(CR) Legend of the Galactic Heroes remake

[Haak]

Episode 5

Roflmao. Chief Sithole.

I wasn't a fan of this episode if I'm honest. The weird reactions of the Republic's politics just seemed a bit too removed from reality at times. If it were real life, i doubt Jessica would've managed to stay in the spotlight for as long as she had. Also pretty weird how Yang managed to get to her before guards despite the guards literally being right there.

It's also weird how blase Yang, Rebecca and the kid are about everything. Yang and Rebecca are nearly assassinated in broad daylight and they just part ways like nothing happened when at that point they should either be running to the police or consider going on the run. Instead they just talk about war casualties (and for the record I thought Yang's response to Rebecca's commentary was ridiculously banal and weirdly contradictory to what he was thinking during that politicians speech). No discussion takes place on what just happened and the repercussions thereafter despite the severity of the event. They just part ways and Yang goes home to eat dinner like it's an everyday occurrence. And it doesn't stop there either: Then we get treated to a hilariously toothless attempt at a mob lynching that is dispersed with a few high pressure water sprinklers (with seemingly laser guided accuracy) and Yang and the kid once again treat it like it's no big deal despite the damage they caused. No attempted report to the police or anything. Just business as usual. You're a shite guardian Yang. You shouldn't be looking after anyone.

What is this bizarre authoritarian political atmosphere that allows groups to be powerful enough to orchestrate attempted assassinations through car accidents and yet at the same time toothless enough to be foiled by water guns? And what is with these characters just not giving a shit? If it was just Yang then that would be one thing but it isn't even just him.

I don't want to keep making comparisons to Gundam The Origin but at least that show goes through the effort to show the effects persistent political harassment can have on people's lives.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Haak

What is this bizarre authoritarian political atmosphere that allows groups to be powerful enough to orchestrate attempted assassinations through car accidents and yet at the same time toothless enough to be foiled by water guns? And what is with these characters just not giving a shit? If it was just Yang then that would be one thing but it isn't even just him.

Bizarre? Well yes, it is. Unrealistic? If only. That is the political atmosphere we have in my country, for example. Over here by now the government (deeply corrupt and at this point almost openly fascist) are doing things a lot more openly than Trunicht's faction - in rhetorics, intimidation of citizens and use of force against people who oppose them, and yet most people continue to "not give a shit". Either because they're afraid to speak up (things reached the point where having the wrong opinion may very well cost you your job) or because they genuinely don't care. They have their day to day lives to live, they say you should just keep a low profile and do what you're told you'll be OK, they say the government may step out of the line "every now and then" but at least they "keep the order" and "protect the people"... a lot of them are barely even aware what's really happening because they avoid politics, or consume government-sanctioned media that is of course pure propaganda. And so the government keeps getting re-elected and keeps getting (and giving itself) more and more power. (Really, this would be almost fascinating to watch if it wasn't the country I happen to live in. In a way it still is.)

Originally Posted by Haak

I don't want to keep making comparisons to Gundam The Origin but at least that show goes through the effort to show the effects persistent political harassment can have on people's lives.

Different cultures and individual decisions aside, for the most part, persistent political harrassment may very well make the population apathetic. It definitely does so over here. Because most of the time the system is made so that you can't win, or if you do they'll make you pay in other ways; and after getting slapped down for the nth time most people lose the will to jump back into the fray. And in the meanwhile it's not like terrible things happen constantly (or rather, in a way that you realize) - you have your daily life to live, job to do, salary to earn, rent to pay, family and friends to take care of. Most people don't have the strength or even the will to struggle constantly, and after a long enough time even the most persistent ones tend to give up. Reality is not always as dramatic as one would perhaps like it to be.

[Haak]

Sorry but I don't think any of that applies to Yang et al. He's not trying keeping his head down - he's doing the exact opposite. Rebecca is the same.

And moreover it's much easier to not give a shit when you haven't been targeted. Again, that kind of apathy doesn't quite apply to Yang et al who have already gone through what would be traumatic stuff for anyone else and are themselves pretty political already.

And even if they decided that they should just keep their heads down, the story still presents it like it's nothing worth grieving over. Yang, Rebecca and the kid are seemingly totally unfazed by it all. That's still abnormal.

And even then I still just find it weird how this group can go from flagrant assassination through a traffic accident to being foiled by water guns.

But I am sorry to hear about your country's state of affairs. That sounds rough.

[kuromitsu]

Yang et al are giving a shit, but what do you expect them to do at this point? They could be panicking, I guess, but none are the type, so... (It's Jessica, btw.)

(Thanks - we're trying to do something about it, but as I wrote above... :/ )

[Haak]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

(It's Jessica, btw.)

Crap, you saw that before I could edit it. Now I must live with the shame.

