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Snowbold · 2020-03-01, 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denker

You just answered yourself tho.
Hiroaki clearly has no "ambitions" but he is still egotistical enough to carry on with no consideration for others' ambitions.
Egotistical people don't want egotistical people above them. Its all about dem balance.
Hiroaki was already starting to a be a burden for Huguenot.

We still don't know enough about Aria and Lucius' families.
We know Aria's was already a low-ranked one in problems that fell off, but we don't know much beyond that. All we know is that she had to drop the academy and work in another country by relaying on her skill with the sword.
We don't know much about Lucius either, besides what Huguenot (unreliable narrator) said.

And like King Phillip, Hiroaki would be an arrogant and clueless puppet for noble factions that keep him occupied (with women in his case).

Hiroaki would think its great since the nobles beneath him would 'take care' of all the annoying parts.
True, Huguenot is aware that Hiroaki is a pain to manipulate, but that he is worth the trouble since an intelligent Hero would rethink everything he is doing.

There is a lot we are missing on these noble families.

But it was clear that Aria had potential and power even as a child, since one of Huguenot's knights commented on how strong she was even as a child in the academy.
Likewise, we do know that Lucius was talented and contender for King's Sword. And his family was targeted by the Arbors.

Roberto1 · 2020-03-01, 22:40

so lucius vs alfred, what do you guys think?
i think lucius would defeat alfred with medium difficult, since Rio defeated both of them easily, but lucius put at least a fight, while alfred was defeated pretty damn fast even with Rui aid

Misha Necron · 2020-03-02, 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roberto1

so lucius vs alfred, what do you guys think?
i think lucius would defeat alfred with medium difficult, since Rio defeated both of them easily, but lucius put at least a fight, while alfred was defeated pretty damn fast even with Rui aid

If it is before Lucius' transformation then I can say Alfred will win but if it is after the transformation then Lucius would win.

Snowbold · 2020-03-02, 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roberto1

so lucius vs alfred, what do you guys think?
i think lucius would defeat alfred with medium difficult, since Rio defeated both of them easily, but lucius put at least a fight, while alfred was defeated pretty damn fast even with Rui aid

Alfred, but with severe difficulty. Lucius had to rely on cheap tactics because he knew he lacked that extra oomph to finish against stronger opponents. If there were no hostages, Lucius wouldn't have been able to put up a fight vs Rio. Without hostages, Alfred would have the upper hand, but it would be a tough fight and Lucius would have to use every trick in the book while Alfred couldn't afford to get cocky.

Denker · 2020-03-02, 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowbold

And like King Phillip, Hiroaki would be an arrogant and clueless puppet for noble factions that keep him occupied (with women in his case).

Do we know if Philip was that bad? We only know superficial aspects of him when dealing with an orphan in the middle instability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowbold

Hiroaki would think its great since the nobles beneath him would 'take care' of all the annoying parts.

Yes, until Hiroaki royally fucked up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowbold

True, Huguenot is aware that Hiroaki is a pain to manipulate, but that he is worth the trouble since an intelligent Hero would rethink everything he is doing.

See my point above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowbold

But it was clear that Aria had potential and power even as a child, since one of Huguenot's knights commented on how strong she was even as a child in the academy.
Likewise, we do know that Lucius was talented and contender for King's Sword. And his family was targeted by the Arbors.

Neither of those cases means that the nobles would put up with Hiroaki as both hero and king.

EDIT: To add to my point, "puppet rulers" are a gamble. Look at Game of Thrones Joffrey. His mother Cersei thought he could manipulate him, then he went and started a war by ordering one single decapitation.

jagt · 2020-03-02, 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roberto1

so lucius vs alfred, what do you guys think?
i think lucius would defeat alfred with medium difficult, since Rio defeated both of them easily, but lucius put at least a fight, while alfred was defeated pretty damn fast even with Rui aid

It depends on if we're talking about the Lucius from volume 7 or the Lucius from volume 14.

The Lucius from the volume 7 wasn't really that different from Alfred aside from the different skills of their swords, if we restrict it to just fighting with pure swordmanship and body strangthening then I think it will be Alfred's victory because Alfred was able to react to Rio's attacks when he was using wind spirit arts for accelerating his body while Lucius was always clueless about where they would come from when he did the same, for Rio this is a detail that he uses to differentiate simple strong people from the first class that consisted of just Gouki and Uzuma for him until he fought Alfred.

