Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[azul120]

Had it not been for the events of R2 19 whittling away the last grains of his sanity, possibly so.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Simply massacring the Geass Order (researchers and children for the most part) in a hissy fit, was enough to require him to die. Nevermind the Euphie incident, and what happened to Shirley (both of which were indirectly his fault) Otherwise he'd seem like a massive jackass for getting a happy life after slaughtering so many.

Yes, Euphemia and Shirley were caused by Lelouch, but they were both indirect or accidental.

As for the Geass Order, while I will grant you the children killing was evil (baring a relatively deep explanation from a child psychologist saying they would have horrible lives and be a danger to those around them if they were spared) I can't say I have sympathy for the researchers. Remember, these people were studying Geass and the children given the power like lab animals. Rolo himself stated that he was raised in such a way that he had NO knowledge of a family and how to deal with people to the point that he could happily kill the group of younger children who apparently trusted him and exhibited little to no signs of empathy for anyone who wasn't Lelouch. Also remember, that Rolo stated that he had his Geass since age six and had been used as a tool of murder since as far back as he could remember. He was raised to equate killing with brushing his teeth.

Anyone who raises one child, let alone hundreds in such conditions would be pretty heinous.

[Aquaman OS]

Rolo might have been an exception. His Geass made him a perfect covert assassin so he was raised as such. But that doesn't necesserily mean all the kids there would be following in his footsteps, especially since despite the Order being around for a good long while Rolo is the only Geass assassin we see.

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

Yes, Euphemia and Shirley were caused by Lelouch, but they were both indirect or accidental.

As for the Geass Order, while I will grant you the children killing was evil (baring a relatively deep explanation from a child psychologist saying they would have horrible lives and be a danger to those around them if they were spared) I can't say I have sympathy for the researchers. Remember, these people were studying Geass and the children given the power like lab animals. Rolo himself stated that he was raised in such a way that he had NO knowledge of a family and how to deal with people to the point that he could happily kill the group of younger children who apparently trusted him and exhibited little to no signs of empathy for anyone who wasn't Lelouch. Also remember, that Rolo stated that he had his Geass since age six and had been used as a tool of murder since as far back as he could remember. He was raised to equate killing with brushing his teeth.

Anyone who raises one child, let alone hundreds in such conditions would be pretty heinous.

Lelouch did some crazy things, and massacring the Geass Order was evil. Then again I can't really imagine a cure for these children so death maybe an option, but unfortunately Lelouch did it on the emotional side instead of moral or reasoning side.

When Lelouch did Zero Requim his fate can't be reverse anymore. Lelouch could have simply blamed everything on his father. If he would have blamed his father for geassing Euphie then he cleared her name and he doesn't have to commit so much blood shed.

[azul120]

Yeah. He went with Zero Requiem because he wanted to die, most logically. With Nunnally apparently gone and pretty much no one else to turn to who still wanted to live, Lelouch felt like he had nothing more to live for.

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by azul120

Yeah. He went with Zero Requiem because he wanted to die, most logically. With Nunnally apparently gone and pretty much no one else to turn to who still wanted to live, Lelouch felt like he had nothing more to live for.

If only he thought about Kallen, Rivalz, and Milly he shouldn't be going with a death plan. His actions reminds me about a person that is afraid to kill himself so he takes out others in the process.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Rolo might have been an exception. His Geass made him a perfect covert assassin so he was raised as such. But that doesn't necesserily mean all the kids there would be following in his footsteps, especially since despite the Order being around for a good long while Rolo is the only Geass assassin we see.

V.V. stated that Rolo was deemed a failure, implying a standard and frequent use. Similarly, among the group of children he killed, one of them immediately took control of the Black Knight and made him kill his comrade, while all the others then had their own eyes light up. Perhaps not ALL of them would be raised as assassins, but a fair number were.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I agree that what Villetta did there was shitty. However, I consider it no worse than some of the BK's violent tendencies (I don't care that they've been oppressed for seven years, you do not use violence against students who are not a threat to you) or Cornelia's willingness to sacrifice hostages that are not Euphie. Even a likeable character like Rivalz will not stop to call an ambulance for people who've just been in a traffic accident because he does not want to be late to school, and while this is not nearly the same as what Villetta did, it's something worth thinking about. The average Britannian does not care much about strangers, and even a usually nice guy like Rivalz is inclined to not give a damn about some random person under the right circumstances.

Villetta was trying to catch a terrorist, and while her methods weren't at all awesome, telling her superiors that some Britannian student is able to control people's minds probably wouldn't have worked out too well even if she'd wanted to.

