2013-01-15, 03:55 | Link #81 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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2013-01-15, 04:13 | Link #82 | |
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However, this is why I brought those fallacies to begin with, even if they contradict each other. There's an implication that there are only two sides to begin with (when in reality, there are multiple approaches), or that the correct solution lies in between just because it happens to be there. It's very dangerous to assume these things. I don't think we can ever afford to stop thinking, regardless of your position. And thus, that's why logic is important. But then again logic is not a means to an end either...
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2013-01-15, 06:10 | Link #83 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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Hmm.....
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2013-01-15, 06:26 | Link #84 | |
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However, there needs to be some kind of standards that need to be upheld. It's nice to say all opinions are valid and all forms of expression are equal, but reality is not as graceful. Yes, one could say that a lot of us aren't familiar with Japan and lack context. This is true. You can't enforce standards on others like that from a point of ignorance. But at the same time it doesn't mean that if something isn't repulsive by your standards it isn't offensive as well. So if I can't judge Japan, I'll have to use a cleaner example from something I'm more familiar with... In general, subjectivity tends to fail at the most extreme of situations and that tends to be where things are more unstable and a more "objective" (yes i use that term lightly) can help. I mean if an American cartoon or show had racist overtones, I wouldn't go "Oh non-Americans don't understand the nature of the race relations in the country. You can't judge us!" Bonus points if it's old racist propaganda, oh which works and caters to its target audience. Uh-oh. And in a twisted way this would be true. I can't objectively prove that racism is wrong, after all. And this strangely requires one to put their foot down a bit more and impose some standards. You might accuse me of using extreme examples, but there's definitely a line where I can call something unacceptable or "trash" based on my standards, can't I?
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2013-01-15, 06:27 | Link #85 | |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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Or maybe it is not weird, but rather the nature of these discussions in the first place, which gives more importance to how people present themselves.
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2013-01-15, 06:37 | Link #86 | ||
Classics never age
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Italy
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2013-01-15, 06:38 | Link #87 | |||
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I do think HOW you say it does matter. In fact, I actively go harder on people that may agree with me but said it in a terrible tone. Yes, I do believe presentation matters. Crappy presentation = no effort. If you're using shitty, snarky one liners as a rebuttal, you're not really worth discussing with anyways. However, my final point is that I'd rather have someone say something meaningful in a poorer tone than someone say nothing of value at all. I would ignore the later completely. Quote:
Is the conclusion the only thing that matters? Quote:
Should have just called it a crappy analogy. Then you could make fun of me still.
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2013-01-15, 11:34 | Link #91 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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The point is that inflammatory, absolutely-worded statements interfere with people's ability to interact logically in the first place. Very often these topics which are supposed to be the subject of "logical discourse" are emotionally charged, even (especially) on the side trying to make absolute/declarative statements. The point is that by making obnoxious, unprovable absolute statements of opinion, what you are far more likely to get is not any logical counterargument but rather blindly negative emotional reactions. I would call the idea of anybody pretending that they're only interested in "logical" arguments here highly disingenuous in the first place. Human beings are not robots, there will never be any such thing as an actual person who fully embraces "objective" logic and is not bound by their own self-interest. Precisely because it is impossible that people would be interested in solely logical discourse, you should not bother pretending. The reason why it is more logical to admit that your beliefs are merely subjective opinions (and acting accordingly) is because that fact is true. Starting from more epistemologically accurate premises, it is more likely that you will reach truthful conclusions. Tossing out your opinions as if they are hard factual truths and then implying "oh, it should be obvious that I am just speaking from my personal perspective" is absolutely disingenuous because then everybody else has to waste their time first proving that your opinion is subjective before they can start exploring anything genuinely interesting about it. |
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2013-01-15, 13:43 | Link #92 | |||
