Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[Aquaman OS]

I agree. A betrayal at that point would have made perfect had the used the obvious set up of the BK coming to the conclusion that Zero was using them as his own personal army in his bid for the throne and intended to Order 66 them once he was in. The evidence was there, he had been meeting Suzaku in secret, suddenly adding otherwise loyal Britannian's to their cause (Rolo, Jeremiah and Guilford) and spending most of his time doing secret missions with them while spending less time with the Japanese members spending a great deal of BK lives and resources specifically targetting members of Britannian royalty, and showing that he cared more about one enemy Britannian girl over thousands of their own people. Suddenly it being revealed that he was a prince, and it wouldn't be too difficult to come to that conclusion.

Instead they just kind of betray him because. No clear thought process was explained.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Instead they just kind of betray him because. No clear thought process was explained.

I would argue that it wasn't clearly explained, not at all, but the implication that Lelouch was just using them as part of a struggle between Britannians wasn't entirely absent from what actually happened during the conversation either (or from previous episodes).

Schneizel was, after all, more or less arguing that he just wanted to take his rebellious brother back.

Which is one more reason why I think the whole deal should have been assigned two episodes and not only one. That way there would be an opportunity for better explanations, without substantially changing the elements presented in R2 19, simply by expanding upon all of the details.

There is no question about the fact that the betrayal was mishandled but I do reject the notion that there is absolutely no room for analysis beyond either accepting everything at face value or a deconstruction of the problems with the scenario as it was presented.

In short:

Understanding what the show was trying to do, generally speaking, even if you don't agree with how it was done or what it led to is also something that is possible here.

[Kittenlady]

^ Seconded. I saw a betrayal coming from the first season, but the way it was done was absolutely terrible.

The really annoying thing is that it shouldn't have been that difficult to make it believable, since Lelouch was always so perfectly willing to be an ass and had made quite a few bad decisions (though I still think the fact that he was the best thing they had should overrule any of this but never mind that). It really shouldn't have been so badly done.

[Archaic]

Personally, the only way the betrayal made sense to me was if we assumed Schneizel was originally meant to have a geass, something along the lines of making people he speaks to face-to-face more trusting of him, and more prepared to accept what he says at face value. Certainly makes more sense than, say, Toudou instantly accepting what Schneizel is saying when he would have known (having met him while he was at the Kururugi shrine) that Lelouch's hatred for Brittania was no lie. Hell, you'd think all the people who were there when Kirihara saw Zero unmasked might have been a bit more trusting of Lelouch, given that it was obvious the two knew one another and that he had Kirihara's trust and respect.

[azul120]

Yeah. Plothole-o-rama. Though they might have suspected Kirihara had been geassed.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Archaic

Personally, the only way the betrayal made sense to me was if we assumed Schneizel was originally meant to have a geass, something along the lines of making people he speaks to face-to-face more trusting of him, and more prepared to accept what he says at face value. Certainly makes more sense than, say, Toudou instantly accepting what Schneizel is saying when he would have known (having met him while he was at the Kururugi shrine) that Lelouch's hatred for Brittania was no lie. Hell, you'd think all the people who were there when Kirihara saw Zero unmasked might have been a bit more trusting of Lelouch, given that it was obvious the two knew one another and that he had Kirihara's trust and respect.

I think that there was ample material to work with in order to make a more convincing betrayal, and various points of irritation and mistrust were being shown to crop up with Zero's methods throughout both seasons. The problem was that none of these things were properlly presented to the BK in a manner that didn't reek of suspicion.

My guess would more be that the BK were originally supposed to have some sort of partial evidence of Geass that would lend credence to Schneizel's claims, such as files recovered from the Geass Order or perhaps one of the BK would have been Geassed by Lelouch and then accidentally Cancelled by Jeremiah, thus regaining their memories of Zero making them do something rather questionable with hypnotic powers.

From there it would be a simple matter of pointing out other acts that the BK were either suspicious of or aware of, such as the destruction of the JLF's tanker and the manipulation of Xing-ke respectively, that would lead the BK to justifiably believe that Zero saw them as tools rather than people.

As for Tohdoh accepting Lelouch based on his hatred of Britannia, first of all time can change a person and twist them in surprising ways. Lelouch and Suzaku each commented on how different the other was upon meeting in Ashford. Further, just because Lelouch hates Britannia doesn't mean he would love Japan. He may only see them as a means of gaining his revenge on Britannia and be willing to let as many Japanese die as he needed. His killing of Katase (Tohdoh's mentor) is strong evidence to the idea of Lelouch seeing people as pawns.

