(CR) Angolmois: Genkou Kassenki

[The 48th Ronin]

I'm really interested on how will the Koreans and Chinese be depicted in this show. That might become a point of controversy.

[Ghostfriendly]

Originally Posted by The 48th Ronin

I'm really interested on how will the Koreans and Chinese be depicted in this show. That might become a point of controversy.

Hmm, if the series is sophisticated enough to differentiate between Koreans, Chinese and Mongols, it's probably sophisticated enough to portray them sensibly. Unlike the British and Roman Empires I can't think of anything much the Mongols did for the world apart from beheading people and skinning them alive in great numbers, so it won't be unreasonable if they're pretty villainous. 'Sword of the Stranger', to mention that again, had a fairly sensible presentation of the Chinese villains, in Rurouni Kenshin the Chinese gangsters were competent, but looked pretty stereotyped. I can remember some other anime, including Samurai Champloo, that showed Chinese martial arts roundly defeating Japanese fighters due to their far longer history; the enemy in this series using a Japanese style is a bit of a shame.

[serenade_beta]

Originally Posted by The 48th Ronin

I'm really interested on how will the Koreans and Chinese be depicted in this show. That might become a point of controversy.

Will any even appear aside from the Mongols (who are Chinese, technically? Not sure)? All I know is that they are the bad guys and have the ability to superjump on to tiny boats.

[SeijiSensei]

Never thought of the Mongols as a naval power.

The faux-parchment filter overlaid on the image is really annoying. Nakamura Kenji used this technique way back in "Bake Neko" and Mononoke. If this was intended as an homage, and I were Nakamura, I'd be offended. I didn't like the part on the boat with the streaks across the image either. All that motion was way too distracting.

Everything else is workmanlike enough to hang in for a while, but these visual "effects" may drive me away.

[LG-MAX 2.o]

Originally Posted by The 48th Ronin

I'm really interested on how will the Koreans and Chinese be depicted in this show. That might become a point of controversy.

Luckily there were several Russians and people from Eastern Europe in the Mongol empire during this period, it is safer to kill these characters than to risk creating polemic by putting Koreans or Chinese in the story, or they can be killed without you ever knowing who is who, how made in souten no ken.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Never thought of the Mongols as a naval power.

They weren't, at least, not inherently. But what's often overlooked about the Mongols, as they rampaged across the world, is that they were surprisingly adaptable. They co-opted Chinese expertise in siege warfare, for example, as they began to attack fortified cities in China and elsewhere. In the case of their attempted invasion of Japan, the Mongols co-opted Korean naval expertise and resources. Their first attempted landings did, in fact, succeed, and Japanese forces in Kyushu had to drive off the initial waves.

It was the second and much bigger expedition — if I remember correctly — that was driven away by storms and high seas, giving rise to the "kamikaze" myth in Japan.

The Kamakura shogunate had, by this time, long fallen under the control of the Hojo regency, and it's recorded that the regent was forced to mobilise substantial amounts of national resources to prepare for the invasion. This marked the beginning of the end for the Hojo.

Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly

Unlike the British and Roman Empires I can't think of anything much the Mongols did for the world apart from beheading people and skinning them alive in great numbers.

That's not strictly true. That's the way history remembers the Mongols, but it really should be noted that warfare is always ugly, and mediaeval armies elswhere don't really behave that much better. In "Christian" Europe, for example, it was common for lords to mobilise forces for summer raids on rival domains. Looting and pillaging were very much the norm, and it wouldn't be a stretch to imagine that rape and random murder were commonplace as well.

More to the point, once the Mongols settled down to rule their newly conquered realms, most of them adapted to, or even outright adopted, local customs and traditions. In China, for example, Kublai Khan, grandson of Genghis Khan, laid the foundation for the Yuan Dynasty, which was known for its openness to foreign trade and religions. In India, the descendents of the Mongols became the Mughal emperors, who established a Muslim "golden age" of sorts in the subcontinent.

[Haak]

That was a decent first episode. The characterisation of that princess girl was a little overwrought but I did like the other characters. Some of the choreography was a bit out of place given the setting though. The MC doing a jump attack on a wildly rocking boat in the middle of a storm, the other criminals just standing there whilst the MC fights the enemies (could've made sense but they didn't try to), and then there's blondie jumping on that boat at the end.

My knowledge of the Mongels only stretches as far as Genghis Khan's lifetime so I don't really know anything about this particular battle front (which I presumed happened under his successor). I hope its at least roughly historically accurate to be educational.

