Macross - Mecha, Weapons, and Technology

[CaptGloval]

Oh it was Ep 17. I thought it was from 14. Oh well, me fail this time.

[Sleepy100]

Originally Posted by CaptGloval

Fail. Space Whale meat is not for eating. (Now where's that member who posts space whale facts at the slightest excuse? Ah found one here.)

Oops. Never did watch Macross 7 (Dynamite?). Fold Crystal seems to be all the rage now.

[grss1982]

BTW....anybody notice these:

http://i35.tinypic.com/34etc9h.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/2r2nnz9.jpg

A Cannon Fodder VF-25 with Super Pack pwning some VAJRA butt!!!!

Take note of the number on the shoulder of the VF-25 in the second pic: SMS 003

SMS 003 is also doing the "Alto Manuever" from Episode 14. You know the one where Alto's VF-25 had an Armored Pack and leaving Ozma astounded at the manuevers he was doing.

BTW, this is really just a sort sequence for the CF VF-25. This sequence was inserted during the time in Episode 20 where Canaria is shown doing her damndest to fight off the Vajra with her Konig Monster.

[squaresphere]

Yep saw it and put it in my post on ep 20. SMS aren't like the grunts in NUNS. These are paid pros that probably have decent combat records before getting hired on. Not to mention even a "grunt" VF-25 is a high potential combat fighter but is still a flying target with a sub par pilot in it. (Sheryl/Luca)

[Daigo]

The VF-25 looks cool, but the whole F-14 look is dated IMO. Something more in line with the F-22 would be nice, as it's much more modern.


I'm not really sure why they decided to go for a retro look.. Maybe they figured that it's too late to retcon things because the VF-01 is supposed to be more advanced than the F-22 obviously. But the VF-01 looks like a tricked out F-14.... So they decided that "look" IS futuristic. Ironically, the F-14 has been retired now, so not even the Navy uses it anymore.

Incidentally I did come across a Variable Fighter that looks similar to the F-22
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/macross/vf...ent/sw-xa1.htm

[Danish78]

Originally Posted by Daigo

The VF-25 looks cool, but the whole F-14 look is dated IMO. Something more in line with the F-22 would be nice, as it's much more modern.


I'm not really sure why they decided to go for a retro look.. Maybe they figured that it's too late to retcon things because the VF-01 is supposed to be more advanced than the F-22 obviously. But the VF-01 looks like a tricked out F-14.... So they decided that "look" IS futuristic. Ironically, the F-14 has been retired now, so not even the Navy uses it anymore.

Incidentally I did come across a Variable Fighter that looks similar to the F-22
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/macross/vf...ent/sw-xa1.htm

Why not the VF-22? The Sturmvogel II was based on the mcdonell douglas yf-23 gray ghost/black widow which lost out to the F-22 in the ATF competition. The VF-25 sorta looks like a Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker (except with variable sweep wings and ruddervators) which is a modern 4.5 generation fighter.

[grss1982]

Originally Posted by Daigo

The VF-25 looks cool, but the whole F-14 look is dated IMO. Something more in line with the F-22 would be nice, as it's much more modern.


I'm not really sure why they decided to go for a retro look.. Maybe they figured that it's too late to retcon things because the VF-01 is supposed to be more advanced than the F-22 obviously. But the VF-01 looks like a tricked out F-14.... So they decided that "look" IS futuristic. Ironically, the F-14 has been retired now, so not even the Navy uses it anymore.

Incidentally I did come across a Variable Fighter that looks similar to the F-22
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/macross/vf...ent/sw-xa1.htm

Actually the VF-25 has more of a SU/MiG with swing wings look than an F-14.

ALSO, its not VF-01, its VF-1.

[ReddyRedWolf]

SK may have applied a bit of the F-22 on the YF-24. The test bed for the VF-25 and VF-27 transforming tech.

[Haesslich]

Kawamori stated in an interview that the reason the VF-25 looks the way it does is because he wanted to get away from real-world fighter designs. Ergo the more classic look of the plane with its variable wings.

[grss1982]

Originally Posted by Haesslich

Kawamori stated in an interview that the reason the VF-25 looks the way it does is because he wanted to get away from real-world fighter designs. Ergo the more classic look of the plane with its variable wings.

I heard that too. In fact IIRC I read that somewhere in Macross World as well. I think it was a translation of an SK Interview or something.

But, I'm curios by "getting away from real-world fighter designs" does that mean that the VF-171 isn't stealthy anymore?

Also does this mean that stealth designs won't be as prominent anymore post-MF in the Macross Universe?

