The ever so growing Crunchyroll and Video Streaming in general (+ Netflix & Amazon)

[Wilshere]

Anyone can't access Crunchyroll? All it says to me that it cannot connect to it, maybe a temporarily probelm? Please help.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I realize that is true for many people, Vexx, but I also think you're a dying breed. Legal downloads provide a solution for that, too, but then I'll bet you would object to the downloads having DRM. I just don't see unencumbered downloads making much sense from the perspective of the rights holders.

Why not?

It's not like Crunchyroll, Hulu, etc... have managed to wipe out anime piracy. Not even close. It's still a rare anime series that doesn't get dedicated fansubbing and multiple "unencumbered download" sources.

So I don't see what's the real lost to rights holders if they allow unencumbered downloads. It's not like that's going to be the catalyst for a significant rise in piracy, as these anime episodes are still being heavily pirated anyway through different sources. If anything, allowing unencumbered downloads would likely lower the total number of anime pirates by persuading more of them to go through legal chains.

Whether anime/anime-related companies like it or not, many anime fans prefer downloads to streams and will continue to do so. If Crunchyroll wants to tap into that market, then they need to allow unencumbered downloads. So Crunchyroll has plenty to gain, and nothing really to lose, by allowing unencumbered downloads.

Most evidence that I've seen suggests that people rarely re-watch shows, even ones they've purchased on disc. Most video entertainment programming is largely a throw-away item. People watch something once and then move on.

This is generally true, but the way the exception plays out is key. I think that most anime fans are "one watch and done" for most of the anime shows that we watch. But we all have favorites. And I think that for most anime fans, we enjoy rewatching our favorite shows/episodes from time to time. And here's where we prefer having a library of episodes at our disposal. A library of our favorite anime shows and episodes.

Anime fans that want a library of everything they watch may indeed be a dying breed. But I don't think that anime fans that want a library of their favorites are a dying breed. I don't see this 2nd group going away or significantly declining anytime soon. In fact, this 2nd group may never go away.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If Crunchyroll wants to tap into that market, then they need to allow unencumbered downloads. So Crunchyroll has plenty to gain, and nothing really to lose, by allowing unencumbered downloads.

There is already an example of a company having success with unencumbered downloads on the french market.

A couple years ago the company Wakanim started offering DRM free downloads (and now offer completely free DRM downloads),it was a success and now they have no problem getting companies to give them "a-list" titles (their lineup right now includes AoT and monogatari for example) , especialy aniplex seems to be very willing to work with them.

Got the chance to talk to someone who works for them and he told me that there is actually something to lose for companies like Crunchyroll: credibility with japanese companies , if anything had gone wrong when Wakanim started offering DRM free downloads japanese producers wouldn't have trusted them anymore and would have refused to do business with them, Wakanim was a start up, so decided to take the risk but a company that's already much more established might not risk damaging the relationship they have with japanese companies (not to mention those companies supposedly haven't forgotten that crunchyroll did start as an illegal stream site so the relationship isn't that great in the first place).

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why not?

It's not like Crunchyroll, Hulu, etc... have managed to wipe out anime piracy. Not even close. It's still a rare anime series that doesn't get dedicated fansubbing and multiple "unencumbered download" sources.

People on AS tend to underestimate the aversion a large portion of the anime audience has for pirated shows. There's a very large number of people who would never watch a fansub because they do not want to support piracy. For them, the rise of legal streaming has been a great benefit.

Torrents are also pretty arcane for many people. Streaming has no learning curve.

So I don't see what's the real lost to rights holders if they allow unencumbered downloads. It's not like that's going to be the catalyst for a significant rise in piracy, as these anime episodes are still being heavily pirated anyway through different sources.

I doubt you've ever spoken with people in the media industries. At least here in the US, they certainly do not think this way, and I doubt their Japanese counterparts do either. Look at how cautious Japanese production committees have been when it comes to licensing Blu-rays in North America. Fears about reverse importation has led to all sorts of technical devices, especially the requirement that the subtitles be shown with the Japanese track to discourage Japanese buyers.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by totoum

There is already an example of a company having success with unencumbered downloads on the french market.

Thank you for sharing this success story with us. Which just goes to show that there's definitely a good market for unencumbered downloads amongst the anime fandom. If this can work in France, I'm confident that it can also work in America, Australia, Canada, Great Britian, etc...

However, I'm not sure what you mean by "If anything had gone wrong". That's basically my point - What can go wrong here?

If piracy didn't already exist in large numbers, I could understand company concerns and worries here. But given the current situation, I don't really see how allowing unencumbered downloads could significantly worsen the overall situation for anime and anime-related companies.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

People on AS tend to underestimate the aversion a large portion of the anime audience has for pirated shows.

I've been on six different anime forums during my time as an anime fan. In all my time on anime forums, I've only met a handful of people that expressed such a strong aversion to pirated shows. I've also very rarely met anime fans like that on the anime blogosphere, of which I was a frequent contributor not that long ago. Finally, of the anime fans I know in real life, I didn't encounter any that were hardcore anti-piracy, though most of us agreed that it's good to give some support back to the anime industry (hence why I own a few anime DVDs).