[LG-MAX 2.o]

I can remember some other anime, including Samurai Champloo, that showed Chinese martial arts roundly defeating Japanese fighters due to their far longer history; the enemy in this series using a Japanese style is a bit of a shame.

Did this refer to the fighter who was capable of causing internal damage to the opponent's body? I always thought that this fighting trait had been made exaggerated though.

Well, historically speaking, the first major confrontation between solely samurai vs. Korean and Chinese was during the Japanese Invasion in the Korea, where China sent more than 30,000 soldiers to help, but with the exception of the sea battles, the land battles were overwhelming majority by the samurai, but it is important to say that the Japan was still in the Sengoku period, that is, it was a nation that was killing itself in an internal war more than 100 years, the Japanese had gained much experience of struggle in that period.

A pity this event history will never turn anime, I think there is not even a manga that deals with that.

Well, something that I consider obligatory to be shown, are the mongols at least using powder as a weapon.

[Ghostfriendly]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Their first attempted landings did, in fact, succeed, and Japanese forces in Kyushu had to drive off the initial waves.

It was the second and much bigger expedition — if I remember correctly — that was driven away by storms and high seas, giving rise to the "kamikaze" myth in Japan.

I think both invasions were badly damaged by storms, the first invasion did do much better, but the Japanese were more well prepared for the second.

More to the point, once the Mongols settled down to rule their newly conquered realms, most of them adapted to, or even outright adopted, local customs and traditions. In China, for example, Kublai Khan, grandson of Genghis Khan, laid the foundation for the Yuan Dynasty, which was known for its openness to foreign trade and religions. In India, the descendents of the Mongols became the Mughal emperors, who established a Muslim "golden age" of sorts in the subcontinent.

I'm aware that Medieval Europeans, Romans and Imperial Britain massacred a lot of people, but I don't think it was as many as the Mongols or as frequently. The Romans built aqueducts, the British built railways, the Mongols completely destroyed the Khwaresmian Empire, including the irrigation system, wiped out whole cities, killed the Muslim Caliph, and supposedly caused psychological and economic damage the Middle East hasn't even recovered from today. The Mughals and Yuan are a somewhat positive legacy, but, as you mentioned, that came some time after the Mongols had learnt from other civilisations. I'm mainly influenced in my statements by an alternative history essay by the novelist Cecelia Holland, speculating that if the Mongols had successfully invaded Europe and treated it as they treated Asia, we would have no Renaissance, no Industrial or Scientific Revolution and no Reformation aimed at the Catholic church if the Pope had been trampled to death in a sack.

[Applehell]

Huh, I wasn't expecting that e get another period piece about another rarely done setting in Japanese history. I think both the leads are pretty good granted like Haak Teruhi's shrinking violetness is a bit overplayed. I don't feel like many of other standout all the much yet. Will see if that changes later on since it's still early/

Originally Posted by Nivek von Beldo

The chapter was very good, better that expected with a realism(except blue eyes blond ninja mongol jump) and the raining effect in the sea was nice, have potential hope they don't wasted it.

About the ninja, someone another forum had some fascinating info on this:

Not sure about the blond faux ninja, but the Yuan Dynasty (the Mongol realm in China)was a time when Central Asians and Eastern Europeans not only served in large numbers, but in public and prominent roles.

Of course, the Yuan would have less of them, since the Mongol Empire by this time was effectively divided. The Yuan khan was supposed to be overall ruler, but their power was basically limited to the Asian part of Russia and whats today Xinjiang.

The Yuan classed them as Semuren, literally Colored Eye People, and were a caste above the native Han Chinese the Yuan ruled over, whom the Mongols further divided.

A blond officer serving in a Yuan arny is not out of place. Him somehow knowing a Japanese fighting style is. But Chinese and Korean productions suffer from the same provincinal issues, so its not uncommon for East Asia.

Also of note. The two invasion fleets were manned and built by Korean and Chinese shipwrights and sailors, since the Mongols lacked a naval tradition. The Korean vassal king was also noted to be enthusiastic about the Yuan pacifying Japan and bringing it into the Mongol fold.

So yeah, this actually isn't all that crazy at all.

[Nivek von Beldo]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Huh, I wasn't expecting that e get another period piece about another rarely done setting in Japanese history. I think both the leads are pretty good granted like Haak Teruhi's shrinking violetness is a bit overplayed. I don't feel like many of other standout all the much yet. Will see if that changes later on since it's still early/



About the ninja, someone another forum had some fascinating info on this:



So yeah, this actually isn't all that crazy at all.