As for trusting Kirihara, remember, that scene put him in an ideal position to be Geassed into only thinking he trusted and respected Lelouch. For all the BK knew, Kirihara's true memories of Lelouch made him think he had stepped into an Omen remake.

[azul120]

All true, except that IIRC it was already known that Xing-ke's plans were sort of stolen, and that Xing-ke was acknowledged as a colleague of Zero.

It would still be a matter of Lelouch being a victim of smear, though not nearly as much as in R2 19.

[Betteroffer]

Xing-ke and Zero had semi-collaborated with each other in various ways up until the Tianzi wedding at which point Zero promptly piggyback/stole Xing-ke's coup plan, kidnapped the Tianzi, and left Xing-ke and his subordinates at the mercy of the Eunuchs all while mocking him...with the BK's help.

Zero basically found a like minded individual who was also fighting for a nation's freedom (and his loli) in Xing-ke and proceeded to use him and cast him aside when it was convenient (though it obviously came back to bite him). This is similar to how he used the JLF several times in the first season: decrying Kusakabe at Kawaguchi as a publicity stunt, not aligning with the JLF in Narita, using them as a shield while they escaped, and finally murdering their leader when he had been explicitly charged with protecting him.

If these facts could be presented convincingly to the BK (and they could, seeing as the BK already knew about, and had helped with all of it, save for killing Katase) then it would be a very short jump to asking themseleves if Zero could kill them if it was convenient. He already cast them aside during the Black Rebellion.

At this point it would be 2 parts smear and 8 parts karma.

[Laurcus]

It kinda makes me wonder what the black knights would have been like if they knew the whole naked truth. Like if they saw things as an outside observer like we do. You think their reaction would have been better or worse than what actually happened at the betrayal?

If they saw all of the good and all of the bad things might have been different.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

Xing-ke and Zero had semi-collaborated with each other in various ways up until the Tianzi wedding at which point Zero promptly piggyback/stole Xing-ke's coup plan, kidnapped the Tianzi, and left Xing-ke and his subordinates at the mercy of the Eunuchs all while mocking him...with the BK's help.

Zero basically found a like minded individual who was also fighting for a nation's freedom (and his loli) in Xing-ke and proceeded to use him and cast him aside when it was convenient (though it obviously came back to bite him). This is similar to how he used the JLF several times in the first season: decrying Kusakabe at Kawaguchi as a publicity stunt, not aligning with the JLF in Narita, using them as a shield while they escaped, and finally murdering their leader when he had been explicitly charged with protecting him.

If these facts could be presented convincingly to the BK (and they could, seeing as the BK already knew about, and had helped with all of it, save for killing Katase) then it would be a very short jump to asking themseleves if Zero could kill them if it was convenient. He already cast them aside during the Black Rebellion.

At this point it would be 2 parts smear and 8 parts karma.

He didn't really leave Xing-ke to the eunuchs, given that they were still allied. While there was some antagonization, and it could have been intentionally negative, it was at least somewhat necessary as part of a Xanatos Gambit to get the eunuchs to reveal their true nature, and then have the conversation broadcasted to the people.

The only clear blowback was Kallen getting captured, but that was also because she went into Leeroy Jenkins mode, and Suzaku was determined to have his way.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

Further, just because Lelouch hates Britannia doesn't mean he would love Japan. He may only see them as a means of gaining his revenge on Britannia and be willing to let as many Japanese die as he needed. His killing of Katase (Tohdoh's mentor) is strong evidence to the idea of Lelouch seeing people as pawns.

Thing is. That was exactly how Lelouch felt for most of the show. The Black Knights and Japan were very useful tools, tools that he could use and end their service with them content enough to leave him alone, but in the end, he really didn't care much about Japan. He wasn't going to screw them all over if he didn't have to but he had clear priorities and the Japanese weren't one of them.

I'd mentioned way back in the break between seasons that this kind of relationship wasn't healthy and would eventually break down but people just shot me down back then, some even thinking that the BK would totally understand and praise him for choosing his sister over them, because it would show that he was a kind brother or some crap. Turns out no, Nunally was just an enemy politician to them and him showing he cared for her more than them was the final nail in the coffin.

[azul120]

Actually, that didn't even come up at all in R2 19, beyond perhaps Lelouch's final frenzied order to find her.

With that in mind, I still find it rich how Ohgi got away with his secret affair with Villetta.