But when we factor in the magic attacks from their swords we need to answer first if Alfred would be able to deal with Lucius' most tricky attacks like the short range teleportation or piercing the space through with his sword for stabbing his enemies at a distance.

Rio was able to predict this attacks and to deal with them because he had senses way more sharper than Alfred's and was able to notice the signs of the space magic's activation. Is Alfred, a normal human able of the same? If he isn't Lucius will easily stab his back without him noticing, If he's able to dodge or of reacting to Lucius' tricks then Alfred has the upper hand, for some time they wouldn't have a way to kill each other and it would become and endurance fight, but Lucius' magic attacks consume more magic power then Alfred's because they manipulate the space, a form of magic way more complicated, Lucius would run out of magic power first and be killed by Alfred.

If Alfred fights against the Lucius from the volume 14 then it will be Lucius' victory, we have the same problem then before. Is Alfred able to deal with Lucius' magic attacks that manipulates the space? If he isn't instant dead, if he's again the endurance contest, but this time Alfred would Run out of magic power first because Lucius' new or arm, it wasn't confirmed which of the two, was acting like a tank of magic power fro Lucius' use, with this Alfred would be the one of running out of magic power first and will be defeated.

Snowbold · 2020-03-02, 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denker

Do we know if Philip was that bad? We only know superficial aspects of him when dealing with an orphan in the middle instability.

EDIT: To add to my point, "puppet rulers" are a gamble. Look at Game of Thrones Joffrey. His mother Cersei thought he could manipulate him, then he went and started a war by ordering one single decapitation.

Let's put it this way:

Phillip inherited a bad situation. His demented father handed over too much power to Arbor before he died. This included appointments of royal guards and other important posts.
After Flora's kidnapping, he stripped these positions from the Arbors and demoted their status (not the noble title though).
And yet in five years, they not only recovered their power, the exceeded it (Proxia was aiding them behind the scenes).
As the reader we know they had help. However, this shows how pathetic their faction was. Phillip took only some power away and allowed for them to regain it all back. He didn't demote them, strip noble status or execute them. Which any of these would have been acceptable for punishment of the family who were negligent in protecting royalty.
And think of this, the reason Rio had to leave so quickly was that he was framed right? Phillip condoned the framing of Rio as a means to protect Huguenot. So that shows he was willing to make unseemly decisions to protect his power.
With this in mind: He knew the Arbors were a threat, he took power away from them, he was willing to frame innocent people to protect himself. How could he have failed?!

So yes, he was that bad...

Denker · 2020-03-02, 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowbold

Let's put it this way:

Phillip inherited a bad situation. His demented father handed over too much power to Arbor before he died. This included appointments of royal guards and other important posts.
After Flora's kidnapping, he stripped these positions from the Arbors and demoted their status (not the noble title though).
And yet in five years, they not only recovered their power, the exceeded it(Proxia was aiding them behind the scenes).
As the reader we know they had help. However, this shows how pathetic their faction was. Phillip took only some power away and allowed for them to regain it all back. He didn't demote them, strip noble status or execute them. Which any of these would have been acceptable for punishment of the family who were negligent in protecting royalty.
And think of this, the reason Rio had to leave so quickly was that he was framed right? Phillip condoned the framing of Rio as a means to protect Huguenot. So that shows he was willing to make unseemly decisions to protect his power.
With this in mind: He knew the Arbors were a threat, he took power away from them, he was willing to frame innocent people to protect himself. How could he have failed?!

I can see your point in all of that, but let me point out one specific part:
"And yet in five years, they not only recovered their power, the exceeded it"
My guess is that their comeback was just too damn fast to do much about it.

Philip must've thought "Ok, I dealt quite the blow to the with this. I would take them decades to build back their power. In that time, I can build my own forces to make their next head submit." because politics is something that takes decades, honestly.

He simply didn't expect an external force to back them up. Now, this could be seems as Philip's carelessness coming back to bite him for having underestimated the opponent.
But keep in mind that for most people, just killing everyone in that house wasn't the best choice with the available info at the time.