I'm not saying Viletta was the ultimate evil either, nor that she was necessarily worse than the Japanese, just that she had other options to using Shirley, such as simply spying on Lelouch herself or otherwise going about things in a way that did not involve endangering non military personel.

She didn't need to tell her bosses about the mind control. She could have just lied and claimed that she caught a glimpse of someone in Shinjuku and Shirley's picture jogged her memory.

As for Rivalz, remember there were dozens of other Britannians already gawking at the traffic accident with their phones out (not that uncommon in our world) so he could have just assumed that several among them were in the process of calling the police. It's no guarantee, but it is a possibility.

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

This is definitely a valid point, though considering that she was not as emotionally involved as Rolo, she might not have been convinced.

Again, he took a sniper shot that would have killed Rolo, while Rolo was still trying to kill him. Unless she's psychic that should have been an absolute indicator that Lelouch would go to absurd lengths to protect those he cared for, which should similarly cast doubt on the idea that he was responsible for Shirley's death.

[Laurcus]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Light was a devil in human form. A total sociopath with no ability to feel or care for other human beings. He deserved everything he got and more.

While I suppose Lelouch could have gotten off with a non lethal punishment, would he have accepted that himself?

Well, I gotta disagree with you about Light to be perfectly honest. Rule number 11 of the Death Note. "The person in possession of the Death Note is possessed by a god of death, its original owner, until they die" According to official Death Note rules Light should have been possessed by Ryuk.

But anyways this isn't the Death Note forums and i'm getting off topic. Imho the geass order deserved no mercy at all. Those were not children, they were weapons of war. And I don't even consider the researchers to be human. Experimenting on children to make them killers is not something I can forgive. Lelouch is a hero for slaughtering them all, as insane as that probably sounds.

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by Laurcus

Well, I gotta disagree with you about Light to be perfectly honest. Rule number 11 of the Death Note. "The person in possession of the Death Note is possessed by a god of death, its original owner, until they die" According to official Death Note rules Light should have been possessed by Ryuk.

But anyways this isn't the Death Note forums and i'm getting off topic. Imho the geass order deserved no mercy at all. Those were not children, they were weapons of war. And I don't even consider the researchers to be human. Experimenting on children to make them killers is not something I can forgive. Lelouch is a hero for slaughtering them all, as insane as that probably sounds.

If Lelouch have thought this one through I might have said the same thing, but he did it because of the result of Shirley. He attacked out of rage not within morale or reason. He should have taken control of the Cult instead of destroying it the way he did.

[Kittenlady]

Do his intentions matter if the result was positive?



Judge him consistently for his intentions or his actions if you're not going to do both~

[Knightrunner]

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

Do his intentions matter if the result was positive?



Judge him consistently for his intentions or his actions if you're not going to do both~

Actually, I judge Lelouch for both his intentions and actions. Lelouch might have gotten better results if he didn't kill them under Shirley's name. He should have just sticked to his original plan and took control of the Geass Order.

Here is an example:
If he intended to kill Euphie for fun then everbody would think he was an A-hole in that spot.
Since he killed Euphie by accident we do not hate him as much.
The results are still the same, but under different intentions and circumstance.
-------------------------------------
Throughtout the series he commits evil to stop the greater evil because he had no choice. During Zero Requim he had a choice and he picked being the greater evil. His intentions may not be bad trying to create a peaceful world by killing himself, but the results are terrible. Now Ougi is leader. I bet he hasn't thought it threw hard enough.

[GundamFan0083]

I have a question that's been bugging me.

Why is it the Black Knights were mortified by the killing of Geass wielding children who not only could kill members of the BKs but did (at least a few BK pilots in their Gekka KMFs), yet they had absolutely NO PROBLEM with taking over Ashford Academy in S1 (to the point where Tamaki threatens Milley, Rivalts and the others with a machinegun).

While I'm thinking of it...why the hell would the Black Knights give a rat's ass about a bunch of Britannian children after both Clovis and Cornelia slaughtered untold numbers of them in both the Saitama and Shinjiku ghettos????

This is why I maintain that the betrayal by the BKs of Lelouch (as it was presented in R2) was a complete Ass Pull of Epic Proportions on Okouchi's part.
I understand the writer needed to separate Lelouch and isolate him for the Zero Requiem (which is a failure of a different magnitude), but c'mon, throw us a bone here Ichiro!

[Shinji103]

Well I was planning on just reading and not participating in this lol, but this comment warrants response.

