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Old 2003-11-25, 19:22   Link #161
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But for much of the time she's been almost schizophrenic when it comes to mood swings.

Also, I don't think you can say he never wants to talk things out with her, considering we don't have any evidence. That just happened to be a really bad time. He was worried about Haruka. It's not like he went over there thinking "Heheh, I'm so totally gonna score" or something.
Takayuki keeps giving her false reassurance. Everytime she tries to talk he either turns a blind eye or goes back to his "It's kkay routine"

She WANTS to believe him, but her heart says otherwise.

She's in a conflict whether to self delude herself and believe his words or not. For most of the time she chose the former, because ignorance is bliss and Takayuki aided this lie.
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Old 2003-11-25, 19:37   Link #162
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Takayuki was rarely really responsive even when she was simply being open and sensible.
My point is that she hardly ever was in the first place. Not since Haruka has woken up, at least.

He agreed to move in with her after thinking it through. I think that shows he's receptive to discussions concerning their relationship.

This is how it seems to be going:

- Mitsuki acts like nothing is wrong. Takayuki doesn't talk to her because [perhaps] he thinks she's fine. She's certainly acting like it.

- Mitsuki gets sick of acting like she's fine. So she accuses him of still loving Haruka, often getting hysterical in the process. Takayuki doesn't talk to her because that won't lead to a calm discussion.

- Mitsuki decides "hey, we better get this straightened out", and so fate has her calling at the worst possible time. This is neither her nor Takayuki's fault.

The reason Takayuki is not bending over backwards to discuss things with Mitsuki is because he's not the one with the problem. Or, rather he is, but it's of a different sort. Mitsuki is the one with the doubts and fears, therefore I think it's logical that she's the one that tries to get them addressed, again, calmly.

I don't know, from the reaction I'm getting here, maybe I'm absolutely nuts to expect her to sit down with Takayuki, perhaps at dinner, and voice her concerns minus slapping/throwing books in his face/begging for reassurance.
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Old 2003-11-25, 19:47   Link #163
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Wow, did I break the thread or something?
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Old 2003-11-25, 20:17   Link #164
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Wow, did I break the thread or something?
There seems to be a glitch on this thread
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Old 2003-11-25, 20:23   Link #165
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Originally Posted by musouka
don't know, from the reaction I'm getting here, maybe I'm absolutely nuts to expect her to sit down with Takayuki, perhaps at dinner, and voice her concerns minus slapping/throwing books in his face/begging for reassurance.
You can't blame her for being hysterical, he either turns away a blind eye (literally in fact, in episode 8), avoids the issue, or give her false reassurance.
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Old 2003-11-25, 20:27   Link #166
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No, I can't say that I blame her per say. The problem is that getting hysterical seems to be making things worse, in that it's not exactly getting the reaction she wants. Far from it, he's withdrawing from her.

Something has to give here.
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Old 2003-11-26, 12:31   Link #167
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Originally Posted by Mentar
Grifis:

> If she saw him just as friends and he sank after she did
> what she could as a friend, she had no obligation to feel guilty.

Brr. Okay. You and me don't have to be friends, but stuff like this is giving me goosebumps. Honest.

I don't share your obsession with the "guilt" factor. Your and my own idea and ideals of what's "right" and "wrong", of what "friends" and "love" mean are very very different and incompatible. It's academically interesting how different the conclusions are you can draw out of this.

In this spirit, let's stop our dispute here. And sorry if I came over as too patronizing, it was a worthwhile exchange IMHO
---Actually Mentar the main difference between mine and your argument is that you see one option where I see other better possibilities. Being the realist that you are, I'm surprised that you're getting goosebumps. I'm kind of wondering why myself.

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Old 2003-11-26, 13:42   Link #168
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Actually I am suprised that she is even making a move to keep her man despite all the shit that Takayuki has thrown back at her. Her tolerance till now is commendable and I can't really blame her for going hysterical on him. More so when woman in the 21st century are supposed to be more career minded and independent. I guess it doesn't apply to all woman?
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Old 2003-11-26, 13:57   Link #169
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> Actually Mentar the main difference between mine and
> your argument is that you see one option where I see
> other better possibilities.

I'd word this differently: I see that there are no other credible options which have an acceptable "risk/probability" ratio to carry out. The "other better possibilities" you list can be reduced to "do the 'right' thing, and if Takayuki tilts and/or kills himself, you have no reason to blame yourself, since you did the 'right thing' (tm)".