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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The advantage is to stick to the subject you're debating and not confuse people into thinking you're proselytizing or putting them down for thinking differently. Less hostility, more discussion on the subject at hand, and I generally also find people will be more open to your way of thinking if you remind them you aren't trying to forcibly convert them. Yes, they can be insincere if someone truly is just being a jackass, but that's not what we're discussing, is it? Quote:
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Thing is, I'm all for the debating, exchanging ideas aspect, and in a perfect world I can understand why phrases like 'in my opinion' should be unnecessary. I can sympathize with that viewpoint. This isn't a highly-streamlined super debating paradise, however, and in light of that reality, I think it's actually easier to engage in a debate when you make sure people understand your intentions. Maybe they shouldn't be so quick to judge you negatively if you don't clarify that you're speaking from your viewpoint, I don't really know or care. Fact is, that happens, it's an all too common reality, and I just see it as 'going with the flow,' so to speak. If you want a long and interesting debate, I think it's easier. I also think hostility, whether it's virtual or real, is just tiresome and I try to avoid it unless I think it's warranted. Last edited by ChainLegacy; 2013-01-15 at 14:15. |
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2013-01-15, 14:51 | Link #93 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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There is no way to have an objective truth about this, so why assume anything people have to say about the topic is an absolute truth? I can say something like "the fanservice is distracting to the audience in key scenes" and yet there is no way to prove this or its opposite statement. The self-evidence here is provided by the context. It is completely unnecessary to prove that my statement is subjective. I know it, and they know it. And hey what is the context of the forum in general? We're discussing anime, an art form which in some ways has no right or wrong in any scenario. Why the heck would we ever assume people are speaking with truth on this subject? It is self-evident that what we have to say about an art form is going to be subjective. The only things that are not going to be are concrete details about a show. Anime X has director Y and is made my studio Z. In this scene, character blah destroyed enemy blah. Then whatever they have to say about these things other than that are clearly opinions. I just cannot agree with the idea that this in any way is a confusing matter.
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2013-01-15, 15:02 | Link #94 |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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See, the thing is, you don't have to agree. You're right in what you're saying. It's just the reality of the situation that people are going to misinterpret your tone and, ultimately, you foment less hostility, whether justified or not, by reminding people it's your opinion. In doing so, I find it's easier to stick to the topic at hand.
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2013-01-15, 15:17 | Link #95 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
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Age: 32
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2013-01-15, 16:37 | Link #96 |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Hmm, I suppose we just look at it differently then. It's just not that big of a deal to me, so I've never had a problem adding it in. I think it does contribute to the overall tone of a post, but it obviously can't negate someone insulting/putting down another. For the record, though, I read the thread that this spun off from, and didn't notice any overly forceful tone from your posts, really (which is why I thought this discussion was mostly about qualifying phrases). Perhaps not peachy keen nice, but not too harsh either. Of course, as you now know, I'd add some "imo's" and "personally...'s" to water down the 'emotional impact' a bit
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2013-01-15, 16:52 | Link #97 | |
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Furthermore, the very concept of passing off one's statement as the absolute truth isn't very logical at all. Thus, I don't even consider it a possibility and thus all assertive statements one can make are all conjecture. I have all of human history as "proof". We are but a mere fragment of a species that views this time as a fragment a long period of human history which is a mere fragment of the history the the planet which is a mere fragment of a larger solar system that is just a tiny bit of a galaxy that has billions upon billions of galaxies. The perspective of an individual is so tiny that any one claiming to know the absolute truth about who the universe is not only arrogant, but stupid. And let's just not appeal to the unknown. We can just look at human views of this world over... maybe the last 1000 years? How many times have we been proven wrong? Practically constantly. It is for this reason that all statements made are conjecture. It's why the burden of proof is always on the person that makes the statement. But this means that one has to be be fairly assertive in their own subjective reality, since to them, even if it is biased and clouded, is all that they know. If you can't be sure of your own fragment, then it truly has absolutely no value. This is why I freely admit my own biases towards a show whenever possible, and I don't discount people due to preferences and "biases" as long as it makes internal sense. And this is often why sometimes I don't need to call people out on making absolutist statements because it's rude. I call them on it because it's 99.99999999...% wrong. But like I've said before, logic isn't a means to an end. But it should never be neglected either. I don't think I should lower my standards, but it's certainly worth checking with others on how flawed they really are.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2013-01-15 at 17:06. |
