(L) Eureka Seven: Astral Ocean

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It's not about time though. Lack of character depth comes mostly from a lack of character interaction I think.

AO on the other hand deals with the characters mostly as individual entities. That's why they feel kinda flat even though there is some development here and there.

Well, to be fair, characters are individual entities but that's selling short the fact that there are webs of alliances and allegiances, and that the characters are cogs in the machine. I don't particularly find any of the main cast flat either (Truth I'm sketchy on but his character is falling more and more into place for me with each passing episode): they have motivations, vices and virtues, they have growing bonds and disappearing ones, they have histories. Characters that have reasons to interact and grow together do (Fleur and Ao as the prime examples as they grow from distant strangers to close friends, Elena too as little bits of her character fall into place), and characters that have reasons to continue to drift apart continue to do so (Fleur and her dad, Ao and Pied Piper vs. Gen Blue). Now, not all of the cast is graced with this but not all of the cast needs it either, some characters are simply secondaries to whom giving overly deep focus would simply be a waste of time but they at least still have all the basic requirements to be decent to good secondaries and are consistent (for the most part).

I don't like all the characters (I really have no liking of Naru left in me at this point but that could change) and I don't think all of them have been handled all that well (again, the choices made with Naru and the conclusions I've drawn may or may not be intended) but on the by and large, I don't think its been that bad.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

What do you remember about E7 the most? The relationship between Renton and Eureka. But not only that, there's also the relationship between Renton and Holland and the rest of the Gekkostate gang. There's also Holland and Talho, and Anemone and Dominic too. Whenever you think about E7, you think about people interaction with one another, forming significant bonds of any kind. This is why the characters in E7 are so compelling.

I may be an oddball, but what I remember when asked on the spot from E7 is/was (since I've recently been refreshing my memory) Ray and Charles, and, by virtue of being the main characters, Eureka and Renton. I can hardly remember much of anything having to do with Gekkostate.

Take my opinion for what its worth though because out of BONES' works, Xam'd (though I'm still a bit puzzled by the overly happy ending) is my odd favorite along with Scrapped. I liked E7 and the Ray and Charles arc left a big impression on me, but I remember more of the former two shows than of the latter one.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Daniel Lind

Maybe because it's just your opinion?
Some people like multilayered stories rich with more believeable characters than loli smarter-than-their-age mecha pilots.
Truth and Naru with their inconsistent actions and terrible design already kick AO's sorry ass off any "good writing" position it might've achieved.
Sloppy writing? Lack of editing? You bet AO has all of them.

It would be like trying to convince people the prequel trilogy of Star Wars is better because it has like... action! And politics! Totally better!
Is there something I don't see? Is the plot really complex or are they just jerking off by spreading a relatively simple story over 10 hours in a way that makes it look like it's a mystery but in reality it's just witholding elements of the narrative from the viewer to extend the runtime? Are these characters really more humane than these in E7? I'm sorry, but I just don't see it!
And why is Eureka so irrelevant to anything in her own show? I guess Aikawa knows what he's doing though since it's a better series!

Considering as how you've been consistently peppering the board with virtually daily complaints and insulting anyone who disagrees with you pretty much since the series started, it's not that surprising that you don't see it.

Originally Posted by Vena

I may be an oddball, but what I remember when asked on the spot from E7 is/was (since I've recently been refreshing my memory) Ray and Charles, and, by virtue of being the main characters, Eureka and Renton. I can hardly remember much of anything having to do with Gekkostate..

I don't think that's remotely odd, since Ray and Charles and their arc were probably the emotional highlight of the entire series. That arc was fantastic, though it did make everything that came after it pale by comparison.

[Lota]

What I'm going to say might be weird, but...

Well, while I like the show so far and I'm definitely gonna keep watching I do have to agree that E7 really handled the characters better. While on the topic of characters, I also have to agree that the most memorable ones in E7 were Ray and Charles, Eureka and Renton, and, for some reason Anemone and Dominic (God, episode 48 ♥ ).

But recently I've been thinking about this... We all love this show, but... would it be able to stand on its own feet? Right now, we are hanging on every reference to E7, thinking about when the hell is Renton gonna show up, and waiting to find out what happened to Eureka and Renton in their world. But, I can't help but wonder, if AO was a separate series, if Eureka and Renton were new characters to this show, if we knew nothing about E7, would AO be just as interesting? Of course, thinking like this is pointless, because Ao is their their son, and this is a sequel (sort of), but I just can't help but wonder

[Daniel Lind]

Considering as how you've been consistently peppering the board with virtually daily complaints and insulting anyone who disagrees with you

Grasping for straws now aren't we.
I've done no such thing.
Even if I did you've addressed no legit complaints.
"It's better because I like it more!"
Yeah cool.

