2010-12-21, 08:53 | Link #3321 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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That's why people dislike Shirou's choice and the supposed theme of heavens feel. It's basically saying whatever the hell you want and don't worry about the consequences. |
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2010-12-21, 09:09 | Link #3322 | ||||||||
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 39
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Please stop blaming us for stuff that we're not responsible for. It takes two sides to have an argument, after all, and you, Flinch and Tenchi are every bit as "guilty" as me and Altima are of dragging topics into HF arguments and making sure they continue. Quote:
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Yeah, good example.... Quote:
No human being can fairly judge the lives of others and work out who is and who isn't worth saving, and if they try, it is very difficult to avoid falling off the slippery slope and killing people for trivial reasons or to achieve more mundane goals (like Kiritsugu attempting to win the Grail and wish for "world peace", even though that is probably not a good thing to wish for, even on a non corrupted Grail). Quote:
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But, prior to making that decision, he's not "in HF already". There are two ways it could go (either into HF, or not into HF), and prior to that point Shirou has acted exactly the same in the two different routes, with no difference in his thought processes or motivations (which includes feelings for Sakura). Does he suddenly retroactively change his feelings and intentions in those scenes depending on which option you pick?But, prior to making that decision, he's not "in HF already". There are two ways it could go (either into HF, or not into HF), and prior to that point Shirou has acted exactly the same in the two different routes, with no difference in his thought processes or motivations (which includes feelings for Sakura). Does he suddenly retroactively change his feelings and intentions in those scenes depending on which option you pick? Quote:
Shirou's intentions when refusing to kill Sakura the first time around (in MoS) was quite clear. If she went insane, he would kill her in order to prevent her killing others. Similarly, there's no indication that, had she genuinely been impossible to save in the final battle, he'd have just let her live and destroy the world. Indeed, he is quite willing to trace the weapon that Rin supposedly intends to use to kill her, with the obvious implication being that, were he indeed not able to save her, Rin would kill her instead. It's quite clear to me that, as far as Shirou was concerned, he would far rather Sakura die than her to remain Dark and destroy the world (unlike Rider, who would prefer Sakura to live no matter what), for her own good as well as for that of the world. However, he was never actually forced to make this decision, because there was always hope, and just because he doesn't know of another option at that moment, that doesn't mean that he won't discover one later on. |
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2010-12-21, 09:15 | Link #3323 | |||
Disabled By Request
Join Date: Jan 2010
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I, however, do agree with the Kiritsugu bit. If he hadn't lost himself to that ideology he probably would have saved more people, but not all cases are the same. But whatever, someone else can pick this up. |
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2010-12-21, 09:17 | Link #3324 | ||
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Ultimately all you can do is make a decision based on what you know, and if you don't feel you know enough, you try and find out as much as you can. Shirou didn't choose not to kill Sakura because he felt he didn't have all the information yet. He chose not to kill her simply because he loved her and didn't want to kill her, regardless of the consequences. I don't think Shirou not killing her the first time was a bad move because Shirou said right afterwards to Tohsaka that they were acting too quickly. He did feel that he didn't have all the information at that time. But the second time he decided that he would not kill Sakura even if it did endanger the lives of others, and he genuinely didn't believe that there was any other way. I'm not going to say that's wrong but I do think that's morally ambiguous. You said acting too quickly can be stupid but being indecisive can be equally stupid and that's exactly what Shirou did. When murders were talking place and Shirou was hearing about them, he knew of the connection to Sakura but didn't want to admit to it. He simply didn't want to confront it. Even if there was nothing he could do, he didn't know that there was nothing he can do (and we all know that there being nothing he can do has never stopped him from trying before). I'd say that's morally ambiguous aswell.