[Haesslich]

Originally Posted by grss1982

I heard that too. In fact IIRC I read that somewhere in Macross World as well. I think it was a translation of an SK Interview or something.

But, I'm curios by "getting away from real-world fighter designs" does that mean that the VF-171 isn't stealthy anymore?

Also does this mean that stealth designs won't be as prominent anymore post-MF in the Macross Universe?

Stealth designs in the Macross universe, at least since Macross Plus, have been ACTIVE stealth systems - not passive ones, since to hide the infrared and other EM signatures is... difficult, to put it mildly, unless you're close to a heat source of some sort, due to the big difference between empty deep space and an object in deep space which is travelling under its own power. Most fighter designs in the real world focus on passive stealth (mostly neutralizing or minimizing radar reflections or IR dampening from the engines) because active jamming is detectable from far enough away that you've killed any advantages that it might pose. This means radar-absorbing materials, or angles which reflect radar waves away from ground-based receivers; note that the F-22's stealth properties are more from the bottom-front and behind with the way it's angled.

Plus, moving away from delta wing designs gives Kawamori a bit more freedom in designing planes, although you'll notice the VF-27 is more like a delta-wing design than the VF-25 is.

[Wildstar]

There are certainly some wacky existing modern designs to work with.

The A-12 Avenger






Tacit Blue...




X-48B




X-36

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Wildstar

There are certainly some wacky existing modern designs to work with.

Not as whcacked as you think, as the idea had been implemented as far as 60+ years go.

I present German's Horton IX: The world's first jet-propelled intercontinental stealth bomber (1945). Also the very aircraft later jet-powered flying wings are based upon (including the B-2 Spirit).



- Tak

[Wildstar]

Yep... we fought 50+ years of cold war with essentially end-o'-WW2 German weapons.

'course, it's handy now having computers to make 'em not crash.

[Daigo]

Originally Posted by grss1982

Actually the VF-25 has more of a SU/MiG with swing wings look than an F-14.

ALSO, its not VF-01, its VF-1.

I can go with something like a SU-27 look with the wings of an F-14. Although I'm having some trouble actually seeing a major difference between the VF-01 and the VF-25. But the SU-27 is still an old fighter too, from the 1970s. The VF-25 is definitely going for a retro look.

Kawamori stated in an interview that the reason the VF-25 looks the way it does is because he wanted to get away from real-world fighter designs. Ergo the more classic look of the plane with its variable wings.

I've read that too, although I don't completely understand why he would want that. My original guess was that the VF-01 lore wise is supposed to be more advanced than the F-22, but aesthetically it looks like spaceage F-14 with atomic engines. Kinda like the Delorian from Back to the Future I guess. At the time, it looked spaceage, and with all of that extra crap in the back, it looked futuristic. But today it looks retrofuturistic. Anyway, since that retrofuturistic look has been established, maybe they just want to stick with it even though it's outdated.

ReddyRedWolf, that's interesting. I didn't realize the YF-24 looked so much like the F-22. IMO, it looks better. Most new 5th gen fighters that are in development are being designed along the same lines as the F-22.

But anyway I like the VF-25, it's a hell of a lot nicer than the VF-19 which I thought looked awful...

Why not the VF-22? The Sturmvogel II was based on the mcdonell douglas yf-23 gray ghost/black widow which lost out to the F-22 in the ATF competition.

This design is pretty good actually. I think it looks quite unique, pretty distinct even compared to the YF-23. An evolution of this design would have been nice.



One big thing I wish they explored more, that they did a little in Macross Zero are flapping wings. The Anti-UN forces had fighters that had wings that were very flexible, had dynamic geometry, and could even flap. Flapping wings provides far superior maneuverability over their fixed-wing counterparts. Because of that I always thought the Anti-UN's SV-51 was far superior to the archaic looking VF-0A.

You can read more about aircraft with flapping wings here,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornithopter

[Ithekro]

Of course you do realize that the VF-1 was drawn in the early 1980s when "the" hot plan in the world was the F-14. As time has past the mech designs have sort of matched the main fighters of the world to keep up with the futuristic appearance.

The VF-25 breaks this trend for the retro look, partly becaues this is an homage 25 years of Macross series, but also because the technology of world fighters has not advanced as much since they designed the VF-19 and VF-22s a decade ago...because the quite frankly, the newest design to come out for the JSF and the F-35 doesn't have that "cool" look to it. And if you are going to have a plane that can transform into a mech, you need it to both look cool (marketing) and have the space for all the parts. Going retro in places but not really looking like any real fighter makes it possible to look cool without the plane being called outdated because the real world plane has been retired for generations by the time the mech in produced. Or in the VF-1's case...the F-14 was historically retired two years before what would be the First Space War of 2009.

