Magic and Technology of MGLN

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Impossible is not a word to be used in the Nanoha series. Painfull, difficult or hard as hell, maybe ...but impossible is just lazy talking. And that's also another fact against Signum's defeat it wasn't even that cool, it was just lazy.

However, Force takes a shift to a much more cynical end. The main character Touma goes through something similar to what Nagi went through in Tenjou Tenge (being an Unwitting Pawn). The Huckbein need to kill to keep The Corruption at bay and Mysterious Waif Lily is a source of said corruption? Also the first battle against the Huckbein does NOT go well for the heroes. (As proven by Signum)
The first battle never goes well for the heroes. During the first encounter in As, both Nanoha and Fate get their weapons destroyed and Nanoha gets hospitalized. If the heroes always won, there'd be no chance for growth. (And Signum got pwnt in Force)

If Signum won, then it's not Force anymore

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Does "broken weaponry" and "lack of illusion magic" mean fucking anything to you, Aki? I suspect that it doesn't.

Lack of illusion magic is not lack of methos of distraction. Ninjas and soldiers doesn't have illusion magic but have lots of usefull diversion tactics mind you xDU I know i'm gonna regret sying this but ...i think you're realying your logic a wee bit too much over what magic can and can't do xDU

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

And seriously, burning down the forest? "Oh no, a forest fire! This would be really bad if I couldn't fly!"

Which could be the exact purpouse for doing it? to force Cypha to flee long enough to think about something else? A Berserk Tohma will probably fly out of the inferno as well allowing Signum an attempt of taking Lily with herself (Agito can help Signum to be resistant to fire in order to do that) ...remeber, Signum ignores Arnage's presence so the idea at least seems good on paper for her.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Except she can fly, so it's not really a viable option. Throwing boulders isn't really effective either given their size and weight and such.

That's what explosion are for, did you really know how fast exploding rocks can fly? ...that's what decoys are for, to goad the target into a false sense of security in order to attempt a counter attack or escape.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

You're grasping at air, Aki.

I'm giving options instead of closing my mind to the fact that "Oh noes! my sword is broken and she can cancel attack spells ...surely my only option is to charge directly against her and pry for the better" ....come on it's basic common sense xDU

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Signum being able to fly and hit hard means jack shit when her opponent is invincible to her attacks and can also fly and was also breaking her weaponry.

That doesn't mean Signum's attack don't hurt and Cypha do need to pause a bit to regenerate ...golden opportunities Signum wasted standing still and watching. Heck, even the way she was cross-slashed was pretty dumb ...Laevatien broke in pieces and she didn't even attempted to dodge she was just standing there offering her guts to Cypha xDU As i've said Signum is faster so that came out as a pretty farfetched way to get herself injured.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

So no, I'm not overestimating AEC Armaments here. Without one, Signum wouldn't be able to win. End of fucking story.

Isis, Fate and Hayate say otherwise ...it's not easy to win against an EC driver without specialized weaponry but it's possible. Signum not being able to do that means she's weak ...or close minded, whatever suits her better.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Well, Arnage also could've just told Cypha she'd deal with it, so Cypha wouldn't need to fall for such a ploy, and Signum's lack of awareness of Arnage's presence hardly matters; ultimately it meant that victory was still impossible for Signum.

It matter because what i'm discussing was not why Signum didn't won ...i'm discussing why she lost in such a moronic way when she had like amyriad of better options to give a better fight and even endure long enough for help to come and rescue her from peril. Arnage's precense is in fact a key factor against Signum's possible counter-strategies due to Signum ommiting the presence of yet another EC Driver on the scene. But taking Arnage out of the picture most of those plans sound like very viable ways to conduit the battle than the disastrously lazy option took in canon.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Well, let's see... bringing back Alicia from the dead? Impossible. Claus winning against Olive? Impossible. Reinforce being saved permanently from the Book of Darkness? Impossible.