At least is historical correct..still the ninja jump.was So dissonant with the rest of the chapter realism but Nice learning more of history here.

[wuhugm]

My screen can't be this dirty

And yeah, the last jump was idiotic

[Nivek von Beldo]

The Battle was amazing, animation, style and yeah we saw the mongols...but the mongols used the captured civilians alive as human shields not as a obstacle.

The Seduction attempt of the princess was so funny(still expecting that happen).

This will be a brutal war...and seven day wait will be eternal.

[Kanon]

The battle has already started, and the lord of the island is already dead. His son was also killed, so I guess his adopted son who seems like a dick will take the lead. I don't remember seeing him die.

I have no clue how they're going to be able to hold out for seven days given how overwhelming the enemies' numbers seem to be. They have better weaponry and strategy too, although Kuchii should be good enough to outsmart them. We've seen him analyze the enemy and he did a good job.

[Haak]

I loled hard when the MC just ragdolled down that slope after he got thrown out of the strat meet.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Haak

I loled hard when the MC just ragdolled down that slope after he got thrown out of the strat meet.

Can't wait to see that on blu-ray.

[The 48th Ronin]

Originally Posted by Haak

I loled hard when the MC just ragdolled down that slope after he got thrown out of the strat meet.

Tranquilooo...

[serenade_beta]

That trusty Gunpowder(?)

[TinyRedLeaf]

I knocked together a few tidbits from Wikipedia for quick and easy reference:

Tsushima's rulers
It's a bit complicated:

- Up until the middle of the 13th century, Tsushima was ruled by the Abiru clan. Abiru Yajiro, the adopted son introduced at Ep2, 03:50, was from this clan.

- At the time of the Mongol invasions, Tsushima was officially ruled by the Shouni clan. The Shouni claimed descent from the Fujiwara, the most prestigious of Japan's aristocratic families. The Fujiwara were closely related to the Imperial family, due to a series of arranged marriages.

- But the high-ranking members of the Shouni who "ruled" Tsushima were actually based in Kyushu, as was the case with Shouni Kagesuke (Ep2, 08:36). It was their retainers, the Sou clan, who were the de facto administrators of the island. Sou Sukekuni, the aged chieftan who died in this episode, was of this clan. The emblem, or mon, of the Sou clan, was pictured in the opening seconds of the first episode.

- As Sou Sukekuni said, the Sou were indeed descended from the Taira (which explains why he was able to present the armour of Taira Tomomori to Kuchii at 17:52). The Taira were one of the two major clans that fought the Gempei War in the late 12th century. They eventually lost to the Minamoto clan, who went on to establish the Kamakura Shogunate. Both the Taira and Minamoto descended from the Fujiwara.

- The Taira were mainly based in Western Japan, while the Minamoto were mainly based in the east, hence Princess Teruhi's derogatory opinion of Kuchii as an "eastern barbarian" at Ep2, 11:48. Even as far back as the 13th century, there was already a socio-cultural divide between east and west, with Eastern Japan regarded as wild backcountry, in contrast to the sophisticated capital of Kyoto, and the commercial centres of the west.

- It's said, though, that the Minamoto were the better warriors, and Minamoto Yoshitsune (whose supposed "blade" was presented to Kuchii at 09:30) was the most famous warrior among them. Yoshitsune is the subject of countless popular stories, including in manga and anime, and he's especially remembered for defeating Benkei, the warrior monk, who then became his retainer.

- The Minamoto were the first Shoguns to become de facto rulers of the nation. So, by tradition, all future Shoguns had to be able to trace their lineage to the Minamoto. The Hojo family were not related to the Minamoto, so they took a leaf from the Fujiwara playbook, and seized control as regents to the Shogun, through another series of political marriages. As I mentioned earlier, the Hojo were the true power behind the "throne" at this point in Japan's history.


Tsushima's economy and fauna

- Tsushima does not appear to have enough arable land to sustain large-scale agriculture. The population survived and prospered mainly on fishing and maritime commerce between Korea and Japan.

- Just as Iriomote island in the Okinawa/Ryukyu archipelago has the Iriomote cat, Tsushima has its own native species of wildcat, known as the Tsushima Leopard Cat. If you watch closely in Ep2, you'd notice it at 12:47 and 15:40. It's also in the OP.

[Kanon]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting this. No clue if this series is going to delve into politics or not, but it's nice to have more context and background