Screw it, I'm done.

[Haak]

Maybe he didn't respond because it's just your opinion?

[bigdeath]

Originally Posted by Daniel Lind

And why is Eureka so irrelevant to anything in her own show? I guess Aikawa knows what he's doing though since it's a better series!

I'd agree somewhat with Guardian Enzo opinion. I don't think AO is a better show than just a different kind of show. I think what really has angered a lot of fans is just that sentiment. They wanted Eureka 7 AO to basically be a continuation of the original so they could see more of their favorite characters. What we've gotten is largely a separate story that still ties in with the setting but thats not what some fans wanted or expected.

As for "Sloppy writing? Lack of editing? inconsistent actions and terrible design", one can make all the same complaints about the original series. I certainly know enough people that do just that.

Though I am curious what exact has been inconsistent in Truth and Naru? Naru protecting her home island makes total sense, why would she let a possible scub burst destroy her home if she had the firepower to stop it? As for Truth, his motives being a mystery makes it rather hard to say any of his actions are inconsistent.

And yes, I think not knowing were the show's story is going is a big part of why I love it. If I can constantly guess whats going to happen every episode it lessen the excitement I have for the show. And no, not every mystery needs to be loaded with foreshadowing like Madoka to be good.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I don't think that's remotely odd, since Ray and Charles and their arc were probably the emotional highlight of the entire series. That arc was fantastic, though it did make everything that came after it pale by comparison.

Actually, to be honest, I don't care that much about Ray and Charles. Call me crazy but what remember most about the show is Anemone and Dominic but I was certainly a big shipper of that couple. I greatly look forwarded to every episode The End showed up in because they were my favorites. Call me a shipper fanboy because its true.

And I hated Renton for being a whiny brat but at leasted he matured as the show went on. I much prefer AO who is surprisingly mature for his age but still shows the naivety of a kid.'

Originally Posted by Lota

But recently I've been thinking about this... We all love this show, but... would it be able to stand on its own feet? Right now, we are hanging on every reference to E7, thinking about when the hell is Renton gonna show up, and waiting to find out what happened to Eureka and Renton in their world. But, I can't help but wonder, if AO was a separate series, if Eureka and Renton were new characters to this show, if we knew nothing about E7, would AO be just as interesting? Of course, thinking like this is pointless, because Ao is their their son, and this is a sequel (sort of), but I just can't help but wonder

Well, this might be a real shocker but I couldn't care less if Renton shows up or not. And there doesn't seem to be that many references to the original series to be honest. I'm enjoying the show mostly as a separate story that yes, I find entertaining.

[Master Chibi]

I like E7 AO thus far but it's almost silly (and close to impossible) to not compare it to E7. We've had the Gekko State, Eureka, and Renton's name show up. Hell, even with its 50 episode length E7 dragged on at certain points but the thing is that they had two pieces to establish the story they were telling. Characters and an environment / mythos to work with.

At this point E7 AO has its own environment while 'borrowing' what E7 brought to the table but it really hasn't done anything with the characters. I fell in love with the innocence and wonder Renton had starting out and stuck around to see how he dealt with everything.

With where we're at with AO now it feels like AO's stuck in an episode of Unsolved Mysteries. It's cool, I'm interested to see where things are going but the entire cast of characters is completely interchangeable and expendable to be quite honest. They always seem to touch on them but they don't really manage to do anything with them.

'Grr I'm the evil army man'

'I'm Naru I'm special'

'Look at me I'm truth~'

Sure that's simplifying matters but I'm under the impression that whatever 'reveal' they're going for isn't going to pay off.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by bigdeath

I'd agree somewhat with Guardian Enzo opinion. I don't think AO is a better show than just a different kind of show. I think what really has angered a lot of fans is just that sentiment. They wanted Eureka 7 AO to basically be a continuation of the original so they could see more of their favorite characters. What we've gotten is largely a separate story that still ties in with the setting but thats not what some fans wanted or expected.

Uhm, isn't that the point?

The fact that this does feel so different from its roots... Isn't that what a large amount of the complaints been centered on? Some may be able to accept it, sure. But from my point of view, why even call it Eureka 7 if you are going for different sort of show? I had similar conversations with you in Rebuild so I'm sure we won't find common ground with you here either.