Flapping wings means more stuff to go wrong in an already overly complex machine. Fixed or swept wings allow for the craft to glide even if it loses power. At last in gerwalk and plane modes.

I was thinking the VF-25 looked like a cross between an F-14 and an F-18 myself, but the Russian designs are probably closer to accurate...though with sweep wings as well.

(Tak that particular German design looks more like a fighter than a bomber. look at the person walking next to it for scale. I don't recall the Germans ever building a bomber type, just the prototype flying wing fighters (mostly prop versions, but eventually jets) before the war ended. A few unfinished fighters were captured if I recall from the Gotha plant. The Americans built Flying Wings after the war, but the project was scrapped before it could be fully proven and tested...including the Bomber types. The B-2 was based on the old American Flying Wing bomber...just with stealth designs and computer aided control so it won't fall out of the sky suddenly.)

On the other hand...if one looks at some of the really funky looking German prototype designs from the war...we've been building them as X-planes for 60 years and only recently ran out of new designs because stealth was not one of the plans in the 1940s.

[ChronoReverse]

Flapping wings won't provide that much anyway. Even modern inherently unstable designs have incredible maneuverability. Birds only do so well because they're so light and don't have to deal with supersonic speeds. What would be really nice is the deforming wing of the YF-21. That's the kind of thing that could yield interesting results.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by ChronoReverse

Flapping wings won't provide that much anyway. Even modern inherently unstable designs have incredible maneuverability. Birds only do so well because they're so light and don't have to deal with supersonic speeds. What would be really nice is the deforming wing of the YF-21. That's the kind of thing that could yield interesting results.

Too damn expensive they left it out of the VF-22 along with the BDI and BDC.

[Daigo]

Flapping wings means more stuff to go wrong in an already overly complex machine. Fixed or swept wings allow for the craft to glide even if it loses power. At last in gerwalk and plane modes.

Certainly. But that's an issue with technological limits. One of the great things about biology is that, anything we observe in nature, is in principle, possible to recreate. However, keep in mind, you are using this argument in context to an anime that has airplanes transforming into giant humanoid mechs. Compared to that, wings that flap is a lot easier to create than a plane that transforms into a mech that walks, runs, leaps, crawls, ducks, etc. Just the transformation sequence alone is prone to numerous problems and accidents. Not to mention flapping wings would be infinitely more useful.

Btw, gliding is entirely possible in a machine that has wings that flap. Just fix the wings in place, birds do it all the time.

Flapping may or may not be practical in a clunky fighter with no flexibility (in the same sense that transforming into a mech isn't practical), but it could be useful in other designs. Like for example in a robotic flyer. Or even better, a nanomorph, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanomorph

Flapping wings won't provide that much anyway. Even modern inherently unstable designs have incredible maneuverability. Birds only do so well because they're so light and don't have to deal with supersonic speeds.

I disagree, flapping and a flexible body is what makes animals far more maneuverable than airplanes ever will. Birds aren't the only ones that can fly. Pterosaurs were the largest animals to ever fly, and flew by flapping their wings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatzegopteryx Hatzegopteryx is probably the largest such animal. Flapping wings means a few more things. Vertical take off and landing (no animal that flies needs a runway), the ability to fly at very low speeds at low altitudes, greater energy efficiency at low speeds, and of course greater maneuverability. Compare that to say.... transforming into a humanoid mech. Technical issues aside, I don't see much point to it.

And like I said making an airplane flap its wings is easier to do than make it transform into a humanoid robot. And between the two, I would choose the former. The AntiUN's SV-51 could do both though, so all the better. But if you want to insist that flapping is too technologically challenging (even though there are some crude working examples in the real world), you have to prove that transforming into a humanoid mech isn't (of which there are no working examples). And on top of that, rationalize its questionable usefulness.

[Ithekro]

Depends on how the technology is used I suppose.
(Having not watched Macross Zero, I was trying ot picture what you meant by a flapping wing and all evidence suggested you meant like a bird for keeping aloft, which is highly impractical for a supersonic jet, and unneeded for a space superiority fighter if one imagines most combat will take place in space.)

What does this wing concept do for the SV-51?
In what way does it makes it superior to vectored thrust systems on fixed/sweeping wing designs of the later VF series fighters such as the VF-25? (or even just the VF-1).
How does this reflect on the VF-27?