Unlucky, not impossible. We didn't knew what ultimately happened to Alicia. Claus didn't won against Olivie for more than just lack of strenght (guy's mind was pretty obsessed over stuff, stress can be a harsh enemy during a fight) ...Reinforce is about the only thing i could give away as impossible but that's just becasue we're talking about cosmic forces there ...a fight against a zombie-mutant who dispells magic is a FAR simpler task to accomplish xDU

Originally Posted by bhl88

If the heroes always won, there'd be no chance for growth. (And Signum got pwnt in Force)

then tell me, where's Signum's growth from that battle?

Originally Posted by bhl88

If Signum won, then it's not Force anymore

You're saying it as if it were a bad thing xD

[bhl88]

The first battle never goes well for the heroes. During the first encounter in As, both Nanoha and Fate get their weapons destroyed and Nanoha gets hospitalized. If the heroes always won, there'd be no chance for growth. (And Signum got pwnt in Force)

And a rock is not harder than Laevantine. Even if she did use rocks, the fact that Laevantine got damaged is the proof what Rising Dragon said: She wouldn't have won, even with a burning tree, or an exploding rock or swinging a burning Touma, or swinging Laevantine.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by bhl88

And a rock is not harder than Laevantine. Even if she did use rocks, the fact that Laevantine got damaged is the proof what Rising Dragon said: She wouldn't have won, even with a burning tree, or an exploding rock or swinging a burning Touma, or swinging Laevantine.

It's not only about how hard it is, it also matter how fast it moves, how hot it is and how much destruction can spread by exploding xD

And i didn't even talking about a victory here ...i'm talking about survival xD

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

It's not only about how hard it is, it also matter how fast it moves, how hot it is and how much destruction can spread by exploding xD

And i didn't even talking about a victory here ...i'm talking about survival xD

lol Arnage is still there (and Touma may go Hulk-smash on Signum), so it wouldn't help even if Signum wins against Cypha XD

As for Signum's growth? Give it 15 more chapters XD

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Lack of illusion magic is not lack of methos of distraction. Ninjas and soldiers doesn't have illusion magic but have lots of usefull diversion tactics mind you xDU I know i'm gonna regret sying this but ...i think you're realying your logic a wee bit too much over what magic can and can't do xDU

You're relying on crap that Signum can't do in the fight, so you're not exactly better off, now are you?

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Which could be the exact purpouse for doing it? to force Cypha to flee long enough to think about something else? A Berserk Tohma will probably fly out of the inferno as well allowing Signum an attempt of taking Lily with herself (Agito can help Signum to be resistant to fire in order to do that) ...remeber, Signum ignores Arnage's presence so the idea at least seems good on paper for her.

Just getting up over the forest isn't a whole lot of fucking time, Aki. And Berserk Touma's more likely to just annihilate the whole fucking valley with a Divide Zero, like he did in the first chapter. The whole idea behind this debate is the fact that you're trying to claim that fire and Signum are weak because of bullshit insane troll logic and such.

What does and doesn't sound good on paper ultimately doesn't matter--it doesn't change the fact that there was no chance of winning.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

That's what explosion are for, did you really know how fast exploding rocks can fly? ...that's what decoys are for, to goad the target into a false sense of security in order to attempt a counter attack or escape.

Explosions that would be powered by magic that may or may not (leaning towards may not) work on Cypha at all. Don't bring up Isis because her explosions were still caused by chemicals, whereas explosions from Agito or Signum would rely entirely on creation from magic. And again, you bring up decoys--what decoys? Signum doesn't have decoys nor the ability to create decoys, so no--not an option for delaying or combat or really fucking anything in this fight. And as other arguments have pointed out, ESCAPE WASN'T AN OPTION for Signum. There was a friggin' hostage situation!

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

I'm giving options instead of closing my mind to the fact that "Oh noes! my sword is broken and she can cancel attack spells ...surely my only option is to charge directly against her and pry for the better" ....come on it's basic common sense xDU

Options that don't work--you really, really don't understand the concept of "can't do shit", do you? Signum's options were limited by her capabilities, and all of those options just DIDN'T WORK against Cypha. And because of it, you're trying to spin some stupid-ass argument about how the element of fire is weak because it couldn't hurt someone who was goddamn INVINCIBLE.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Isis, Fate and Hayate say otherwise ...it's not easy to win against an EC driver without specialized weaponry but it's possible. Signum not being able to do that means she's weak ...or close minded, whatever suits her better.

