sure that there is/was as much of a gulf between some of the posters in this thread as some of you think. It seems to me that people have ended up being appalled by other's opinions due in part to poor communication. Some of this is due to arguments being poorly constructed/articulated. Some of it is also due to people interpreting arguments made by others in a way that is more general/literal than the person who made the argument intended.

As for actual contributions to the discussion, I figure at this point I may as well wait and see what happens in Episode 14 before I chime in.

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

Well, I'm back from travelling.

Welcome back~.

[Thess]

I wasn't sure where to drop this little info courtesy of the Kuroki Tsubasa No Shiro Kishi manga, but I thought I'll share it to rectify some misinformation about the Aerial Knights that I've seen in the past. Namely the one that think they are nobles now we have information that implies is the opposite. It seems that's rare for a noble or royalty to join the Aerial Knights. Bogue, who is a noble, and Keith, royalty, were either given the "go home" speech or asked why would someone who is a noble join the school. So that's implied that is composed mostly by commoners: either farmers (like Cassim) or merchants (like the twins) or whatever else you think. Not nobility minus notable exceptions (Keith and Bogue, that we know).

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Thess

I wasn't sure where to drop this little info courtesy of the Kuroki Tsubasa No Shiro Kishi manga, but I thought I'll share it to rectify some misinformation about the Aerial Knights that I've seen in the past. Namely the one that think they are nobles now we have information that implies is the opposite. It seems that's rare for a noble or royalty to join the Aerial Knights. Bogue, who is a noble, and Keith, royalty, were either given the "go home" speech or asked why would someone who is a noble join the school. So that's implied that is composed mostly by commoners: either farmers (like Cassim) or merchants (like the twins) or whatever else you think. Not nobility minus notable exceptions (Keith and Bogue, that we know).

What about Hermann's social status?

[Annorax]

Wild Guessing. hayate's dad dimension-bombed Windamere, but without authorization. The guy saved by Delta and many in NUN were shocked by what he did. But daddy did it because he had to stop a (InsertProtocultureCreation)/Protodevlin/Birdman-related stuff. Which we now know as Mikumo, when she finally regain all her memebory she will fight Delta/Everybody

[Annorax]

Keith is a royalty and Bogue is the oldest son that maybe will inherit his daddy's riches though.

[Thess]

It's too soon to claim that Hayate's father bombed anyone. He'll have some kind of mystery related to Windermere.

I guess it could go either way: secret hero or villain. "My father is a villain" isn't that uncommon twist for mecha pilots. That would make him grow closer to Mirage too (if he's being treated as carrying some 'family legacy' even if it's unpleasant one) for the triangle.

[Saint X]

My current theories for the "footage":

- Wholesale real / It actually happened as it was.
- Partially real / Something did explode, they just dramatized it.
- A Broken Arrow incident turned into NUCFLASH, with a possible Empty Quiver side scenario.
- Self-bombing.

[charles883]

Im glad and commented that EVEN Aerial Knight ADMIT that what they did in war is very wrong, cowardly and downright dirty by using Vars and not very righteous . That shows that Windermere and Aerial Knight ARE NOT Self righteous delusional hypocrite

[Thess]

Originally Posted by charles883

Im glad and commented that EVEN Aerial Knight ADMIT that what they did in war is very wrong, cowardly and downright dirty by using Vars and not very righteous . That shows that Windermere and Aerial Knight ARE NOT Self righteous delusional hypocrite

Hermann has always been a sensible guy (he's also a staff favorite, iirc). You could see it in episode 8 where he agreed with Freyja's point. He doesn't have any power to stop anything, though. He's keeping his team alive following the "A Father to his Men" troupe. Him and Cassim had always been my favorites out the team, but unfortunately, they are so marked to die because neither is a profitable bishounen.

I do think the episode showed a difference between the young, impressionable dumb teenagers (Bogue and the twins), and the older veterans (Cassim and Hermann were pretty against the turn of events) with Keith neutral (but not too happy). Unfortunately it does confirm we have stereotypical looking villains: Middle Eastern Evil Guy who Profits with Weapons, NUNS Shifty Higher Up and his Shady Faction, Ominous Glasses Silverhaired Scientist. While everyone in between aside of Chaos are dumbly following them until they are enlightened by Walkure's songs (Windermere and the other NUNS guys).

