Fate/ Series Q&A

[maximilianjenus]

It also comes out as dumb, it's explained to him that saber is a legendary hero, so a nobody trying to protect a legendary hero comes out as someone really stupid.

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, that is just part of Shirou's fundamental character. He has no sense of self-preservation and thinks he should protect everyone. It just comes across a bit better in the VN than in the anime, plus the VN has two other routes to develop his character further in.

[Brother Coa]

To quote:

sexist, Saber shouldn't fight because she's a girl, trying to protect a legendary hero, no sense of self-preservation and thinks he should protect everyone

This is all true for him, this is his character overall. I think that everyone got this part of him wrong, this is how I see him with this ideals:

Spoiler for Shirou's character:

Shirou is in fact a solder.
Solders are people who have no sense of self preservation as they train to fight and they mostly die when they go to war. Solders are men who protect everyone else and put their lives on the line for the ones who are behind them ( be it their family or their nation or some other people ). Regarding legendary hero thing - solders in war always put their lives on the line. Never-mind if it's a general, a hero or ordinary civilian. Regarding sexism - major part of military ( even today ) is dominated by males, who often see females as object to be protected and to be put aside war and anything to have part with it ( hence why women before had to hide their identity and act as men to fight in a war ).

So Shirou to me is ideal picture of how a solder should be, and I also see the 3 routes of Fate like this: to uphold duty ( Fate ), what is duty? ( UBW ) and is duty to the people more important then your loved ones? ( HF )

This is why I find it funny and ironic that in Fate he actually hate anything military related ( scene where Taiga show him military posters that he later use to defend himself from Lancer ).

Please correct me if I am wrong about this.

[Klashikari]

I disagree.
A soldier would carry out their duty as it is their purpose, even if it means it would go against their own ideals. Soldiers also have self preservation instinct exactly because they have to carry out their duty, and you ain't gonna do anything if you are a corpse (unless that duty requires you to fall in battle).

Shirou carries out an ideal that is fundamentally deep rooted, which is what he believes is right, without actually having any circumstances that force him to carry it out. He has no obligation to play the hero at all, let alone risk his life in a war like that.
If Shirou was -really- a soldier, HF wouldn't happen the way it did.

[sona-nyl]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

To quote:



This is all true for him, this is his character overall. I think that everyone got this part of him wrong, this is how I see him with this ideals:

Spoiler for Shirou's character:

Shirou is in fact a solder.
Solders are people who have no sense of self preservation as they train to fight and they mostly die when they go to war. Solders are men who protect everyone else and put their lives on the line for the ones who are behind them ( be it their family or their nation or some other people ). Regarding legendary hero thing - solders in war always put their lives on the line. Never-mind if it's a general, a hero or ordinary civilian. Regarding sexism - major part of military ( even today ) is dominated by males, who often see females as object to be protected and to be put aside war and anything to have part with it ( hence why women before had to hide their identity and act as men to fight in a war ).

So Shirou to me is ideal picture of how a solder should be, and I also see the 3 routes of Fate like this: to uphold duty ( Fate ), what is duty? ( UBW ) and is duty to the people more important then your loved ones? ( HF )

This is why I find it funny and ironic that in Fate he actually hate anything military related ( scene where Taiga show him military posters that he later use to defend himself from Lancer ).

Please correct me if I am wrong about this.

Yeah you're wrong. As I have been trying to say several times when this came up both in this thread and the other one. Shirou saying stuff like "Girl's shouldn't Fight" doesn't actually have anything to do with his character. It wasn't added because of Shirou at all. It was added to make Saber's romance less threatening.

Nasu: Typical Urobuchi... I really can't pull the wool over your eyes... I intended to take that to the grave with me, but I guess this 10-year anniversary is a good place to talk about it. Just like Urobuchi-san said, it's difficult to call the relationship between Shirou and Saber a relationship between a man and a woman. Saber has fought for a long time as the ruler of Britain, but then turned into a girl all of a sudden and fell in love with Shirou. It's pretty ridiculous when you think about it. But I really wanted to push it towards that sort of boy-meets-girl story. So as a last resort, I had Shirou continually say things to her like "But you're a girl," and "Girls aren't supposed to fight," in order to remind the users that "she is really a girl." It's like the author's actually the one trying to convince Saber that she's a girl... I feel like I could have written it a lot better now, but that was the best I could do at the time.

If sexism (not him wanting to protect people) was meant to be an important part of Shirou's character surely Nasu would have said so instead of basically confirming that Shirou is in fact behaving OOC and that it jars badly with the rest of the VN.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

A soldier would carry out their duty as it is their purpose, even if it means it would go against their own ideals.

This is not true, solders would never follow order they wouldn't find put with their ideals ( example: the massacre of innocent civilians ) . Nor will their commanders gave them order like that, there are tons of example of this in history.
In short, not all solders have to follow orders to be one. Sometimes they need to do the right thing as well. Shirou is actually a mix of solder and knight.