Isis had equipment to cause damage to Eclipse users that Signum didn't. Fate had equipment to cause damage to Eclipse users that Signum didn't. And Hayate's one attempt nearly got her killed, and her own attempt was still because of something that Signum didn't have.

So the point remains. Signum's lack of AEC Armaments means she wasn't going to fucking win. So again. End of fucking story.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

It matter because what i'm discussing was not why signum didn't won ...i'm discussing why she lost in such a moronic way when she had like amyriad of better options to give a better fight and even endure long enough for help to come and rescue her from peril. Arnage's precense is in fact a key factor against Signum's possible counter-strategies due to Signum ommiting the presence of yet another EC Driver on the scene. But taking Arnage out of the picture most of those plans sound like very viable ways to conduit the battle than the disastrously lazy option took in canon.

No, what you're trying to do is troll the fanbase with shit reasons over an aspect you didn't like. It's been explained half a dozen times to you why Signum took the actions she did. You're just, once again, ignoring it because if you actually acknowledged it you'd have one less thing to troll with.

[bhl88]

And that's how Link fought against Gandondorf early in the chapter and lost.

Signum fought a boss level character, of course she'd lose.

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by bhl88

And that's how Link fought against Gandondorf early in the chapter and lost.

Signum fought a boss level character, of course she'd lose.

Or the same situation with Kyosuke in SRW OG 2. He didn't have time to upgrade, so he got stomped by Axel till he got the Riese.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

You're relying on crap that Signum can't do in the fight, so you're not exactly better off, now are you?

Damn straight, i knew i will regret it xDU

But everything propossed is stuff Signum is perfectly capable to do as long as she avoids doing the foolish, foolsih thing she did at the end of that fight.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Just getting up over the forest isn't a whole lot of fucking time, Aki.

Exactly, they'll get the crap out of there leaving an opening for Signum and Agito (or maybe just Agito) to attempt a rescue. Agito can move and open paths between natural fire just fine.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

And Berserk Touma's more likely to just annihilate the whole fucking valley with a Divide Zero, like he did in the first chapter.

Doesn't matter in paper because no one knows he had such an ability at the time, not even the Hucks.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

What does and doesn't sound good on paper ultimately doesn't matter--it doesn't change the fact that there was no chance of winning.

Slim chance, but there was ...and even if it wasn't, the chance for a better outcome (even in defeat) for her and the hostages is more than worth fighting for.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Explosions that would be powered by magic that may or may not (leaning towards may not) work on Cypha at all. Don't bring up Isis because her explosions were still caused by chemicals, whereas explosions from Agito or Signum would rely entirely on creation from magic.

Explosions are explosions, even if the fire from those can be cancelled the potent shockwave cannot. Cypha either shield from it or dodge (good luck trying to mantain straight flight among explosive shockwaves) ...that also reminds me ..Agito posses a pretty usefull spell that produces a powerfull flashbang and a deafening noise similar to Vita's Eisengehul ...now THAT would be a smart move.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

And again, you bring up decoys--what decoys? Signum doesn't have decoys nor the ability to create decoys, so no--not an option for delaying or combat or really fucking anything in this fight. And as other arguments have pointed out, ESCAPE WASN'T AN OPTION for Signum. There was a friggin' hostage situation!

Okay, i just have curiosity about something. Do you really think the way this fight was portrayed is the absolutely best and most logically possible? Do you really think there's absolutely no other way this fight could be developed (Signum's victory is irrelevant, just another way to develope the fight that makes it more believable and less "forced")? Is this fight such a perfect masterpiece of writing that there's absolutely nothing left to correct or edit in it?

All of our other argument had become redundant and all comes down to those questions

I think it does, and mind you, i'm not the only one (probably just the only one crazy enough to openly talk about it xD) ...but well, i'll rest my case here since i'm not receiving convincing arguments, just complaining.

Originally Posted by bhl88

Signum fought a boss level character, of course she'd lose.

Pretty shameful considering Signum is a former Boss-level character herself xDU

[bhl88]

Reinforce (and Yuri in GOD's case) was the boss character, not Signum.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by bhl88

Reinforce (and Yuri in GOD's case) was the boss character, not Signum.