If you ask me to choose to wipe down my enemies or to make them work for me, if I had the power to do it, I would choose to make them work for me.
Killing them is most of the times the second best choice, or the "just in case" choice.
Again, he didn't expect Proxia to interfere like that.

silenceblade · 2020-03-02, 07:43

The current system is too corrupt. I wouldn't be surprise that the king seat was usurped many times in other countries. In that sense, a civil war was only a matter of time. Philip simply lacked the ability to maintain power (not that I care who wins).

melonchan27 · 2020-03-02, 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagt

It depends on if we're talking about the Lucius from volume 7 or the Lucius from volume 14.

The Lucius from the volume 7 wasn't really that different from Alfred aside from the different skills of their swords, if we restrict it to just fighting with pure swordmanship and body strangthening then I think it will be Alfred's victory because Alfred was able to react to Rio's attacks when he was using wind spirit arts for accelerating his body while Lucius was always clueless about where they would come from when he did the same,.

if lucius vol 7 vs alfred lucius still have a upper hand..

lucius didnt react fast on the vol 7 against rio because he lets his guard down due he thinks rio is still a brat just wanting a revenge and busy thinking how to turn tables against rio while in alfreds case during the commotion on the wedding he saw rios fighting capabilities while lucuis is still not since he thinks rio became strong due the revenge fuel that getting under rios skin will give him an advantage to the fight

Roberto1 · 2020-03-02, 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagt

It depends on if we're talking about the Lucius from volume 7 or the Lucius from volume 14.

The Lucius from the volume 7 wasn't really that different from Alfred aside from the different skills of their swords, if we restrict it to just fighting with pure swordmanship and body strangthening then I think it will be Alfred's victory because Alfred was able to react to Rio's attacks when he was using wind spirit arts for accelerating his body while Lucius was always clueless about where they would come from when he did the same, for Rio this is a detail that he uses to differentiate simple strong people from the first class that consisted of just Gouki and Uzuma for him until he fought Alfred.

But when we factor in the magic attacks from their swords we need to answer first if Alfred would be able to deal with Lucius' most tricky attacks like the short range teleportation or piercing the space through with his sword for stabbing his enemies at a distance.

Rio was able to predict this attacks and to deal with them because he had senses way more sharper than Alfred's and was able to notice the signs of the space magic's activation. Is Alfred, a normal human able of the same? If he isn't Lucius will easily stab his back without him noticing, If he's able to dodge or of reacting to Lucius' tricks then Alfred has the upper hand, for some time they wouldn't have a way to kill each other and it would become and endurance fight, but Lucius' magic attacks consume more magic power then Alfred's because they manipulate the space, a form of magic way more complicated, Lucius would run out of magic power first and be killed by Alfred.

If Alfred fights against the Lucius from the volume 14 then it will be Lucius' victory, we have the same problem then before. Is Alfred able to deal with Lucius' magic attacks that manipulates the space? If he isn't instant dead, if he's again the endurance contest, but this time Alfred would Run out of magic power first because Lucius' new or arm, it wasn't confirmed which of the two, was acting like a tank of magic power fro Lucius' use, with this Alfred would be the one of running out of magic power first and will be defeated.

there is also the fact that Rio fought Lucius with killing intent, while he fought alfred just to distract him, maybe that why alfred could see Rio's movement while Lucius could not, Rio actually wanted to kill lucius, he was fighting for real, Lucius managed to injured Rio even though he used hostages, lucius had 2 hostages, but alfred had 1 strong fighter as support, but alfred couldn't even touch Rio.

what i want to say is that both fought Rio with some kind of support/advantage and both lose, but there are 2 major differences

1._ Rio fought lucius with killing intent while he didn't with Alfred

2._ Lucius managed to hurt Rio but Alfred didn't even touch him, both fights with factors to their favor, hostages or allies

I think Lucius is stronger than alfred and would kill him 9 times of 10 if alfred Doesnt have some support like aria or someone strong

i also gotta said i have really high expectations of Nidor proxia, he better be much stronger than he has show, he is supposedly a great conqueror a man who values strength above everything else, and if his level is just in lucius league then what a BS

Denker · 2020-03-02, 11:20

Lucius couldn't properly follow Rio even after understanding he is a threat (by losing an arm)
Then again, Roberto's argument about Rio going for the kill against Lucius is valid. Moreover, Rio didn't hold back as much, since he used those white spheres of magic + the earth spikes constantly, leaving him with no room to breathe.