[roriconfan]

Well, the whole deal of BK wanting Zero back in R2 in order to lead them was pretty far fetched to begin with... Just like everything else in that dreadful piece of storytelling.

Kallen: Hello you damn traitor, I know you betrayed us and dump us all to die for your sister but I came back for you, wearing a bunny suit. Now allow us all to service all your needs and take advantage of us again.

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Thing is. That was exactly how Lelouch felt for most of the show. The Black Knights and Japan were very useful tools, tools that he could use and end their service with them content enough to leave him alone, but in the end, he really didn't care much about Japan. He wasn't going to screw them all over if he didn't have to but he had clear priorities and the Japanese weren't one of them.

I'd mentioned way back in the break between seasons that this kind of relationship wasn't healthy and would eventually break down but people just shot me down back then, some even thinking that the BK would totally understand and praise him for choosing his sister over them, because it would show that he was a kind brother or some crap. Turns out no, Nunally was just an enemy politician to them and him showing he cared for her more than them was the final nail in the coffin.

Lelouch end goals were not bad. Having a better world where his sister and him can live and revenge in Britanian were decent goals. The black knights having Japan isn't a bad trade off for meeting his goals. It is almost a win-win situation. He doesnt have to care for it as much, but he was willing to put the effort and is the most suited to free Japan.

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Well, the whole deal of BK wanting Zero back in R2 in order to lead them was pretty far fetched to begin with... Just like everything else in that dreadful piece of storytelling.

Kallen: Hello you damn traitor, I know you betrayed us and dump us all to die for your sister but I came back for you, wearing a bunny suit. Now allow us all to service all your needs and take advantage of us again.

Thats what happens when he is the only one capable of freeing Japan.

Bunny Suit

[Kittenlady]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Kallen: Hello you damn traitor, I know you betrayed us and dump us all to die for your sister but I came back for you, wearing a bunny suit. Now allow us all to service all your needs and take advantage of us again.

Take advantage my arse. If they get their country back, they have no right to complain. They'd have almost certainly been caught and dead were it not for Zero.

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

Lelouch end goals were not bad. Having a better world where his sister and him can live and revenge in Britanian were decent goals. The black knights having Japan isn't a bad trade off for meeting his goals. It is almost a win-win situation. He doesnt have to care for it as much, but he was willing to put the effort and is the most suited to free Japan.

Exactly. Whether the Japanese getting their country back was his main motivation or not, it was still a side-effect of his main goal. The result's the same.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

Take advantage my arse. If they get their country back, they have no right to complain. They'd have almost certainly been caught and dead were it not for Zero.

They were in a pinch because of Zero in the first place. Or would they all be dead if he didn't approach them in the first place?

[Aquaman OS]

But having two very different goals with a similar road to it, doesn't make a healthy trusting relationship.

If it was for a short time it might have worked out better, but Lelouch lead them for a good year all the while going behind their back and expecting them to just take it if it meant they might get what they want in the end. That doesn't always work, and when the truth was revealed it turns out they couldn't trust him enough to go out of their way for him, just like Lelouch wouldn't go out of his way for them early on. If it came down to them or Nunnally then he left them to their fate so it coming down to Japan or Zero and them ditching him is just desserts for his previous behavior.

It's outright absurd for people to think the Black Knights should be perfectly ok being 2nd priority to a useless blind girl.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

Thats what happens when he is the only one capable of freeing Japan.

Bunny Suit

As if the Black Knights would know or care.

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

Take advantage my arse. If they get their country back, they have no right to complain. They'd have almost certainly been caught and dead were it not for Zero.

Trust is hard to build but very easy to destroy. After you abandon all your followers and leave them for dead to pursue your own selfish desires they do not come crawling back to you. That ain't how human psychology or the real world works.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Trust is hard to build but very easy to destroy. After you abandon all your followers and leave them for dead to pursue your own selfish desires they do not come crawling back to you. That ain't how human psychology or the real world works.

In my country, there is a saying.

People may forgive treason but they never forgive the traitor.

Once again, R2 was completely detached for reality.

[Aquaman OS]

Actually although them reforming the BK was a bit unnecessery I thought R2 portrayed it very well. If you notice none of the returning season 1 Japanese BK's except Tamaki and Kallen, seem to like Zero much anymore behind the scenes, and are repeatedly shown to be suspicious, untrusting and only putting up with him because they were too far in to back down now. Compare to season 1 where they all adored him.

So all wasn't forgiven and the betrayal was pretty well hinted early on. The only thing they blew was the execution of it.