The same applies here, Curren and Hardis are the bosses, not Cypha xDU

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

You have to admit being so dependant to mana is a very crippling disadvantage against other elements, tough xDU

Like lightning? Or wind?

Fire has the advantage of always being a highly damaging spell by virtue of being... well... fire. Yes, this comes with drawbacks, but then ice and wind have the drawback of not being dangerous until sufficient quantities are used.

Also, ice user against fire user. Do tell me who's most likely to come out on top.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

*Buy time time until reinforces come?

How? By running? Cypha has no reason to stay.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

*Play with her speed to outmaneuver Cypha (Signum shown to be quite faster than her)?

She did, and she scored several hits doing so. It's just that attacks with magic weaponry on Infected have a negative effect on the weapon and thus hits can't be scored often enough to turn the tide of battle.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

*Use the enviroment to compensate her disadvantages (a forest is a pretty good place to do tricky stuff during a fight)?

Jumping into a forest just gives Cypha a chance to shrug and leave.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

*Provoking explosions rather than flamethrowers (as Isis showed, explosions alone cannot be cancelled)?

Isis' explosions were chemical, not magical.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

So Signum was screwed no matter what she does in that fight but that also isn't an indicator of Cypha being remarkably strong o_o?

I think i got a little lost here xDU

It was an indicator of how dangerous the Eclipse virus is for mages. Notice how they drop the name "Mage Killer" several times during the fight.

Also, Aki? By the logic you're using, Nanoha is weaker than Vita.

Think about that for a moment.

[Akiyoshi]

First off, i thank you Keroko for bringing some order here xD

now to the matter:

Originally Posted by Keroko

Like lightning? Or wind?

Fire has the advantage of always being a highly damaging spell by virtue of being... well... fire. Yes, this comes with drawbacks, but then ice and wind have the drawback of not being dangerous until sufficient quantities are used.

Both are natural enemies of fire and while it's true they aren't instantly damaging, the fact they can rely on themselves instead of on an outside powersource is a great advantage against stuff that can shut down Fire's combustion

Originally Posted by Keroko

Also, ice user against fire user. Do tell me who's most likely to come out on top.

It depends on the setting, in Nanohaverse fire is purely offensive but lacks dynamism (unlike other series where Fire can be manipulated into a myriad of creative and effective ways, Signum and Agito just get conformed with throwing fireballs and flamethrowers ...pretty basic stuff).

On a straight match Fire has an edge, on a battle against skilled elemental users Ice can be pretty dangerous, swift disposition of walls, weapons, and big solid structures can protect the user effectively against flames. Unless the heat of those reach near-lava levels the user will be also vulnerable to throwing ice spikes and the like.

Originally Posted by Keroko

How? By running? Cypha has no reason to stay.

Playing hit and run with her maybe? You know attacking her but dissapearing before she can counter attack and then tease her a bit. Cypha totally looks like the type of villain who likes to talk a lot and gloat over her abilities. Heck, even prolonging the chat between the two will suffice. But then again, Signum seems to have awakened with a "less talk, more slash" mentality that morning xDU.

It's true Signum attempted to capture Cypha at first but she should have changed strategies once such task proven to be beyond her capabilities. She's not (as much as it pains me to admit) a knight anymore, she's an officer, if an officer can't handle a situation they retire until a way to do that comes out. She took bad desicions and the criminal got away with their goals anyway so in the end she got nearly killed for nothing.

Originally Posted by Keroko

She did, and she scored several hits doing so. It's just that attacks with magic weaponry on Infected have a negative effect on the weapon and thus hits can't be scored often enough to turn the tide of battle.

Which should be a signal to stop and aim for a different approach but Signum just got cocky and attempted to beat and capture Cypha with a damaged weapon and a couple of defective spells.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Jumping into a forest just gives Cypha a chance to shrug and leave.

If her main goal is the safety of the kids then tricking the criminal who has proven to be stronger than you into leaving the scene alone could be a damn good resolution to Signum's current dilema.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Isis' explosions were chemical, not magical.