This is aside from the things that annoy people in this show like the all female pilots except Ao, or the complaints about the Truth in general. We spend an entire 50 episodes getting attached to a cast for which all intents and purposes in this show is nowhere to be seen. The frustrations are completely natural and understandable.

Originally Posted by bigdeath

And yes, I think not knowing were the show's story is going is a big part of why I love it. If I can constantly guess whats going to happen every episode it lessen the excitement I have for the show. And no, not every mystery needs to be loaded with foreshadowing like Madoka to be good.

Keeping the audience guessing is fine, but when the techniques used in doing so are questionable, that's where the problems start. I have to wonder how long you can have a character like the Truth constantly being in everybody's face about the truth of the world for half a show like this, and we still haven't been told what is going on. It's like the author going "haha look I have some big huge twist in front of you, but I am not going to reveal it until I want to!" It just becomes a little annoying to watch since so much time is wasted on teasing the audience.

[Master Chibi]

Let's make crazy theories now.

Truth = Renton.

HAHA AMAZING

[chuukoku]

Yay crazy theories! Throwing out mine here too. The distortion that Georg has sometimes, the voice behind it is secretly Renton /rolls over

[Master Chibi]

The Secrets are RENTON!!!!!!!!!!!

[Vena]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

The Secrets are RENTON!!!!!!!!!!!

That's... probably not impossible. He comes a line of engineers and creators, after all.

[MeisterBabylon]

Doesn't this make Eureka the Borg Queen?

[DragoonKain3]

Even after rewatching the last one like 4 times (hey, it's been like 2 weeks since the last epsiode ), I still can't make sense as to why it's that particular plant that Goldilocks is affiliated with that went AWOL. Is it because of Ao's weapon? But its not as if he fired it at the plant itself. Weird....

[morbosfist]

Given its area of effect, Ao's lucky he didn't erase the entire country with that weapon. He was over that airspace at the time.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Even after rewatching the last one like 4 times (hey, it's been like 2 weeks since the last epsiode ), I still can't make sense as to why it's that particular plant that Goldilocks is affiliated with that went AWOL. Is it because of Ao's weapon? But its not as if he fired it at the plant itself. Weird....

My assumption is that it's a localized effect, and that's where Ao was when he used the weapon. The other alternative is that the effect is so localized that it was Ao himself who was impacted - sent to another universe or timeline, perhaps - though that doesn't explain why everything except Goldilocks seems to be the same.

[Trajan]

Spoiler for consolidated quotes - space saving:

Originally Posted by Lota

What I'm going to say might be weird, but...

Well, while I like the show so far and I'm definitely gonna keep watching I do have to agree that E7 really handled the characters better. While on the topic of characters, I also have to agree that the most memorable ones in E7 were Ray and Charles, Eureka and Renton, and, for some reason Anemone and Dominic (God, episode 48 ♥ ).

Originally Posted by bigdeath

I'd agree somewhat with Guardian Enzo opinion. I don't think AO is a better show than just a different kind of show. I think what really has angered a lot of fans is just that sentiment. They wanted Eureka 7 AO to basically be a continuation of the original so they could see more of their favorite characters. What we've gotten is largely a separate story that still ties in with the setting but thats not what some fans wanted or expected.

...

And yes, I think not knowing were the show's story is going is a big part of why I love it. If I can constantly guess whats going to happen every episode it lessen the excitement I have for the show. And no, not every mystery needs to be loaded with foreshadowing like Madoka to be good.

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

I like E7 AO thus far but it's almost silly (and close to impossible) to not compare it to E7. We've had the Gekko State, Eureka, and Renton's name show up. Hell, even with its 50 episode length E7 dragged on at certain points but the thing is that they had two pieces to establish the story they were telling. Characters and an environment / mythos to work with.

At this point E7 AO has its own environment while 'borrowing' what E7 brought to the table but it really hasn't done anything with the characters. I fell in love with the innocence and wonder Renton had starting out and stuck around to see how he dealt with everything.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

The fact that this does feel so different from its roots... Isn't that what a large amount of the complaints been centered on? Some may be able to accept it, sure. But from my point of view, why even call it Eureka 7 if you are going for different sort of show? I had similar conversations with you in Rebuild so I'm sure we won't find common ground with you here either.

Keeping the audience guessing is fine, but when the techniques used in doing so are questionable, that's where the problems start. I have to wonder how long you can have a character like the Truth constantly being in everybody's face about the truth of the world for half a show like this, and we still haven't been told what is going on. It's like the author going "haha look I have some big huge twist in front of you, but I am not going to reveal it until I want to!" It just becomes a little annoying to watch since so much time is wasted on teasing the audience.