[4th Dimension]

It's down to what kind of personality Yang has. He is DEFINITELY not the force of personality, take charge, tilt at windmills type of guy. If asked, he will not back down from his views, and if you want him he can give you a nice lecture on history of democracy and how they slide into totalitarianism one step at a time, but he is simply not the kind of person to start fights both intellectual or physical.

Which you even see in the previous episodes. He is pretty certain that if they don't change their approach, their fleet will get clobbered. And he does politelly propose alternative scenario to what is being used. Once he is turned down, he doesn't get emotional, he doesn't simply keep on pushing his views on others and like. He accepts that those above him have made their decision and that he has done his duty in warning them and plans what to do if his dire predictions do happen.

As I say, at the end of the day, he is a university history professor at heart, who just got basically peer and superior pressured into command track.

As for the "accident", yeah he is blazee seemingly about it. But I don't think we are told that he didn't report it. Allthough given how automated their transportation is, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't automatic, since even the highway knew something strange was happening.
And in this case if powers that be want to cover it up, it will just be a case of drunk irresponsable driver doing something, an accident. After all, who would target the new hero on the day of the mourning really.

And the kid does give him shit if I remember about standing out and such. But decides to support him anyway.

[pervypig]

If Reinhart had changed places with Yang in the FPA, it is not hard to imagine what kind of ending the novel might have had. Even if Reinhart isn't as well-versed in history as Yang, he at least won't take any shit from politicians, elected by the people or otherwise. And Yang, being the passive dude he is, probably won't ever make it to the top of the empire... or any place of authority, for that matter.

Well, I know i'm not supposed to spoil it all for people who haven't watched the 1st LoGH adaptation or read the book, but Reinhart's ideals aren't that far off from Yang's in that he didn't wish to reign as a dictator, but only to set some order to the universe - so that crap like having your sister send off as a concubine of the emperor with you having no say at all doesn't have to happen again.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by pervypig

If Reinhart had changed places with Yang in the FPA, it is not hard to imagine what kind of ending the novel might have had.

Reinhart gets impatient with the slow, bureaucratic FPA, does something stupid, and dies before accomplishing anything?

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by pervypig

If Reinhart had changed places with Yang in the FPA, it is not hard to imagine what kind of ending the novel might have had. Even if Reinhart isn't as well-versed in history as Yang, he at least won't take any shit from politicians, elected by the people or otherwise. And Yang, being the passive dude he is, probably won't ever make it to the top of the empire... or any place of authority, for that matter.

Well, I know i'm not supposed to spoil it all for people who haven't watched the 1st LoGH adaptation or read the book, but Reinhart's ideals aren't that far off from Yang's in that he didn't wish to reign as a dictator, but only to set some order to the universe - so that crap like having your sister send off as a concubine of the emperor with you having no say at all doesn't have to happen again.

If Reinhart changed place with Yang, he would change democratic state (if nationalistic, which is pretty common during war) into totality. In what way that would be good thing?

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by pervypig

he at least won't take any shit from politicians, elected by the people or otherwise.

See, what you are describing is not the rule of the people on which democracy is based, but autocracy.

Originally Posted by pervypig

Yang's in that he didn't wish to reign as a dictator, but only to set some order to the universe

And that is how autocracy and dictatorship starts. Things are tough at that moment, people are scared, the system as is seems to not be working, and then some charismatic and seemingly smart or popular guy appears and promisses that he'll solve the ills of the society if they just let him do as he pleases.

Which is what Yang pretty much talks about in the last? episode. Basically no dictatorship ever started without at least tacit and often pretty strong support from the people at the time.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

And that is how autocracy and dictatorship starts. Things are tough at that moment, people are scared, the system as is seems to not be working, and then some charismatic and seemingly smart or popular guy appears and promisses that he'll solve the ills of the society if they just let him do as he pleases.

Which is exactly how the original emperor got to power

[Kanon]

If Reinhard had been born in the FPA, he would have believed in democracy and done nothing because his sister would have never been sold to some powerful old fart. What happened to his sister and all the injustices the people suffer from in the Empire are what gave birth to his thirst for power. Both Reinhard and Yang were shaped by the societies they grew up in. You can't just switch them around.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by Dextro

Which is exactly how the original emperor got to power

Which is the point I was making

[pervypig]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Reinhart gets impatient with the slow, bureaucratic FPA, does something stupid, and dies before accomplishing anything?

With his insane luck? Nah. Guy escaped assassination attempt umpteenth time before even becoming a captain for the imperial navy. It isn't in this series, but go check it out.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

If Reinhart changed place with Yang, he would change democratic state (if nationalistic, which is pretty common during war) into totality. In what way that would be good thing?