I know but that's not the point. Just like the Hucks can cancel weight of a magical construct (an ice mountain being put togheter entirely by magic for example), i bet they can't cancel shockwaves provoked by explosions (unless those are Hollywood explosions that somehow doesn't provoke any shocckwaves at all until the plot request xDU). Otherwise i'm still expecting to know how Agito got to block Tohma's Silver Hammer o_oU

Originally Posted by Keroko

It was an indicator of how dangerous the Eclipse virus is for mages. Notice how they drop the name "Mage Killer" several times during the fight.

Yet the only mage decisively defeated by them and nearly "killed" was Signum. Curren didn't even used her Eclipse abilities to trounce Hayate, Vita and Erio xDU That doesn't talk very well of the "Mage KillerS" nor for Signum xDU

Originally Posted by Keroko

Also, Aki? By the logic you're using, Nanoha is weaker than Vita.

By the beginning of A's Nanoha was, in fact, weaker than Vita, that's why she received such a horrible beating. The excuse of the cartridges falls flat behind the fact Fate hold herself much better against Vita despite lacking upgrades. Then Signum, who was stronger than both at the time, appeared and stompped Fate quickly.

Once they received their upgrades they took the Wolks by surprise on round 1, then during round two Vita had no interest in fighting Nanoha so she fleed the scene.

By StrikerS there's no doubt Nanoha is the stronger of the two ...Vita is still a stron girl but, like Signum, has started to be left behind by the flow of time and the quick progress of the other characters.

[Nanya01]

Actually, Aki, at the start of A's, Nanoha was AS strong as Vita.

Vita wasn't able to do much to Nanoha and Nanoha wasn't able to do much to Vita, until Vita popped a cartridge to boost her abilities.

So, Aki, about this whole "Signum lost, therefore is weak" argument...

SHOVE IT!

Or would you like me to point out that EVERYONE has lost in this series.

Nanoha lost to Fate several times, she lost to Vita, and she forced a draw with Signum.

By your stupid logic, if Nanoha can't flat-out beat Signum, and she was using Blaster 1 there, then Nanoha must be weak as well.

If, according to you, Signum is weak, then Nanoha is weak as well.

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Both are natural enemies of fire and while it's true they aren't instantly damaging, the fact they can rely on themselves instead of on an outside powersource is a great advantage against stuff that can shut down Fire's combustion

You fail. Don't you know that usually, it's Fire that beats Wind? Also, unless the Wind is strong enough, it usually just fan the Fire stronger. As for Lighting? It can still produce fire. In fact, using Lightning on Fire won't put it out. If anything, it just make the fire stronger.

It depends on the setting, in Nanohaverse fire is purely offensive but lacks dynamism (unlike other series where Fire can be manipulated into a myriad of creative and effective ways, Signum and Agito just get conformed with throwing fireballs and flamethrowers ...pretty basic stuff).

On a straight match Fire has an edge, on a battle against skilled elemental users Ice can be pretty dangerous, swift disposition of walls, weapons, and big solid structures can protect the user effectively against flames. Unless the heat of those reach near-lava levels the user will be also vulnerable to throwing ice spikes and the like.

Fire is like that EVEYRYWHERE. And if you bring skilled elemental users into this, guess what? The same argument can be used on you.
Ice casters? Surround them with fire. See if they can cast while choking due to lack of oxygen. Also, skilled fire users can manipulate the shape, making it a whip or a small beam. Not to mention that due to the environment, usually fire is stronger due to abundance of oxygen while ice is a lot weaker due to high temperature. (Unless they're fighting on a sub-zero world)

Playing hit and run with her maybe? You know attacking her but dissapearing before she can counter attack and then tease her a bit. Cypha totally looks like the type of villain who likes to talk a lot and gloat over her abilities. Heck, even prolonging the chat between the two will suffice. But then again, Signum seems to have awakened with a "less talk, more slash" mentality that morning xDU.

Playing hit and run with her at that stage was essentially suicide. It tire Signum out faster, break Laevantein faster due to constant contact with Cypha's skin, not to mention that if you want to hit and run, the hit had to be fast, which mean that it won't do much damage compare to usual, which mean Cypha can just tank all of it. Meaning Signum would got tired, weaponless for absolutely nothing.