I can understand how a lot of viewers who enjoyed E7 feel a bit cheated by AO. The setting is different, the characters are different, and most importantly, the driving force of the story is different. To oversimplify, E7 was primarily character-driven, whereas AO is primarily event-driven.

In broadest terms, E7 is a story about family; about maintaining and creating "family" in all its varied forms. Eureka and the children, the Eames' impossible dream of a child, Holland and Talho, the crew of the Gekkostate, etc. For Renton, his story is essentially his journey from being without family (almost alone in Bellforest, no real friends) to becoming part of a family (Gekkostate and then the Eames) to creating and fighting for his own family (Eureka and the children). You watch a series like this asking "will." Will Eureka and Renton end up together? Will Charles and Ray let revenge consume them? Will Dominic give Anemone a happy ending?

AO, on the other hand, is a story of mysteries. How the characters interact with one another is less important than how the pieces of the puzzle come together. Ao's "journey" and interaction with others are not driving forces of this story.

In AO, what keeps the viewer interested (hopefully) are "why" questions. Why are the secrets after the scub coral? Why did Eureka bring Elena to the past? Why did the scub come to the past? Why does Goldilocks no longer exist? Why does Eureka want Ao to destroy the scub but Naru wants him to protect it? Whether AO ends up being a "successful" story depends more on the answers to these "why" questions than it does to "will" questions.

I don't think AO has ever presented itself as a character-driven show, and I think it's a bit unfair to criticize it for not being something it has never attempted to be. But as a "sequel" to E7, and existing within that universe, such criticism is to be expected, and I can't really fault someone familiar with the original who feels cheated or let down by the type of story AO has turned out to be.

[ChocoBar9]

Originally Posted by Trajan

I can understand how a lot of viewers who enjoyed E7 feel a bit cheated by AO. The setting is different, the characters are different, and most importantly, the driving force of the story is different. To oversimplify, E7 was primarily character-driven, whereas AO is primarily event-driven.

That makes no sense whatsoever

Originally Posted by Trajan

~snip~

Yeah, it's no surprise that 7 years later and people still don't know what E7 was truly about, it's like the last half of the story went by everyone's heads

Originally Posted by Trajan

I don't think AO has ever presented itself as a character-driven show, and I think it's a bit unfair to criticize it for not being something it has never attempted to be. But as a "sequel" to E7, and existing within that universe, such criticism is to be expected, and I can't really fault someone familiar with the original who feels cheated or let down by the type of story AO has turned out to be.

Those same people would have called it a rehash if it just copied what worked with Eureka 7.

[aardvark]

Originally Posted by ChocoBar9

Yeah, it's no surprise that 7 years later and people still don't know what E7 was truly about, it's like the last half of the story went by everyone's heads

It was incredibly rich, thematically, so really its not surprising that a lot of people get something different out of the show. Love and family, growing up and realizing what your place in the grand scheme of things is, coming to terms with adulthood and the responsibilities that carries, importance of diversity and effects of intolerance (race, religion, etc), terrorism, war and its connections to several of these themes, pretty heavy environmental slant...the list kinda goes on.

You pretty much get out of it what you are willing to imo.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by Trajan

I can understand how a lot of viewers who enjoyed E7 feel a bit cheated by AO. The setting is different, the characters are different, and most importantly, the driving force of the story is different. To oversimplify, E7 was primarily character-driven, whereas AO is primarily event-driven.

I think there is still time for a little more character work in AO. I hope it's taken advantage of.

Of the 3 Pied Piper kids, for example, I actually think at this juncture Fleur has the most interesting potential for a character arc (however much this show allows for such) from what we've been shown. What we know about her chiefly so far is that her father had a choice between saving her and her mother, and he chose her, and her mother gave her organs so she might live, or whatever the story was. So we see that she hates Christophe and try to lash out at him in any way she can.

On the surface, this maybe sounds a bit plain, and unfairly irrational on Fleur's part even. But I think it would be great if it turned out that her explosive attitude towards her dad was just a mask for feelings of severe, deep seated guilt. The guilt of feeling that she kept her life by robbing her mother of hers. Not blaming her father, but herself. But, as she is unable to handle these feelings, she instead does just blames her dad and subconsciously redirects her negative emotions on him, an easier option than actually dealing with her own issue. I think an exploration of something like that would be quite fascinating to watch.