Applied to Mitsuki, your position is a negated one - "you're doing the wrong thing, so you're guilty" - and pretend that doing the "right" thing is the "better possibility", leading to better results. I happen to disagree - I believe it would most likely lead to disaster. But none of us can say with certainty who is right, so we have to agree to disagree here.

> Being the realist that you are, I'm surprised that
> you're getting goosebumps. I'm kind of wondering
> why myself.

Because I consider this "rightful" approach cold and inhumane. You don't play heads or tails with the lives of your friends, "right" or "wrong" be damned. What's "right" in your set of values is selfish and cruel in my set of values - in fact to a degree which is causing me goosebumps. I would not want to have friends thinking like you - because if I was in trouble and had to rely on people with YOUR set of values, I might be pretty much alone in the rain.

Not to diss you, just to explain. That's where they're from.
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Old 2003-11-26, 14:04   Link #170
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Musouka: I can only reiterate that we seem to watch different animes. Mitsuki is _constantly_ trying to talk to him about her issues and problems, and Takayuki's response is fairly uniform: He's giving the lukewarm "Hey, what happened - it's all daijobu" responses, and thus by denying that there IS anything they HAVE to talk about, cancels all attempts of serious communication and honest crisis management.

Actually, in the last episodes, Mitsuki has been voicing her worries EXPLICITLY, heads-on, multiple times, in fact so much that it's starting to annoy viewers ... Takayuki has no excuse whatsoever to avoid the issue, and he couldn't claim not to know how much she's falling apart.

"What do we do about moving together?"
"What does Haruka's situation have to do with it?"
"You still like her. (suki is a bit more than "like" in japanese)"
"When will we tell her about us?"
"I am scared that you won't come back."

How many questions of these did he answer?
What did Takayuki do to resolve any of the obvious issues?

He stays his "there's nothing to talk about, it's daijobu" course, and since this is obviously not true, Mitsuki is getting increasingly desperate. Heck, once my partner cries while talking to me, I know I must have royally screwed up before and get to the bottom of this. Mitsuki WANTS and NEEDS to have this done. Takayuki DENIES this. Not only because Mitsuki's "hysterical" (then a responsible partner has to act immediately IMHO) or calling "at a bad time", but because he doesn't WANT to face the facts. Who is he fooling? Himself - nobody else.

Under these circumstances, blaming Mitsuki for the "lack of communication" is just plain silly. Sorry.
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Old 2003-11-26, 14:12   Link #171
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can we get a mod to change the title of this thread? For some odd reason, I find it offensive ... maybe because I am a mitsuki supporter?
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Old 2003-11-26, 16:22   Link #172
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Originally Posted by IPv6
can we get a mod to change the title of this thread? For some odd reason, I find it offensive ... maybe because I am a mitsuki supporter?

Yeah it is.........u dont see mitsuki fans putting........HARUKA IS A BITCH or AKANE IS A BITCH............so why dont they change the name
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Old 2003-11-26, 18:21   Link #173
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"What do we do about moving together?"
"What does Haruka's situation have to do with it?"
"You still like her. (suki is a bit more than "like" in japanese)"
"When will we tell her about us?"
"I am scared that you won't come back."
Yes, she started out normal there. Then she began throwing stuff at him. I don't see why this is so hard to understand. Once you begin screaming and throwing stuff, then it is no longer a rational discussion.

Her actions are understandable in that they are caused by her fear of losing him. But they are not helping. As a matter of fact, they are driving him away from her. He doesn't seem to want to spend time with her. This is not a good thing. Takayuki is to blame as well for running away from it all, but she's not exactly helping.

Or are you saying she can do no wrong?

As soon as he pauses, she freaks. What I think she needs to do is just stay quiet when he goes into that mode and let him think it out.

What I think Takayuki probably needs right now is time to get his feelings in order without pressure from either party. I'll readily admit that Haruka's big-eyed "let's say the spell again" or "we'll be together forever, right?" aren't exactly helping his mental state right now either. About the only thing she has in her defense is ignorance as to what's going on.

Oh, forget it. It's obvious that we can't see eye to eye on this. Mitsuki is not an evil monster. Her actions are understandable, but they are not helping the situation any more than Takayuki's.
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Old 2003-11-26, 18:53   Link #174
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So it's the rationality you're really concerned about?