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Annorax

Wild Guessing. hayate's dad dimension-bombed Windamere, but without authorization. The guy saved by Delta and many in NUN were shocked by what he did. But daddy did it because he had to stop a (InsertProtocultureCreation)/Protodevlin/Birdman-related stuff. Which we now know as Mikumo, when she finally regain all her memebory she will fight Delta/Everybody

If Mikumo was in Windermere 7 years ago, some people involved in the war back then would know about it and would be looking for her right now. Since none of that has happened, I think it's unlikely she was there back then.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by charles883

Im glad and commented that EVEN Aerial Knight ADMIT that what they did in war is very wrong, cowardly and downright dirty by using Vars and not very righteous . That shows that Windermere and Aerial Knight ARE NOT Self righteous delusional hypocrite

They follow their orders anyway. And will be tried for warcrimes just the same at the end. And since most are near the end of their lives they are free to pass on the mess to the next generation, who would have to bear the costs and hatreds for what they themselves had nothing to do with.

Just because you admit your wrongs don't change the fact that they are still carrying them out. If I feel bad about putting poisons into civilian apples, but still put the poisons into them anyway, I am still guilty.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Well Roid is obsessed with Windermereans being the inheritors of the Protoculture not the Terrans and other races that he wants to conquer the galaxy creating a slave empire like the one Protoculture had with the Zentradi.

Looks like he isn't privy to or does not acknowledge what Terrans have learned of the Protoculture. They were a foolish race that destroyed themselves through war. They were afraid that their seeded races would follow their footsteps. That they hope their descendants would come together through love thus a proof of peace that they desired.

These were from the Zentradi's own records, declassified events of Macross Zero and what happened on Rax. As for the latter NUNS still keeps the Varauta campaign classified as per Macross FB7. All the galaxy knows Fire Bomber beat the Protodevlin. However as per Macross Frontier it is popular belief that the Protoculture created the seeded races out of hope for peace.

[pinoy78]

NUNS is long overdue to push Windemere's tshi in.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Just because you admit your wrongs don't change the fact that they are still carrying them out. If I feel bad about putting poisons into civilian apples, but still put the poisons into them anyway, I am still guilty.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Under Windermerian martial code most certainly disobeying orders is also a crime.

Take as a comparison the U.S. military code. A soldier willfully disobeying an order is considered a criminal, and under article 90 doing so during a war is punishable by death.


However there's the caveat: "only if the order is lawful".

So a soldier not only shouldn't obey an "unlawful" order, he might actually be tried fro crime of war if he does.

This puts the soldier in the "nice" situation of having to judge on the fly whether the order he has just received is lawful or not, and willing to take a guess as to what the military trial will end up judging it, which it's really not that black and white and often beyond the intellect and knowledge of your average soldier.


But let's go back to Windermere. They probably don't even abide to the Geneva convention and I'm not even sure if they know what it is. Most likely feeding civilians apples and water does not constitute an unlawful act under their law.


So basically this leaves Herman with the choice of doing something that he consider morally wrong or disobeying an order which is something he probably consider even more morally wrong and at the same time an act of treason and a crime punishable with death.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But let's go back to Windermere. They probably don't even abide to the Geneva convention and I'm not even sure if they know what it is. Most likely feeding civilians apples and water does not constitute an unlawful act under their law.

Then you just condemned the entire Windermere civilization, in an attempt to defend one of its citizens. You are stating that it is not wrong to give poisoned food and water to innocent people. If that is truly what Windermere laws believe, then it should all be burned to the ground.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Then you just condemned the entire Windermere civilization, in an attempt to defend one of its citizens. You are stating that it is not wrong to give poisoned food and water to innocent people. If that is truly what Windermere laws believe, then it should all be burned to the ground.

What about radiation poisoning? The Geneva convention forbids flamethrowers but doesn't forbid nuclear weapons.

Not only in several countries nuking an enemy's highly populated city isn't considered "illegal", but a soldier is expected to press the button without fail should the order arrive.

Do those countries also deserve to be "burned to the ground"?