Soldiers also have self preservation instinct exactly because they have to carry out their duty, and you ain't gonna do anything if you are a corpse (unless that duty requires you to fall in battle).

This is especially not true, solders are people who are ready to die for their ideals. Anything less is not a solder. Everyone of them knows that once you enter service there is a good chance you will die sooner or later. Even if you try your best to survive to carry out your duty there is nothing to guarantee that you will survive long enough to execute it. All solders today know this, the ones in the past especially ( WW1 is most notable ).

Shirou carries out an ideal that is fundamentally deep rooted, which is what he believes is right, without actually having any circumstances that force him to carry it out. He has no obligation to play the hero at all, let alone risk his life in a war like that.

That is because Kiritsugu thought him that way. Because he want to live up to his father's wish he took that ideal and carried it out even if he didn't had to do. In Fate ( overall not route ) he actually was waiting for a day that he will execute them,

If Shirou was -really- a soldier, HF wouldn't happen the way it did.

It did actually, but it counts as bad ending.
Anyway, in HF the point is that he throw away his ideals for someone that he care about. In other words - he throw away Kiritsugu's wish, stopped being a solder and became someone else.

[Sansker]

In any case the sentence could be consider sexist. “Girls shouldn’t fight” Since it assumes that Saber, as a girl, should not be a fighter. It could be seen that way.

Then author says himself that he doesn’t see Saber as a girl and that thing was made to remember the audience she is a girl. You know, in case the character design, the voice acting and the sex scenes were a bit too subtle. Is like he is trying to fix a problem that isn’t there in the first place. He even address that the actual problem isn’t Saber, is Shirou himself since he is so pathetic compare with Saber that she falling for him sounds a bit ridiculous.

[sona-nyl]

No you're misunderstanding when Nasu wrote the Fate route Saber had in fact been a man just a short time before. She was gender swapped when fate became a VN and then on top of that Nasu wanted to write a traditional girl-meets-boy romance.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

This is not true, solders would never follow order they wouldn't find put with their ideals ( example: the massacre of innocent civilians ) . Nor will their commanders gave them order like that, there are tons of example of this in history.
In short, not all solders have to follow orders to be one. Sometimes they need to do the right thing as well. Shirou is actually a mix of solder and knight.

...except massacres, rapes etc were done by soldiers many times in history, be it due to orders or not.
It isn't like no soldiers would question their superiors' orders, but your statement put them on a pedestal despite history has shown atrocities hardly backing your claim.

Unless you are really telling me that every german soldiers felt no remorse against the jews during WWII, which is far fetched at best. Many of them were forced to follow foolish/inhumane orders, and that made them soldiers as it was for the interest of their country (supposedly).

There are cases of insubordination and desertions when Soldiers can't follow orders. And what happens? Martial court and the likes. Soldiers are "not supposed" to disobey, except rare circumstances.

This is especially not true, solders are people who are ready to die for their ideals. Anything less is not a solder. Everyone of them knows that once you enter service there is a good chance you will die sooner or later. Even if you try your best to survive to carry out your duty there is nothing to guarantee that you will survive long enough to execute it. All solders today know this, the ones in the past especially ( WW1 is most notable ).

There is a difference between being ready to die, and having no sense of self preservation. The former indicate they are fine if they are KIA, but the latter means they are basically suicidal and won't take opportunity to save themselves or their companions, which is not true at all.

Self preservation is a natural part of a soldier. Even if everyone knew they are often "pawns" on a chessboard with little chance to come back home alive, they aren't there to be slaugheterd. Unless you are telling me that everyone would act like Kamikaze.

That is because Kiritsugu thought him that way. Because he want to live up to his father's wish he took that ideal and carried it out even if he didn't had to do. In Fate ( overall not route ) he actually was waiting for a day that he will execute them,

He has no obligation whatsoever. Kiritsugu only expressed his dream, end of the story.
Shirou was inspired and said he would do that on his stead. There is no duty behind that, save ideal.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I disagree.
A soldier would carry out their duty as it is their purpose, even if it means it would go against their own ideals. Soldiers also have self preservation instinct exactly because they have to carry out their duty, and you ain't gonna do anything if you are a corpse (unless that duty requires you to fall in battle).

Shirou carries out an ideal that is fundamentally deep rooted, which is what he believes is right, without actually having any circumstances that force him to carry it out. He has no obligation to play the hero at all, let alone risk his life in a war like that.
If Shirou was -really- a soldier, HF wouldn't happen the way it did.

Yeah, Shirou isn't a soldier. Soldiers are more dedicated to a system or government rather than to protecting people (it's rare in the modern age that losing a war will result in the outright death of the people). I guess he would be closer to something like the International Brigades, fighting for an ideal rather than for the government or because of duty, but even then he dislikes killing on a fundamental level.