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Last edited by Haak; 2010-12-21 at 09:39. |
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2010-12-21, 10:09 | Link #3325 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Did you completely ignore the parts of the story where Rin asks Shirou several times what he would do if Sakura couldn't be saved. He replies every time that he would keep on chasing. The story couldn't have made it blatant enough that Shirou would never ever give up on Sakura. |
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2010-12-21, 11:35 | Link #3326 | ||||||||||
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 39
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Like I said, an argument always requires there to be two sides. Quote:
If you say so, I'm definitely leaving the argument to the ones that have something to say besides their opinions and "X is why X is Y". Quote:
Shirou may have saved more people in MoS than in HF (but, even that's not certain, because in the process of discarding Sakura he made it substantially more difficult for himself to win, because he also alienated all of his potential allies), but in general taking that attitude won't. HF Shirou's attitude (by which I mean "the attitude he took after the MoS decision") is a far more sensible one, in most cases. It just so happens that things were a lot worse than he had any reason to suspect (because there's no way he could have known that the shadow was caused by Sakura at that point), and thus killing her may well have saved more people (in the short-term, at least). Quote:
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There is a difference between "knowing" Sakura can't be saved (like Rin does in the church...) and actually knowing that she can't be saved. There is no way that a human being can ever truly make that decision, but nevertheless it's clear from his actions in HF that, were Shirou forced to make the choice between killing Sakura and allowing her to destroy the world, he would have killed her. |
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2010-12-21, 11:56 | Link #3327 | |||||
Me, An Intellectual
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Location: UK
Age: 33
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2010-12-21, 12:07 | Link #3328 | ||
Casting a spell on you...
Graphic Designer
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There is already moral ambiguity in the world of magi. Look, the 4th War killed many children and innocents and yet there was no magi who stood up and said, "This isn't worth it." Even Rin didn't oppose it, and Saber who saw such atrocities, still saw fit to seek the Grail, but for some reason, Shirou is seen like a bad person to not give up on someone who should have been saved long ago. Sorry, but like DragoZERO said, moral ambiguity doesn't matter at this point. Magi, the Grail War, everything has already ruined a good deal of lives in Fuyuki, and by even condoning this contest for even one second, all people involved have blood on their hands. In that vein, Shirou and Sakura, who cared little for this war, who never wished for it in the first place, are the least liable and yet they are ironically judged the harshest. The best way to stop innocents from potentially dying? Destroy the Great Grail. But the best people for that job, were entirely set on fighting this pointless battle that in the end, had no benefit at all. Like I said, I loathe when the weak are crushed when it could entirely be avoided. I think I have that right. If it was truly hopeless, I would most likely bitterly agree. That's all I have to say on this. Since I pretty much won't ever agree to this bout of unfounded "pragmatism". Quote:
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2010-12-21, 12:13 | Link #3329 | |||||
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 39
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A better example, actually, is choosing between Fate and UBW. The difference there has nothing to do with Shirou's feelings for Rin (he saves her in both cases), it's just a matter of whether he reflexively uses a command spell, or simply doesn't notice in time. The final choice to get on HF is, perhaps, a little more directly linked to his feelings for Sakura (IIRC), but at the same time it's nothing that he wouldn't do for a close friend, and there's no doubt that even outside HF Sakura is a close friend of his. Plus, in order to get that choice, you have to make a decision which has nothing whatsoever to do with his feelings for Sakura (making another side-dish), and thus it's quite possible that a Shirou who loves Sakura dearly could end up on Fate or UBW because he chose not to do that.... Quote:
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2010-12-21, 12:26 | Link #3331 |
Onii-chan~
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If killing someone saves lives, is it really cold-blooded?
Hypothetical Scenario: I have a 40MT nuke in the center of LA. The blast will destroy a large portion of the city, and the fallout will likely kill everyone else. I intend to use it. Is it wrong to kill me?
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2010-12-21, 12:27 | Link #3332 | |||
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Age: 39
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But killing Sakura at that point wouldn't have saved lives (well, except for Shinji, Kotomine and Zouken, whose lives I would quite gladly trade for Sakura's), even if Shirou could have succeeded. Quote:
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2010-12-21, 12:35 | Link #3333 | ||
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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2010-12-21, 13:10 | Link #3335 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA
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I just can't keep up. |
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2010-12-21, 13:19 | Link #3337 |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Well you could argue he wouldn't have come to a decision to destroy the Holy grail even if it wasn't tainted, in the other routes, but yeah, even Ilya tried to destroy it. So my point stands.
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2010-12-21, 14:07 | Link #3338 | |||
Spoilaphobic
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 37
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Here is a question, I have been meaning to ask. What did Avalon do to Gil's Enuma Elish (Ea's attack). Did it send it back to him, deflect, or something else? I was meaning to go to that scene myself, but holidays are more demanding than I had thought they'd be. [/topicchange]
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2010-12-21, 14:20 | Link #3339 | ||
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Age: 39
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fate/stay night, visual novel |
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