Reinhart did NOT want to be an autocrat; Watch the last ep of the 1st LoGH to find out. Besides, if you can condone extremism for democratic states during war-time, I don't see why you can't do the same for benevolent tyranny during war-time too.

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

See, what you are describing is not the rule of the people on which democracy is based, but autocracy.

And that is how autocracy and dictatorship starts. Things are tough at that moment, people are scared, the system as is seems to not be working, and then some charismatic and seemingly smart or popular guy appears and promisses that he'll solve the ills of the society if they just let him do as he pleases.

Which is what Yang pretty much talks about in the last? episode. Basically no dictatorship ever started without at least tacit and often pretty strong support from the people at the time.

Before we begin, let's get one thing straight: I have NEVER in any of my posts advocated autocracy for Yang or Reinhard. What I have been trying to point out is that no matter which society they were living in, Yang would have remained passively stating his opinion in the name of an unrealistic 'ideal' of democracy, which doesn't exist any where in the universe, whereas Reinhart is the go-getter, who one way or another would get things done.

To begin with, let's take a look at what Yang and Reinhard had experienced respectively just from the current show so far:

Yang - Enrolled into military academy cos he needed to pay school fees. Rose in rank because of achievements. Made friends while in military, fell in love with fiancee of friend but kept quiet about it. Said friend died in a war through the ineptness of the commander. (Here here's the part that I had the most gripes about) Disapprove of warmongering politician's speech by not clapping, EXPLICITLY refusing to stand and clap when told to do so. Friend's fiancee made a statement against said politician, he got involved by pulling her away - shortly after BOTH of them are targeted for attack, and then war factions attack his house after - respond by giving them a shower. (To be fair, we aren't shown anything else, but that's about it in summary)

Reinhard - Born in noble house, made friends with Kircheis who is a commoner (which shows that he doesn't really care about status), sister gets "sold" off to be a concubine of the emperor, vows to bring the system down, spend the next decade or so proving himself through the corrupt and decadent imperial army that he can make it to the top through his merit alone.

Tell me honestly, who do you root for? It isn't even about the society that they are brought up in any more, but their character. And the point I had been trying to drive was that, IF Reinhard was the guy who got his friend killed in FPA's army and his fiancee's life put to risk, his house vandalized, you bet he would have made some guys cry bloody tears - all within the system of democracy he is in.

Naturally, there will be people who would disagree and say that:"But that ain't democratic, no?". Arguably, the FPA in the period we are talking about now is in a war-mongering phase when civil-rights and liberties are not exactly all quite there - Yang's instructor pretty much even told him: "The Navy won't let you go no matter what you do.", which you can also take with multiple meanings. In this situation, isn't Yang's passivity too far a cry from his stated:"people are responsible for the tyrants they put above themselves"?

Originally Posted by Kanon

If Reinhard had been born in the FPA, he would have believed in democracy and done nothing because his sister would have never been sold to some powerful old fart. What happened to his sister and all the injustices the people suffer from in the Empire are what gave birth to his thirst for power. Both Reinhard and Yang were shaped by the societies they grew up in. You can't just switch them around.

This is the only statement that I agree with, but even so, not completely, because even in democratic societies, crap still happens (in fact majority of the time you see it reported, it is in democratic ones). So Reinhard might get his sister kidnapped sold off to some senator as a plaything? I don't know if it plays out like that, but the result would definitely be very different from what Yang would have done.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by pervypig

Reinhart did NOT want to be an autocrat; Watch the last ep of the 1st LoGH to find out. Besides, if you can condone extremism for democratic states during war-time, I don't see why you can't do the same for benevolent tyranny during war-time too.

I don't condone extremism. I was talking about nationalistic moods not extremist actions, even if it's related. Mind you, that extremist actions were completely ilegal and not sanctioned. If Trunicht were autocrat he wouldn't even have to hide it and he would be imune any kind of eventual punishment.

Which is another thing. All that's needed to remove Trunich from his place is not elect him again, or just wait until police or secret services find proof conecting him to extremist groups, but I dare you, try remove tyrant, benevolent or not.

[pervypig]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I don't condone extremism. I was talking about nationalistic moods not extremist actions, even if it's related. Mind you, that extremist actions were completely ilegal and not sanctioned. If Trunicht were autocrat he wouldn't even have to hide it and he would be imune any kind of eventual punishment.

Which is another thing. All that's needed to remove Trunich from his place is not elect him again, or just wait until police or secret services find proof conecting him to extremist groups, but I dare you, try remove tyrant, benevolent or not.

The same could be said of wartime democracies which give politicians overarching authorities to deal with "subversive" activities in the name of national security. We can go on and on about this, which is why I have already stated that this had nothing to do with the societies they are in, but how they react to it.