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

Do his intentions matter if the result was positive?

Absolutely.

Say a rapist is targeting a girl. He sees a guy with her and thinks he's her boyfriend, so he stabs him and kills him to keep the girl for himself. But it turns out the guy was a mugger. If people know what the rapist's real intent was (to rape the girl), should he be congratulated for saving the girl from the mugger?

Intent always matters.

Ah well, while I'm commenting, for the record I'm with Knightrunner; maybe Lelouch did the right thing in terms of results, but his intentions were totally wrong. He was on a revenge rage. He wanted to make somebody pay for Shirley's death, and he had the perfect target to vent his anger and frustration on. As for the discussion itself, both Lelouch and the BK were at fault; Lelouch did quite a few naughty things over the course of the series leading up to the betrayal so he had a good deal of that crap coming, and at the same time the BK were idiots for putting so much trust in Schneizel.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

Actually, I judge Lelouch for both his intentions and actions. Lelouch might have gotten better results if he didn't kill them under Shirley's name. He should have just sticked to his original plan and took control of the Geass Order.

Here is an example:
If he intended to kill Euphie for fun then everbody would think he was an A-hole in that spot.
Since he killed Euphie by accident we do not hate him as much.
The results are still the same, but under different intentions and circumstance.
-------------------------------------
Throughtout the series he commits evil to stop the greater evil because he had no choice. During Zero Requim he had a choice and he picked being the greater evil. His intentions may not be bad trying to create a peaceful world by killing himself, but the results are terrible. Now Ougi is leader. I bet he hasn't thought it threw hard enough.

It's fair to say that he hadn't thought it through because he entirely lost the plot due to the events up to R2 19. Which made him something of a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Why is it the Black Knights were mortified by the killing of Geass wielding children who not only could kill members of the BKs but did (at least a few BK pilots in their Gekka KMFs), yet they had absolutely NO PROBLEM with taking over Ashford Academy in S1 (to the point where Tamaki threatens Milley, Rivalts and the others with a machinegun).

While I'm thinking of it...why the hell would the Black Knights give a rat's ass about a bunch of Britannian children after both Clovis and Cornelia slaughtered untold numbers of them in both the Saitama and Shinjiku ghettos????

Because there's a big different between seizing a civillian location for a military advantage and doing your best not to harm the people there (which was what everyone except Tamaki because he's got anger issues was trying to do), and storming a civillian research facility (which was what the Geass order was, beyond the 6 or so Geass users, and Seigfried they were totally weaponless and defenseless.) made up mostly of women and children and slaughtering the whole damn place just for the sake of destroying it.

Again except for Tamaki the BK did not operate with eye for an eye methods and only fought Britannian soldiers that messed with them. They did not just kill every Britannian person they saw. Killing unarmed women and children was not cool with them.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Because there's a big different between seizing a civillian location for a military advantage and doing your best not to harm the people there (which was what everyone except Tamaki because he's got anger issues was trying to do), and storming a civillian research facility (which was what the Geass order was, beyond the 6 or so Geass users, and Seigfried they were totally weaponless and defenseless.) made up mostly of women and children and slaughtering the whole damn place just for the sake of destroying it.

Remember the flashback in Turn 21 where V.V. pretends to express sadss at Marianne's deah to Charles. The two of them are overlooking hundreds of children as they talk.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Again except for Tamaki the BK did not operate with eye for an eye methods and only fought Britannian soldiers that messed with them. They did not just kill every Britannian person they saw. Killing unarmed women and children was not cool with them.

Except in Stage 1 where Nagata suggests using the "poison gas capsule" in the middle of the Tokyo Settlement.

And Stage 5 where Minami and Yoshida act as support while Tamaki prepares to attack two unarmed highschool children.

And Stage 8 where they express only mild regret at Kusakabe's actions, and solely because the recognize it is just a suicide tactic on the colonel's part, despite the clear presence of highschool children and a little girl who had to be under 10 in the video.

And the Black Rebellion, where no one except Zero tries to stop Tamaki from assaulting and later shooting highschool children and no one cares that Zero collapsed part of a city on top of itself.

[Aquaman OS]

There's still a massive differance in deliberately slaughtering helpless women and children. Maybe they didn't care about colateral damage (but even then everybody but Tamaki were pleasant to the Ashford kids, Ougi even told them to let an apparant escaping one go). Heck beating up and taking hostages isn't quite as bad as slaughtering for no reason. The poison gas would have been a desperate act to stop a desperate situation. I don't think anybody in the BK would have been cool if Lelouch led a massacre on Britannians for no discernable reason when they didn't need to.