It's true Signum attempted to capture Cypha at first but she should have changed strategies once such task proven to be beyond her capabilities. She's not (as much as it pains me to admit) a knight anymore, she's an officer, if an officer can't handle a situation they retire until a way to do that comes out. She took bad desicions and the criminal got away with their goals anyway so in the end she got nearly killed for nothing.

Yeah, and there's innocents nearby. One of the most important duty of an officer is to protect the innocents. Running would mean leaving the trio to Cypha, which is a big no no.

Which should be a signal to stop and aim for a different approach but Signum just got cocky and attempted to beat and capture Cypha with a damaged weapon and a couple of defective spells.

And what do you suggest she do? She's limited in her repertoire - focus on melee, remember? - so there's nothing she can do but attack.

If her main goal is the safety of the kids then tricking the criminal who has proven to be stronger than you into leaving the scene alone could be a damn good resolution to Signum's current dilema.

How? Retreat or luring her away? Cypha would just shrug and take the kids when Signum's not there. Also, Cypha's goals was the kids in the first place. What can make her want to leave?

I know but that's not the point. Just like the Hucks can cancel weight of a magical construct (an ice mountain being put togheter entirely by magic for example), i bet they can't cancel shockwaves provoked by explosions (unless those are Hollywood explosions that somehow doesn't provoke any shocckwaves at all until the plot request xDU). Otherwise i'm still expecting to know how Agito got to block Tohma's Silver Hammer o_oU

The point is that, because Isis's fires were chemicals, the Hucks can't stop it. If you use a spell to start an explosion, what's stopping them from cancelling the spell in the first place?

Yet the only mage decisively defeated by them and nearly "killed" was Signum. Curren didn't even used her Eclipse abilities to trounce Hayate, Vita and Erio xDU That doesn't talk very well of the "Mage KillerS" nor for Signum xDU

How do you know that Curren didn't use one of her skills? The fact that Signum force Cypha into React mode means that she's much stronger that you gave her credit.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Both are natural enemies of fire and while it's true they aren't instantly damaging, the fact they can rely on themselves instead of on an outside powersource is a great advantage against stuff that can shut down Fire's combustion

Take away the mana controlling a wind attack. Poof. No more wind.

Also, fire can maintain constant attacks far easier than ice can.

Fire has pro's and cons, Aki. Not just cons. You have a habit of looking at the pro's of everything else, but only looking at the cons of anything relating to Signum.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

It depends on the setting, in Nanohaverse fire is purely offensive but lacks dynamism (unlike other series where Fire can be manipulated into a myriad of creative and effective ways, Signum and Agito just get conformed with throwing fireballs and flamethrowers ...pretty basic stuff).

On a straight match Fire has an edge, on a battle against skilled elemental users Ice can be pretty dangerous, swift disposition of walls, weapons, and big solid structures can protect the user effectively against flames. Unless the heat of those reach near-lava levels the user will be also vulnerable to throwing ice spikes and the like.

Assuming equal skill and mana level of both casters, fire has the definite edge. Ice spikes can be countered by fire spikes, walls will melt very rapidly and so on.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Playing hit and run with her maybe? You know attacking her but dissapearing before she can counter attack and then tease her a bit. Cypha totally looks like the type of villain who likes to talk a lot and gloat over her abilities. Heck, even prolonging the chat between the two will suffice. But then again, Signum seems to have awakened with a "less talk, more slash" mentality that morning xDU.

It's true Signum attempted to capture Cypha at first but she should have changed strategies once such task proven to be beyond her capabilities. She's not (as much as it pains me to admit) a knight anymore, she's an officer, if an officer can't handle a situation they retire until a way to do that comes out. She took bad desicions and the criminal got away with their goals anyway so in the end she got nearly killed for nothing.

The moment Signum looks away, she gives Cypha an opening to run. You forget that Signum's goal was to halt Cypha. This means giving her an opening to run away is generally not what you are looking for.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Which should be a signal to stop and aim for a different approach but Signum just got cocky and attempted to beat and capture Cypha with a damaged weapon and a couple of defective spells.

Again, how?

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

If her main goal is the safety of the kids then tricking the criminal who has proven to be stronger than you into leaving the scene alone could be a damn good resolution to Signum's current dilema.