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

This is not true, solders would never follow order they wouldn't find put with their ideals ( example: the massacre of innocent civilians ) . Nor will their commanders gave them order like that, there are tons of example of this in history.

History doesn't bear this out at all.

In short, not all solders have to follow orders to be one. Sometimes they need to do the right thing as well. Shirou is actually a mix of solder and knight.

I don't think there is that much evidence of soldiers being people who try to do the right thing....

This is especially not true, solders are people who are ready to die for their ideals. Anything less is not a solder. Everyone of them knows that once you enter service there is a good chance you will die sooner or later. Even if you try your best to survive to carry out your duty there is nothing to guarantee that you will survive long enough to execute it. All solders today know this, the ones in the past especially ( WW1 is most notable ).

Well, a soldier should try to survive, but the same logic applies to Shirou, probably more so. If he dies he can't save anyone....

But, still, I don't think soldiers are there to die for their ideals, mostly. Mostly they're there because the government pays them to be....

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Usami_Haru

No you're misunderstanding when Nasu wrote the Fate route Saber had in fact been a man just a short time before. She was gender swapped when fate became a VN and then on top of that Nasu wanted to write a traditional girl-meets-boy romance.

I know that. I have seen Fate/Prototype. But my point stands. He is trying to say that the character is defined by its gender, and that is not the mark of a good character. He changed the genders and expected to have the same story without realizing he had change the roles of these stories usually work. The girl here is the mysterious, powerful and charming knight and the boy is the helpless, naive and need to be rescue damsel. If he saw a problem there, why did he change the genders in the first place? I know marketing but it didn’t help the story.

So keeping that in mind he tries to reverse the roles Saber and Shirou have, without changing the form the characters are set. So we end with that weird notion Shirou is he hero and Saber the romance interest. So, when the author notices the mess he just created tries to fix it, by saying stuff that just don’t come good out of a character which is say to be weak and untalented for combat. Is almost like a parody of the idea but he stays with it, refusing to let go like a man who stars a car, puts on a blindfold and accelerates to top speed. Is just not a good idea but somehow they reach their destination. At least that is how I see it. There aren't really right answers since some people might see it different. I just say that to me, the problem is Shirou and not Saber, in this "boy meets girl" story.

[sona-nyl]

I don't understand what you're arguing about. I mean Nasu is saying exactly what you are saying. That he should have written them as the people they were instead of forcing them into roles they didn't fit.

[Sansker]

Just saying: He change roles and then went ahead and try to play it safe. Is that what bothers me more than anything. Also what I argue is his notion that Saber is the one who needs to be change in to a “girl” while Shirou is pretty much ok as he is. And I don’t think is for the best. Also is not just in Fate but in the other routes, Shirou’s character doesn’t come right to me. So I might be a bit opinionated when it comes down to him.

[Stanfoo]

Is it known as to what the extent of Avalon's healing capabilities are?

Kirei demolished Kiritsugu's heart, killing him, but Kiritsugu was quickly revived by Avalon. At the end of their fight, if the black keys that Kirei threw managed to land and do fatal damage to Kiritsugu's brain, would Avalon have regenerated him like it did his heart?

Someone claimed that if the person died from brain damage, Avalon wouldn't be able to revive him.

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, they can't be infinite, because Shirou manages to die several times in FSN when Saber is still around. I would imagine an instantly-fatal wound would still kill you, but anything else could probably be healed.

[Gx Hero]

I have a question concerning the summoning of epic spirits for the grail war. In episode 8 of the original series it is stated that a epic spirit is summoned based on the personality of the one who summons it. However in fate/ zero there seems to be a contradiction to this as you need a piece of said epic hero to summon a epic spirit.

My question is if the two ways of determine what sort of epic spirit that is summoned is by first having an item that belonged to said epic spirit, or that those without said item will get a servant based on their personality.

[GDB]

You don't need a relic (the item that calls a particular hero, like Avalon) to summon them, the relic just ensures that you get a particular hero. If you don't have a relic, then you get one that matches your personality.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Gx Hero

I have a question concerning the summoning of epic spirits for the grail war. In episode 8 of the original series it is stated that a epic spirit is summoned based on the personality of the one who summons it. However in fate/ zero there seems to be a contradiction to this as you need a piece of said epic hero to summon a epic spirit.

My question is if the two ways of determine what sort of epic spirit that is summoned is by first having an item that belonged to said epic spirit, or that those without said item will get a servant based on their personality.

Originally Posted by GDB

You don't need a relic (the item that calls a particular hero, like Avalon) to summon them, the relic just ensures that you get a particular hero. If you don't have a relic, then you get one that matches your personality.

An example of this is Ryūnosuke summoning Caster without the use of a relic. They are the pair in Fate/Zero which are best suited to each other.

[Rising Dragon]

In the original novel, Kariya acquires Lancelot without the use of a relic, though in the anime Zouken mentions acquiring one.

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, we can never actually say for certain no relic is used, but I do not think using a relic is a requirement to summon a servant.