2011-05-11, 22:57 | Link #22741 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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Erika is Bernkastel's piece, so under this theory she's basically the detective that the internet theorists added to their forgery. So she does represent the internet, but only indirectly through Bernkastel. The goats are just personifications of the countless theories that the Witch Hunters created.
Lambda said that she was Beato's master in EP3, but then later in EP5 someone (Virgilia?) said that Beato had invited the two voyagers onto the game board for some purpose, and they couldn't remain there without her consent.
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2011-05-11, 23:16 | Link #22742 | |||
The True Culprit
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It's not fantasy in that sense because there are rules. Fantasy doesn't adhere to any rules and makes no promises to be fictional. Fantasy and Fiction are not synonymous. Moreover, these rules do not count as supernatural because they do not help the detective in their deduction processes. The detective is not helped in any way nor is the world inside the narrative touched by any sort of miracle; it is the narrative being crafted in a way for the Reader. They're two entirely different things, and to argue otherwise is to admit that one does not understand what the rules of Knox and Vine are actually saying. Quote:
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No wonder she's so damn evil, this explains everything.
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2011-05-11, 23:18 | Link #22743 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
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Lambda is merely Beatrice's guardian, however it is quite common for the enslaved to do things on their own against their masters whims.
Lambdadelta was more threatening Beatrice into keeping the game in check for Bernkastel so she could stay there for all eternity, not using her authority as ''master'' to make her do it. Rather, ''I gave you a million dollars, now play with my child or I will sue you for interest''. As witches, this is similar to EVA-brattrice(lol) fighting against the predecessor Beatrice. Also, the cat box of Rokkenjima is Beatrice's territory as a witch, regardless of Lambdadelta, she need only give her consent for Beatrice being a witch, but she can be forced out of a territory that is not hers. Lambdadelta has no territory of her own(well she does, but she left it), so for her to arrogantly claim she can totally screw Beatrice over if she disobeys her must imply heavily on her power. Not enough of the fantasy aspect is explained, but similar to how Ange could ''break the magical barrier on the chapel to reach the one truth inside''. Lambdadelta can probably ''Certainly cut through Beatrice's endless possibilities''. I'm just not too sure how her power works. Well, that's what I got out of it any way. I was also confused about that as well. And Aura, what about the rule saying ''Intuition that proves to be right cannot be a technique''? That impacts the detectives abilities, implying that they must have an impartial perspective.Some times, people ''get lucky'', yet it is forbidden for that to happen to the detective. Sometimes police, and other investigators get lucky in real life in their searches. Any mystery that follows these commandments is a mystery with fictional elements playing at hand, regardless if the detective knows they are there or not. They are still helping the detective. Also, fantasy does follow rules somtimes, and not all mystery follows rules. If they do not follow these rules, then they are more realistic. There are plenty of times when Fantasy is explained to the core, such as the seven stakes of Purgatory, they clearly had limits and rules drawn to them, and even had origins of existence. Regardless of if the detective knows it or not, following the rules make forces at work make it impossible for the Servant to be the culprit. Meaning if I was a rich person, and had a house full of servants, and one of them hated me, my mansion exploded and erased all evidence, and someone made a mystery out of it. It could be possible that that servant did kill me, but if they followed Van Dines or Knox's, they wouldn't be allowed to be selected, hence that mystery has some fiction in it(well, being that the clues would not all be presented it'd hardly be a mystery but you get my point right?). Last edited by cronnoponno; 2011-05-11 at 23:36. |
2011-05-12, 00:48 | Link #22744 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Thinking about it, for me, Lambda would have to be the personification of the author's determination to continue the plot so that Beato's game would be 'understood'. Which is why she would sometimes help the Human side then helps the Witch side the next. She exists in Beato's game to keep the plot going or else there won't be any closure, just like what almost happened in EP4.