Or it gives them an opening to capture, or worse, kill those kids.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

I know but that's not the point. Just like the Hucks can cancel weight of a magical construct (an ice mountain being put togheter entirely by magic for example), i bet they can't cancel shockwaves provoked by explosions (unless those are Hollywood explosions that somehow doesn't provoke any shocckwaves at all until the plot request xDU). Otherwise i'm still expecting to know how Agito got to block Tohma's Silver Hammer o_oU

Thoma wasn't using anti-magic in that battle, if I recall.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Yet the only mage decisively defeated by them and nearly "killed" was Signum. Curren didn't even used her Eclipse abilities to trounce Hayate, Vita and Erio xDU That doesn't talk very well of the "Mage KillerS" nor for Signum xDU

.... yes she did? Those tomes are Eclipse as well, you know? And the anti-magic doesn't extend to just their dividers.

Curren also wasn't as interested in killing RF6 as much as Cypha was. Otherwise she would've stabbed Hayate through the heart rather than the side.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

By the beginning of A's Nanoha was, in fact, weaker than Vita, that's why she received such a horrible beating. The excuse of the cartridges falls flat behind the fact Fate hold herself much better against Vita despite lacking upgrades. Then Signum, who was stronger than both at the time, appeared and stompped Fate quickly.

.... So, you're saying that Nanoha received a major powerup.... by.... doing nothing?

That doesn't even make sense!

Nanoha was defeated by Vita because Vita had the equipment advantage. That's all there is to it. Once the equipment was leveled, Nanoha began trouncing Vita.

Also, I don't know what A's you were watching, but Signum was trashing Fate.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

By StrikerS there's no doubt Nanoha is the stronger of the two ...Vita is still a stron girl but, like Signum, has started to be left behind by the flow of time and the quick progress of the other characters.

Oh, yes. Sure. Let's just ignore her epic last stand against the most well armored and powerfully defended structure in the entire cradle while having a goddamn hole in her chest.

Sure.

[WarpObscura]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Hitting Cypha with a tree is going to be about as effective as hitting her with Laevatein was.

Is it? Laevatein is a Device, not a purely mundane item like a tree. I wouldn't be surprised if the Eclipse had a part to play by inflicting damage on Laevatein's magical component, something it wouldn't to a fully mundane object.

[Keroko]

Partially. Remember that Eclipse also toughens up the infected. Combine the two and you see why Laevateine shattered. The magic that powered it and was critical in making it more than just a sword vanished, thus a steel sword hit a body capable of resisting far greater attacks.

*crack* was the result.

[Nanya01]

Besides, wasn't it stated that Laevantein would work better in an AMF than any of Nanoha or Fate's abilities simply because it was a steel sword?

Was right there in the manga.

So, either Laevantein is a steel sword that has magic to make it stronger, or it's a magic blade and it wouldn't work in AMF situations anyway.

Cypha is just that tough. Signum chopped her arm off, Laevantein got cracked.

Signum sliced Zest across his body and Laevantein was okay.

Let's not forget that devices are broken once a season anyway.

Season 1 - Bardiche and RH broke when clashing against each other over the Jewel Seed.

A's - Graf Eisen befriended Raising Heart and Laevantein sliced Bardiche in half, cracked the axe-head and forced extensive repairs on it.

StrikerS - Zest broke Gigant-form Graf Eisen using his full drive when he wasn't unisoned with Agito anymore. Raising Heart started to break apart when Nanoha was doing Blaster 3 Starlight Breaker. Plus I think the manga has both Laevantein and Raising Heart breaking apart when Signum and Nanoha fought to that "inconclusive end" of their first fight. You know, the one where they've got torn clothes, cuts, bruises and blood flowing freely and the two most savage grins they ever showed, ever?

Force - Laevantein gets broken by Cypha.

[CrowKenobi]

Okay, I'm going to have to ask everyone to take a step back and breathe deeply and stop this silly circular argument. In fact, I'm going to start treating any more instances of said argument similar to a shipping argument and start deleting any I come across. It's high time to just move on...

This thread will be locked for a while and in the future, please report any post that brings this silly argument up and it will be dealt with.