While these people with an aversion to piracy no doubt exist, and are probably significant in number, I'm a bit skeptical that they're as large in number as you suggest. Do you have any sort of evidence to suggest that they are that large?

Torrents are also pretty arcane for many people. Streaming has no learning curve.

And what if you live in a place with a slow internet connection? For those of us like that, myself included, streaming can be a major pain due to all the "buffering" you have to endure while watching a stream.

At least with a DL, I can get the DL going, and go do something else while it finishes off the download. Then, once the DL is completed, I can watch it without being interrupted several times by "buffering".

At least here in the US, they certainly do not think this way, and I doubt their Japanese counterparts do either. Look at how cautious Japanese production committees have been when it comes to licensing Blu-rays in North America. Fears about reverse importation has led to all sorts of technical devices, especially the requirement that the subtitles be shown with the Japanese track to discourage Japanese buyers.

I understand fears over reverse importation, when it comes to cheaper forms of physical media. But for digital downloads? That's not going to affect the sizable physical media collector's market in Japan. Those people want to own DVDs/Blu-Rays of their favorite anime shows, period.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

However, I'm not sure what you mean by "If anything had gone wrong". That's basically my point - What can go wrong here?

Sorry, I extrapolated a conversation that was about the french market only to the english speaking market and I see now that maybe it doesn't quite work.
The situation on the french market was a bit different (I'll spare you the details unless you want them) so there's things that could have gone wrong.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And what if you live in a place with a slow internet connection? For those of us like that, myself included, streaming can be a major pain due to all the "buffering" you have to endure while watching a stream.

I'm not arguing about technological issues. There is a large segment of Internet users for whom anything beyond pointing a browser at a website or using a smartphone app is too demanding. There are certainly lots of reasons to watch unlicensed torrents, especially if you live outside North America or live in rural or otherwise unserved areas. But to see the future as people using ordinary PCs to run torrent clients rather misses large changes in the marketplace. Computing will only become more "appliance-like" as time goes on. Installing specialized software like a torrent client on a general purpose PC then finding torrent servers will become less common as the years go by.

I understand fears over reverse importation, when it comes to cheaper forms of physical media. But for digital downloads? That's not going to affect the sizable physical media collector's market in Japan. Those people want to own DVDs/Blu-Rays of their favorite anime shows, period.

I don't think you understood the point I was trying to make. I was describing the culture of rights-holders, not trying to argue rationally about Blu-rays and piracy. In the minds of most people in the media industries, piracy is per se bad even if there might be reasonable arguments in its favor in certain circumstances. Putting an unencumbered copy of a licensed good in the marketplace encourages piracy of that item. It's a lot easier for someone to copy an AVI file and give it to a friend than it is to teach the friend how to locate and download relevant torrents.

These are cultural issues, not technological ones.

[Kirarakim]

I rarely download anything anymore because of legal streaming, I much prefer it. The best thing to happen to anime in my opinion.

However I still like to purchase home video of series I enjoy for collection purposes. I admit I don't always have time to rewatch everything I buy (although I always plan to).

edit: And I realized I said almost the same thing a year ago on this thread.

[0utf0xZer0]

@Totoum: What format does wakanim distribute in in terms of container, encoding, subs, etc? What digital downloads stuff we've had in North America (ie. iTunes and Funimation) has been pretty limited in that regard - for example, only having dubbed versions of things that are dual-audio releases on Region 1 DVD.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

@Totoum: What format does wakanim distribute in in terms of container, encoding, subs, etc? What digital downloads stuff we've had in North America (ie. iTunes and Funimation) has been pretty limited in that regard - for example, only having dubbed versions of things that are dual-audio releases on Region 1 DVD.

You get the choice of resolution (480p,720p,1080p) that all cost the same, the file you get is a MP4 hardsub file with 8-bit H.264 video (they've considered 10 bit but don't want to lose compatibility with devices other than computers), they use x264 as their encoder if I remember right.
They haven't dubbed anything yet (and only license new shows, they see no commercial interest in anything that's already aired) I'm not sure they plan to dub one of their shows anytime soon.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I rarely download anything anymore because of legal streaming, I much prefer it. The best thing to happen to anime in my opinion.

However I still like to purchase home video of series I enjoy for collection purposes. I admit I don't always have time to rewatch everything I buy (although I always plan to).

edit: And I realized I said almost the same thing a year ago on this thread.

This.

If it's something I want to watch again, I'll buy the DVD/BD thank you.
Give me an excuse to stroke my ego and post my wall(s) full of anime and manga, it's a developed form of masturbation for me.

[Sasukeuzi]

Originally Posted by aohige

This.

If it's something I want to watch again, I'll buy the DVD/BD thank you.
Give me an excuse to stroke my ego and post my wall(s) full of anime and manga, it's a developed form of masturbation for me.