It's a bit flawed and messy but yeah... |
2011-05-12, 03:34 | Link #22745 | |||
The True Culprit
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And you completely misunderstood what I meant by 'rules'. Fantasy has no 'rules' because the reader's ability to predict what is happening and understand the inner workings of a tale are not necessary, or even connected to, the quality of the work. The same could not be said of Mystery, where it is less so a narrative so much as a logic puzzle for the reader. Without some sort of guarantee of solvability (like the rules), then it's a failure as a mystery. You can't do whatever the hell you want with a mystery and expect it to be 'good' because a mystery demands certain criteria that fantasy does not. Quote:
If Servants could never be culprits whatsoever ever, then the Dine Inquisitors would've never been able to prosecute the Maid in the EP7 prologue, and Will wouldn't of pussyfooted and spent 15 minutes going on about motive before he was forced to drop a Dine rule. The rules are guidelines, not absolute, supernatural rules.
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2011-05-12, 07:04 | Link #22746 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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As for the purple text, it's not a red, so if George and Maria are culprits all their purple texts mean nothing. The real problem with Kylon's theory is that it doesn't explain how the closed room were created, unless I missed something. So it doesn't really work unless he fixes that.
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2011-05-12, 09:30 | Link #22747 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
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This doesn't seem to have disproved anything I said. All I'm reading is justification for the rules. I already said they're well justified, and brilliant rules. However, even reading your post I can easily reason out that they're not ''realistic''. What other setting would allow one to heartlessly pick fun at murders and guess the culprit and take it as a challenge? Fantasy, if the police went into some house, and started getting excited over a crime, trying to take it as a challenge to find the culprit, needless to say they wouldn't be very good police. Even if the story is written to ''mesh'' with the rules and hide them, it's still the same as covering up guts in the body of a beautiful corpse. To say this is to say something like God's divine plan is working at hand in real life, but events are happening to make it seem like nothing supernatural is happening, so we can dismiss it for being supernatural.(Lets not bring god into this I was only using an example).
Fantasy has unspoken rules to it to, it's just that they're easily changed to adapt to a setting. They don't have a widely accepted list like mystery though, because in the end no one really needs them. Fantasy has wide expectations as well, that can almost be considered rules, one of them would pretty much be: Elves must be of a noble race, if an elf is to be ''evil'', they must be of a branching race, such as a ''dark elf''. Hating humans does not make an elf evil, it makes them neutral, humans are not the center of the world. But defeating that and making a unique and brilliant setting that changes that general pattern makes it funner. |
2011-05-12, 10:44 | Link #22748 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Bern's game took common sense and real life logic and tossed them out of the window, it also doesn't give a damn about knox and dine rules as well as any narrative consistency and suspension of disbelief.
It is better to consider it a puzzle game rather than a mystery.
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2011-05-12, 10:53 | Link #22749 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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I see it as Bernkastel's quiz question.
To me the important part about all of this is that this is the result of a game without a reader. Edit: To explain a bit, the story exists only to interest the reader, a reader "in mind" (target audience or specific person). What really matters to these arcs we've seen from the start is the riddles they ask you. Made (at least the first ones) to be enjoyed by a reader. This is why the story has to be realistic to some level (in other arcs' cases), because otherwise the "target audience/specific reader" wouldn't even be interested to begin with. The true gameboard is not limited by any genre, the mystery is just how it was used in order to reach a specific target audience/specific reader. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-05-12 at 11:04. |
2011-05-12, 11:05 | Link #22750 |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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I think that even after the EP7 tea party, some people didn't realize the narrator could use "deceptive reading techniques" without actually lying about what people were doing or saying, so it was good to get that out in the open.
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2011-05-12, 11:10 | Link #22751 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Ah, well, there's that too, but wasn't that in a way thrown in our face since arc 2? I mean, red truth and the meta world, not fantasy scenes.
Guess it was never so clear as it is now tho. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-05-12 at 11:25. |
2011-05-12, 12:42 | Link #22752 | ||||
The True Culprit
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And, frankly, Erika's argument, while logically valid, goes against the spirit of Bern's game. Quote:
The author forging a story to go a certain way, even if it is not realistic, is not the same as using supernatural elements to solve a mystery. Even if an author is weaving a story a certain way, everything that happens in a Mystery story could happen in real life, no matter how improbable. Quote:
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2011-05-12, 14:32 | Link #22753 | |||
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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Your move. Quote:
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One of these is not only perfectly acceptable in mysteries, but is indeed a staple of them. The other isn't okay, hmm? I'd also disagree with both of you about fantasy, but I don't see how that line of discussion is especially relevant.