Pierre · 2020-03-02, 22:40

That argument against Phillip is nonsense. He didnt' have some nobody backing him, he had Reis so far the main villain of the story, and at minimum the underling of the big bad of the story. So I think you give him way to much crap about losing in five years. Hell even if you are going to say, well doesn't matter that he essentially had a god tier backing, Phillip was going to lose for the same reason that rio would always win. Plot armor. The story could not progress if Phillip was some uber competent king who won the day.

Regarding Alfred vs Lucius, I honestly am not terribly impressed with Alfred. Out of the two even though he lost both fights, Lucius was a more dangerous opponent in both fights, while Alfred was kind of just a "messing around" fight.

Snowbold · 2020-03-02, 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denker

Lucius couldn't properly follow Rio even after understanding he is a threat (by losing an arm)
Then again, Roberto's argument about Rio going for the kill against Lucius is valid. Moreover, Rio didn't hold back as much, since he used those white spheres of magic + the earth spikes constantly, leaving him with no room to breathe.

Another problem is that in both fights Lucius and Alfred had with Rio had similar circumstances.

Lucius had hostages in both fights with Rio. (Just Flora the first time and both Flora & Christina the second time). And in both cases Rio was out to kill Lucius.
Alfred had back up from Rui in both the kidnapping fight and the forest escape. Likewise, Rio was holding back and hiding his true potential so as to keep his spirit arts a secret.

So comparing Lucius vs Alfred based on their respective fights with Rio will give us a limited view on their fights with each other.
In this scenario, it is likely that Lucius will not have a hostage to distract Alfred, and it is likely before Rio mutilated him so Lucius will not have the enhancements he got from Reis.
Plus they are different kinds of fighters from each other. Rio and Alfred are not analogous to each other for comparing a fight with Lucius and vice-versa.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

That argument against Phillip is nonsense. He didnt' have some nobody backing him, he had Reis so far the main villain of the story, and at minimum the underling of the big bad of the story. So I think you give him way to much crap about losing in five years. Hell even if you are going to say, well doesn't matter that he essentially had a god tier backing, Phillip was going to lose for the same reason that rio would always win. Plot armor. The story could not progress if Phillip was some uber competent king who won the day.

Regarding Alfred vs Lucius, I honestly am not terribly impressed with Alfred. Out of the two even though he lost both fights, Lucius was a more dangerous opponent in both fights, while Alfred was kind of just a "messing around" fight.

Didn't have backing? He was the king, and he had two factions (royal faction, and Huguenot's faction which amounted to about half of nobles) backing him.
Sure, Arbor had an advantage. How come the King didn't know about that? Reis was visiting constantly as Proxia's ambassador. Huguenot even made that statement as an example of why he suspected the Arbors were in league with Proxia. So then how come he said nothing about that relationship when the Arbors were supposedly the militarist wanting war with Proxia. Imagine a prominent American politician calling for war with China and then it is revealed he has frequent dinners and meetings with the Chinese ambassador. He would be suspicious. The fact that King Phillip didn't use that information shows a carelessness in regards to his enemies.

But I do agree with you about the plot armor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denker

I can see your point in all of that, but let me point out one specific part:
"And yet in five years, they not only recovered their power, the exceeded it"
My guess is that their comeback was just too damn fast to do much about it.

Philip must've thought "Ok, I dealt quite the blow to the with this. I would take them decades to build back their power. In that time, I can build my own forces to make their next head submit." because politics is something that takes decades, honestly.

He simply didn't expect an external force to back them up. Now, this could be seems as Philip's carelessness coming back to bite him for having underestimated the opponent.
But keep in mind that for most people, just killing everyone in that house wasn't the best choice with the available info at the time.

If you ask me to choose to wipe down my enemies or to make them work for me, if I had the power to do it, I would choose to make them work for me.
Killing them is most of the times the second best choice, or the "just in case" choice.
Again, he didn't expect Proxia to interfere like that.

What about King Henry, he wiped out people he didn't like. Kings were temperamental and without some force to control them, they could do a lot. Phillip had the advantage, he could have done more to punish them but didn't.

I'm referring to the English king, I think it was Henry VIII

ivaannom · 2020-03-03, 02:24