Same here, but when it comes to series that definitely deserve to be seen in HD, I'd rather just dl. This is only for series in the current season. Eventually I'd buy the Blurays just to see them in 1080p. Right now, I'm doing this for Railgun S.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Anime fans that want a library of everything they watch may indeed be a dying breed. But I don't think that anime fans that want a library of their favorites are a dying breed. I don't see this 2nd group going away or significantly declining anytime soon. In fact, this 2nd group may never go away.

Wouldn't that pretty much support the Japanese model of collectors editions though? If I was going to buy a disk...I would rather pay $100 for an awesome collectors edition with limited edition goods than $60 for something that has a lower quality than most fansubs.

The "library of everything I watched" was mostly a popular idea back around the mid-2000s, where streaming sucked ass, torrents took a month per series and DVDs wasn't only the legal way, but was also the most convenient way.

Nowadays, building a large torrent library costs as much as a Blu-ray set. And most of those people are hard to win over, because they usually buy merchandise as a sign of support or import disks if they really want it in their collection.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Torrents are also pretty arcane for many people. Streaming has no learning curve.

Uh...

>download tracker
>click on torrent
>download torrent
>wait and load
>enjoy

I'm sorry but...this sounds ridiculously easy. And anime fans, from what I have seen, overwhelmingly leans into the "techsavvy" sector. I have NOT ever met an anime fan in my life that didn't know how to operate a computer on a level higher than your average American. They might not work in the tech industry (though there's a lot of anime fans in the tech industry), but at least they know how a basic torrent works. And if you're trying to get your average American into anime, forget it. It isn't anywhere near economically feasible.

Originally Posted by totoum

You get the choice of resolution (480p,720p,1080p) that all cost the same, the file you get is a MP4 hardsub file with 8-bit H.264 video (they've considered 10 bit but don't want to lose compatibility with devices other than computers), they use x264 as their encoder if I remember right.
They haven't dubbed anything yet (and only license new shows, they see no commercial interest in anything that's already aired) I'm not sure they plan to dub one of their shows anytime soon.

While the concept sounds nice, I'm not sure how paid downloads are going to win over people. I'm thinking that putting ads into torrents is a better idea.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by speedyexpress48

Nowadays, building a large torrent library costs as much as a Blu-ray set.

Um... what?

With all due respect, this is false.

Torrents are free. Building a large torrent library simply requires a lot of free disk space on a PC or laptop, which a lot of people have anyway. There is no additional charge involved as long as you have a PC with a lot of free disk space. For many people, buying a Blu-Ray set definitely costs more than building a large torrent library.


However, you are correct that most dedicated anime fans are tech savvy enough to get torrents. Which is partly why the download option is pretty popular with a lot of anime fans.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Um... what?

With all due respect, this is false.

Torrents are free. Building a large torrent library simply requires a lot of free disk space on a PC or laptop, which a lot of people have anyway. There is no additional charge involved as long as you have a PC with a lot of free disk space. For many people, buying a Blu-Ray set definitely costs more than building a large torrent library.


However, you are correct that most dedicated anime fans are tech savvy enough to get torrents. Which is partly why the download option is pretty popular with a lot of anime fans.

The cost of an external HD. A lot of people don't have that much free space to spare on the main HD (I know I don't.) But one External will build up an awesome library. Actually...nevermind, I think the price of a cheap DVD set is more like it...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by speedyexpress48

The cost of an external HD. A lot of people don't have that much free space to spare on the main HD (I know I don't.) But one External will build up an awesome library. Actually...nevermind, I think the price of a cheap DVD set is more like it...

Well, to be fair, I guess a lot of it might depend on if an anime fan is also a lot into PC games or not. I only have one PC game installed on my comp right now, so that leaves loads of room for other stuff. But someone with a lot of PC games on their comp may admittedly have little room for a permanent library of anime episodes/series.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, to be fair, I guess a lot of it might depend on if an anime fan is also a lot into PC games or not. I only have one PC game installed on my comp right now, so that leaves loads of room for other stuff. But someone with a lot of PC games on their comp may admittedly have little room for a permanent library of anime episodes/series.

Mine is stuffed with PC games, but anyone who has a lot of software on their computer (someone in tech industry or web development, for example) is not going to have much space for anime downloads. Still though, an external is cheap anyways, and you're getting a lot out of it.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by speedyexpress48

I'm thinking that putting ads into torrents is a better idea.

Ads might be enough to cover translation costs but they're not gonna pay for the license.

[speedyexpress48]

Originally Posted by totoum

Ads might be enough to cover translation costs but they're not gonna pay for the license.

Then sell membership levels for better quality. Works for Crunchyroll.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by speedyexpress48

Then sell membership levels for better quality. Works for Crunchyroll.

Maybe I wasn't clear, they also offer steaming with a similar model to crunchyroll ( free for new stuff,pay for better quality and old stuff), the no DRM downloads are in addition to that.