And regardless of how many kids there were in the flashback, in ep 14 only Jeremiah Rolo, CC or Lelouch would be able to take out the Geass users and we only see those 6 or so Rolo takes care of. Beyond that I think it's safe to say they were the only ones. All we see dying for the most part are non combatants and researchers that were helpless to fight back. That did not sit well with the BK.

[Kittenlady]

From that little argument you all had about when Lelouch started deserving to die (not getting into how I personally don't think anyone ever deserves to die). At least Lelouch never experimented on children =D

Think about Rolo's heart condition for a minute. That was the best they had at the time, imagine how many kids they went through just to get to Rolo's very faulty fake geass. In the same vein you were talking, I'd say those scientists and researches definitely deserved to die.

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Well I was planning on just reading and not participating in this lol, but this comment warrants response.

Absolutely.

Say a rapist is targeting a girl. He sees a guy with her and thinks he's her boyfriend, so he stabs him and kills him to keep the girl for himself. But it turns out the guy was a mugger. If people know what the rapist's real intent was (to rape the girl), should he be congratulated for saving the girl from the mugger?

Intent always matters.

Oh, I completely agree. I'm perfectly aware that in real life, attempted murder, for example is, in that sense, worse than manslaughter.

But, this is fiction, slightly different rules apply. It just annoys me how when people want to paint a character in a certain light, they pick and choose which actions or intentions of theirs were the best/worst. Consistency dammit!

I probably should have been a bit more clear ^_^'

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

I'm not saying Viletta was the ultimate evil either, nor that she was necessarily worse than the Japanese, just that she had other options to using Shirley, such as simply spying on Lelouch herself or otherwise going about things in a way that did not involve endangering non military personel.

I agree then, but I still think that a very large part of the hate Villetta gets is a result of her screwing Lelouch over in R2, and not of her being a not-so-good person in general. And I think it doesn't really make sense, since Villetta had no reason to give a damn about Lelouch. For all she knew, he could turn around and screw her and Ougi over any moment, either for the sake of his revenge or because he lost it, or both - I'm sure he didn't seem like the most stable guy around to her.

As for Rivalz, remember there were dozens of other Britannians already gawking at the traffic accident with their phones out (not that uncommon in our world) so he could have just assumed that several among them were in the process of calling the police. It's no guarantee, but it is a possibility.

Exactly, they were gawking. Rivalz may be a bit dense soemtimes, but he could see that much himself, and he probably knew that the average Britannian is not quick to help those in need - in other words, "the weak" -, so he could have at least checked on that, or better yet, checked on the people who were likely in need for some first aid. He even admitted that Lelouch was doing "the right thing", but instead of helping him, he complained about his "stupid pride" that would cause them to be late for class in the very same breath.

Again, he took a sniper shot that would have killed Rolo, while Rolo was still trying to kill him. Unless she's psychic that should have been an absolute indicator that Lelouch would go to absurd lengths to protect those he cared for, which should similarly cast doubt on the idea that he was responsible for Shirley's death.

Even if Villetta was not paranoid enough to suspect something, Lelouch saving Rolo is not proof that he would not sacrifice Shirley to keep himself, his goals and even Rolo safe. Of course, she knew that Shirley was not very likely to betray him, but she also knew that Lelouch had issues as well as good reason to mistrust people, and that he had killed two people he had known since childhood, one of whom was a nice, gentle girl who started massacring people out of nowhere after having been alone with him for a few minutes.



Concerning the Geass Cult -- well, many of the people there were a threat to innocent civilians. Had even one of them gotten out, it would have been a problem. And while Lelouch could have picked other methods (like capturing and geassing them all, preventing them from killing anyone in the future - though that might have been risky) and was indeed looking for an outlet for his anger and despair, he did rationalize his decision first, much like Suzaku rationalizes pretty much his every action. While deceiving himself doesn't make it all better, it shows that Lelouch had a conscience that he needed to get out of the way first, and he didn't even chose the easiest target, which would have been Rolo. He at least accepted that Rolo had issues, and that he should never have let him off the leash.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Kittenlady

But, this is fiction, slightly different rules apply.

If we change the rules, even slightly, just because it's fiction, then there's no point in this discussion though. Intent matters just as much in fiction or real life; discussion on the topic becomes moot if you start applying situational rules.

It's like rich/connected people getting leniency when driving drunk while middle-class or poor people get the full bill.