If your point is that it would be "better" to stay calm throughout everything and give him time to sort it out, I don't disagree with you at all. Sure it would be better, no doubt. However, it wouldn't make a difference, IMHO.

The thing is that Takayuki has no answers to the questions yet. It's that simple. But instead of confronting the problems, recognizing them and honestly dealing with him (stating that he doesn't have answers yet would be perfectly fine, IMHO), he's evading them, by pretending that everything is daijobu. This is not only dishonest, it's also frustrating for Mitsuki to no end. Takayuki's denial mode ties her hands and leaves her alone, and this is why she's lashing out in desperation.

Your prior articles left me with the impression that according to you Mitsuki is the one deluding herself and that she's the main obstacle to a rational approach to tackle the problems. This is plainly and obviously wrong. Should I have misunderstood you there, gomen. The one who is trying to delude himself in order to evade the problems he has no solution for is Takayuki. Mitsuki's reaction certainly doesn't help - but it's Takayuki who nixes things.

Mitsuki is pretty much powerless in all this - the only real option she has is to demand to have the "face the music" session or leave. However, she is way too scared to do so - so she'll have to live with her current state until she cracks. I don't envy her.
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Old 2003-11-26, 19:23   Link #175
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hmm.. i think Takayuki already has all the answers he needs...

Hesitation at Mitsuki's questions exists because he doesn't want to hurt her. But she answered without hesitation Haruka's questions.
Takayuki has already made up his mind, he'll stay with Haruka, but he has this 'situation' with Mitsuki, that he yet doesn't know how to handle...

The single reason against this theory would be, that he gave up on visiting Haruka because she asked so, but when he thought the worst, he ran to the hospital. After seeing the scar, i think he definately made up his mind. Now how to solve the Mitsuki problem...
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Old 2003-11-26, 19:51   Link #176
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Your prior articles left me with the impression that according to you Mitsuki is the one deluding herself and that she's the main obstacle to a rational approach to tackle the problems. This is plainly and obviously wrong.
Both Takayuki and Mitsuki are doing their fair share of hiding from their problems. The difference is that I see both of them doing it while you seem to want to heap it all on Takayuki.

When you have a problem, it is probably best to get it out in the open. If you honestly think Mitsuki isn't sitting on her feeling all those times she acts like everything is peachy between them and if she talks enough at him everything will be fine, then that's your prerogative. Personally, I see her acting during those times as someone that doesn't want to face what's wrong until she is forced to by her inability to pretend any longer.

Mitsuki is, at heart, a good person. She wants to do the right thing and tries to do what she thinks is best. Unfortunately those "pesky" emotions keep on getting in the way, and eventually she allows them to overcome her. It's natural. She thinks that the right thing is to let Takayuki help Haruka, but she can't help but be worried about his feelings towards her.

But, does she tell him this from the beginning? No. She lets him go and see her, trying to tell herself it's the right thing to do, even though it's eating her up inside. Then something happens (such as getting drunk) and all those fears and doubts pour out. Then when Takayuki doesn't have any forthcoming answers, that feeds into her doubts. It's a vicious cycle.

The only thing I am saying about Mitsuki is that it would be better in the long run if she addressed any doubts she might have about something in a timely fashion, not letting them build up and explode. This goes all the way back to helping Takayuki and Haruka get together, for crying out loud.

And that since they are her feelings of doubts and fears that she is the one that should attempt to get them resolved in a fashion that won't leave Takayuki feeling alienated every time. Because as it stands now, nothing has been resolved, nothing will be resolved, and it's on both their shoulders. Not just Mitsuki's. Not just Takayuki's. The reason I'm focusing on Mitsuki is because she's the focus of this thread.

I think it's obvious that we share different views on her. So we might as well agree to disagree and see what happens in the show. I think the important thing is than neither of us views her as a "bitch".
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Last edited by musouka; 2003-11-26 at 22:07.
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Old 2003-11-26, 21:46   Link #177
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Originally Posted by Mentar
I'd word this differently: I see that there are no other credible options which have an acceptable "risk/probability" ratio to carry out. The "other better possibilities" you list can be reduced to "do the 'right' thing, and if Takayuki tilts and/or kills himself, you have no reason to blame yourself, since you did the 'right thing' (tm)".