And the way Yang is reacting isn't really very representative of what he claims as his ideal; since like you said, Trunich is a leader the people voted in, why isn't Yang actively lobbying for his resignation, putting his war hero status to good use? I'm no less unaware of the complications in trying to get things done in a bureaucracy, but smear campaign costs only money and backing (oh, I forgot, yangs a beggar, guess he must go seduce some rich broad then)

You can compare him with Reinhard who, despite being a noble himself, choose to work his arse upthe corrupt imperial system. Who is more active?

[Tenzen12]

Exactly, but that's not what happens here. Trunich isn't trying became dictator (at least not yet) and put lot of effort keep his popularity to get elected again. But as long as he doesn't try usurp powerm using power against him is wrong choice, neither citizens nor soldiers should be allowed take law into own hands.

[pervypig]

Somehow, I'm getting some batsman vs super man vibe from this discussion, where one denies the existence of the other over equally valid reasons... well, I still think that Reinhard would have made a better leader for the FPA without resorting to converting it into a dictatorship anyway.

[Tenzen12]

that's possible. Of course it's also because Yang is not leader in first place. In other hand I doubt Reinhardt is half as good historian.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by pervypig

Before we begin, let's get one thing straight: I have NEVER in any of my posts advocated autocracy for Yang or Reinhard. What I have been trying to point out is that no matter which society they were living in, Yang would have remained passively stating his opinion in the name of an unrealistic 'ideal' of democracy, which doesn't exist any where in the universe, whereas Reinhart is the go-getter, who one way or another would get things done.

Well, that's just Yang for you. He is not that type of "go-getter"because history teaches him what happens ALL TOO OFTEN with the ones that are effective. He on the other hand, seems to be a believer that society should right it's wrongs rather than to expect some great leader fix all that for them.

This talk of action is starting to remind me of a similar militaristic "man of action" from Foundation...

And for one I LIKE Yang for that. He does not have the "solution" for society's wrongs of an angry teenager, but takes the long view from the stuffy chair of history. And still, despite all the examples of failures of democracy, including the "recent" one (which calls itself Empire now) he is still a believer in it's ideals. And that informs his actions.

Originally Posted by pervypig

Tell me honestly, who do you root for? It isn't even about the society that they are brought up in any more, but their character. And the point I had been trying to drive was that, IF Reinhard was the guy who got his friend killed in FPA's army and his fiancee's life put to risk, his house vandalized, you bet he would have made some guys cry bloody tears - all within the system of democracy he is in.

Except you can't do that within democratic system, without breaking it's implied or official rules. For one anyone to blame for the fiasco of the battle, meaning people in command, is probably dead. And even were they alive, it's not up to some lower level officer, even if he is the hero to pass judgement on his superiors. The way system works is that the HQ will do an inquiry, Yang will give his statement about what happened, there will be deliberations and eventual punishment, if there is any, will be down to the HQ.

The same goes for other things. There are services and sections of government that should be in charge of those actions. Also, I'm still not sure how is Yang supposed to "make them cry bloody tears" to a dozen lynchers, most of which seem to have military training. I guess a "go-geter" could "go-get" himself clubbed and his house torched. And no, depending on how their law is structured, Yang might not even be allowed to just attack them for "trespassing".

Originally Posted by pervypig

Naturally, there will be people who would disagree and say that:"But that ain't democratic, no?". Arguably, the FPA in the period we are talking about now is in a war-mongering phase when civil-rights and liberties are not exactly all quite there - Yang's instructor pretty much even told him: "The Navy won't let you go no matter what you do.", which you can also take with multiple meanings.

What he told him is not really about breaking the right and liberties. It's the normal you giving an oath, and military coming to collect on it in the case of war.

Originally Posted by pervypig

In this situation, isn't Yang's passivity too far a cry from his stated:"people are responsible for the tyrants they put above themselves"?

The key word here is PEOPLE. Not individuals. The entire society. There are political opponents Mr. T has, and to stop him it just takes enough people voting against him.

That being said, have you considered that Mr. T might also consider himself in the RIGHT? That he too might have a convenient sob-story about, let's say, his planet being done bad things by the Imperials, and now he is gonna make sure "they cry tears of blood". And therefore he will do EVERYTHING in his power so that the lily livered politicians which might be up for a peace or a cease fire with the Empire never do something that "cowardly". So he is "getting things done" by carefully cracking down on those who are obvious traitors to their freedoms and is riling up the people for what's really at stake, freedom for all subjects of the Empire, weather they like it or not.

Also it's quite possible that the majority quite likes what he is saying, and even might at least tacitly support or turn blind eye to groups of "concerned citizens" dealing with "cowards and traitors". Which means, until the masses wake up to the issues there is really no way to remove T because he IS the will of the people. And no Yang is simply not a politico to fight that kind of fight. He is there to defend the Alliance from EXTERNAL enemies, not internal issues.