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2011-05-12, 16:32 | Link #22754 | ||
The True Culprit
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Your move. Quote:
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2011-05-12, 18:05 | Link #22755 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
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Spoiler for Long text wall:
Maybe I'm confusing what you said here, the supernatural elements don't ''solve'' the mystery, but they are there and they certainly do affect it. Can you state where it was listed as a fact that Mystery does have rules? That the very definition of a mystery is that it follows these rules? Because my research is probably wrong, but Knox made his list in 1929, did Mysteries suddenly start there? |
2011-05-12, 18:37 | Link #22756 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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Any stories follows litteracy rules.
Isn't that enough, doesn't matter that it's fantasy of mystery or whatever else, reality doesn't follow these rules. There are no main characters, no introduction, no development, no plot twist, no antagonists, etc, in _real_ reality. A story doesn't have to be a mystery either to be "mysterious" and for someone to figure out the truth to them/what's going to occur in the end of the story. It depends if the author is good or just cheaply reusing deus ex machinas over and over, but a normal story comes with enough forshadowing that a really avid reading can figure it out before the end, mystery, fantasy, romance, action, whatever else you want. To add a bit more, you are _never_ privy of the inside thoughts of anyone in reality. These rules doesn't exist in reality, and there are thousand mores, and they affect any given fiction, and in most cases even the "stories based on a true event". |
2011-05-12, 20:29 | Link #22758 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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George: 「真里亞ちゃんが人なんか殺すもんか。真里亞ちゃんには誰も殺せないよ。」 So if George and Maria were killers none of what they say can be used as the truth. Quote:
As for the closed room, specifically the parent's initial closed room of 6, I figured that the 6 were intending to fake as per usual, but I just thought that they weren't really dead until after the closed room was opened. And thus the need for the children to kill (some, but not all) of their own parents. Now, killing people with a surreptitious prick to the neck with a poisoned needle or something, that's kinda far fetched but... (see below0 Quote:
So for example, it's never explained how Kyrie and Rudolf killed the other parents. But by the process of elimination, they must have and so because this is a puzzle, you just need to know or figure out the final result. Anyways, even if that one line about Maria not being a killer doesn't hold, I have a feeling I missed out on another rule somewhere, since it seems Ryukishi's/Bernkastel's intention was to have the Battler Gang be the culprits. I'll go through all the lines again and double check... Edit! Quote:
If he added one more rule, that the children would never kill their parents, that would seal it into the one solution. In fact, when Erika showed up, I thought he was going to use this second solution! ... but then yah... she made this weird-ass excuse of a counter-argument... heh. Last edited by Kylon99; 2011-05-12 at 20:40. |
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2011-05-12, 21:02 | Link #22759 | ||||
The True Culprit
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You're looking at the rules, but you're not cross-referencing the rules with each other to see the unstated, emergent rules that arise from them.
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2011-05-12, 21:02 | Link #22760 |
Senior Member
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The intended means to rule out George was supposed to be:
1) In order to carry out the second twilight, one of the first twilight "victims" had to be sealed inside. 2) Another first twilight "victim" must have survived to carry out the fifth and sixth twilight. 3) With two survivors, in order to get six victims in the first two twilights, the culprit of the first twilight must have killed all victims so far. In order for the culprit sealed in Natsuhi's room to carry out any murders, said culprit must have carried out all murders in the first two twilights. 4) George did not kill Shannon by Jessica's purple text. 5) ** It's not specifically covered anywhere, but Kanon's death doesn't count towards a culprit. ** 6) George did not kill Gohda, Kumasawa, Nanjo, or Jessica. (alibid) 7) ** Killing Battler or Maria after the narrative ends doesn't count either ** 8) George could not kill any victim, therefore he isn't a culprit. (Asterisked areas are weak spots. Erika could have attacked on point 7 rather than where she did.) A "children never kill their parents" rule wouldn't help; one of the false victims of the first twilight must have carried out all the real murders in that twilight.
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