Applied to Mitsuki, your position is a negated one - "you're doing the wrong thing, so you're guilty" - and pretend that doing the "right" thing is the "better possibility", leading to better results. I happen to disagree - I believe it would most likely lead to disaster. But none of us can say with certainty who is right, so we have to agree to disagree here.

Because I consider this "rightful" approach cold and inhumane. You don't play heads or tails with the lives of your friends, "right" or "wrong" be damned. What's "right" in your set of values is selfish and cruel in my set of values - in fact to a degree which is causing me goosebumps. I would not want to have friends thinking like you - because if I was in trouble and had to rely on people with YOUR set of values, I might be pretty much alone in the rain.

Not to diss you, just to explain. That's where they're from.
--------Looks like I have more explaining to do 'cause it seems you didn't see my point. I still wonder why you think Takayuki would kill himself. I'm sure this anime could come up with that kind of story line for over-dramatic purpose but realistically I doubt it. I didn't know that you go about living your life thinking of the worst possible scenerio but I don't have that mindset. I'm sorry that by not having that mindset will make my approach cold and inhumane.

So what you're saying is: by forcing herself on him and sleeping with him to snap him out of it, that's the best option possible because there's no risk of disaster instead of my approach of recovering his mental state first, letting him wait and decide for himself which to you probably will lead to disaster. Although I have no idea where the disaster will be coming from with my approach but I know now Mitsuki is nearing disaster because of the action she made that you thought as the best possible option. So what was your set of values again?

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Old 2003-11-26, 22:24   Link #178
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can we get a mod to change the title of this thread? For some odd reason, I find it offensive ... maybe because I am a mitsuki supporter?
I think the reason the mods didn't change the thread name because its not aganist the forum rules. Everyone has the right to express their opinions on these forums and you have to respect that. Go ahead and make an Haruka or akane is a bitch thread, I wouldn't get offended even though im pro Akane & Haruka. What we need now is Takayuki is a bitch thread.
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Old 2003-11-27, 06:39   Link #179
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> I still wonder why you think Takayuki would kill himself.
> I'm sure this anime could come up with that kind of story line
> for over-dramatic purpose but realistically I doubt it.

Already answered. Japanese culture, but not only because of that. Takayuki was displayed as someone destitute, apathic and confused. Or do you consider it a healthy sign to carry a comatose person out of her hotel bed to an exhibition - at night?
How can you ignore that like this?

> I didn't know that you go about living your life thinking of
> the worst possible scenerio but I don't have that mindset.

Oh, quite the opposite, I'm a very positive and optimistic person. But I'm a realist, so when I see my friends tilting I don't look the other way and pretend that things are going to be just fine ... if you gamble with your own life, cool. If you gamble with the lives of your friends who are breaking apart and are in need of help and are more concerned about keeping your feeling of righteousness intact than helping them out, I do consider this cold and inhumane indeed.

> So what you're saying is: by forcing herself on him and
> sleeping with him to snap him out of it, that's the best option
> possible because there's no risk of disaster instead of my
> approach of recovering his mental state first, [...]

How? Still unanswered. I hear a Takayuki-style "daijobou" here

> letting him wait and decide for himself which to you probably
> will lead to disaster. Although I have no idea where the
> disaster will be coming from with my approach [...]

"Daijobou", definitely.

> but I know now Mitsuki is nearing disaster because of the
> action she made that you thought as the best possible option.

*winks*

Very nice stab which can't be parried. Since we'll never see to which results your "approach" would have led, you have the advantage of the unrefutable "told you so".

The immediate result of Mitsuki's actions was that Takayuki was able to return to a normal life with a sane head. We'll have to see now how the story ends. But I guess that if Mitsuki would have taken your "righteous" path, this problem would have never occurred, neh?

> So what was your set of values again?

Caring for the welfare of your friends is more important than theoretical musings over your conscience. Especially don't pull a Takayuki when you see one falling apart
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Old 2003-11-27, 08:02   Link #180
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The immediate result of Mitsuki's actions was that Takayuki was able to return to a normal life with a sane head. We'll have to see now how the story ends. But I guess that if Mitsuki would have taken your "righteous" path, this problem would have never occurred, neh?
If everyone was more open in the beginning no one would be in the mess they are in now.
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