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2013-01-15, 21:30 | Link #98 | |
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Just as there are objective truths which you can determine about the rest of reality, there are any number of objective truths which you can determine about anime. The subjective part of our experiences only concerns how we relate to those objective realities. And there is plenty interesting to be said about the objective realities themselves. For example, let me say that "Strike Witches is a work which communicates themes of faith in one's comrades, accepting one's duty, and also hope and compassion above strict military protocol". While there are elements of interpretation in such a statement, it can also be called clearly objectively true by any straightforward examination. However, at the same time this fact cannot be called self-evident given a (hypothetical) only cursory, dismissive overview of the series. Thus making the potential assertion (and if necessary, elaboration) of it a fruitful exercise for some number of parties interested in anime. Truth excavations of this sort are in fact one of the primary activities of this forum. The people gathered are interested not only in the exchange of opinions ("this anime is shit", "that anime is great", whatever), but factual pieces of knowledge, often in support of those opinions. In fact, I would actually say that the exchange of this factual sort of information is far more important to me personally than any mere sort of opinion. So on one level, maybe I have to ask, why bother even making statements of opinion at all? In fact, by this argument, posters have every right to treat your (or anyone else's) opinion dismissively--if what they are interested in or could potentially be persuaded by are facts, then they have no reason to entertain mere opinions at all. |
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2013-01-15, 22:28 | Link #99 | |||
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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This is the reason I see art as "subjective" because everything comes down to how you relate to it. How you interpret the themes and narrative of a work boil down to personal perception. How well a work communicates those themes and its narrative is also subjective. How much one enjoys the work is subjective. There is very little here that I can see that is an objective truth. I mentioned things like certain story events, or staff information as being examples of objective facts. These forum conversations are of course going to hold agreements and disagreements. What is largely agreed upon may become a truth for sizable amount of people, but not a truth for everybody. Much like how morals are relative to the society, since it takes a sizable amount of people to agree upon certain moral principles to establish such ideas in a society... It is the same for any sort of community of people, including Animesuki. The way we relate to different works can be very different, and my personal truth may in fact be different form the community at large. People should naturally be able to acknowledge that. Of course, credibility for certain ideas is earned by what the community agrees about that is credible. Hence there is nothing wrong with these things being subjective. If you can communicate how your experience relates to something effectively, you can convince others that your experience may be close to truth and we can agree on it. Quote:
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2013-01-16, 03:36 | Link #100 | |
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This is quite different from points that revolve primarily about someone's emotional reaction or judgement of the work's "goodness". One of the key reasons for this difference is the lack of clear objective criteria. For example, consider the "thesis" of the argument that spawned the original thread: that sexual fanservice is unavoidably distracting in action scenes. The foundation for this thesis cannot be derived directly from the "text", because it's about one's reaction to the work -- the actual viewing experience itself. And the thesis itself can be easily attacked on at least two vectors: first, what it is the viewer wants to be able to focus on in said scenes (a presumption), and second, whether the sexual fanservice distracts in that context (a personal reaction). So the whole thing is not about the work, it's about someone's personal expectation of a scene (based on their nature/nurture/training/habits/etc.), and the show's ability to meet that expectation. "Wanted x, got y." By the time you work through all that, you end up with a thesis that's more like this: "If you are watching action scenes and are trying to focus on the technical qualities of the fight, you may find it more difficult to follow said action when the scene also contains sexual fanservice." That's quite different in nature from the original thesis, and entirely different from the earlier statement that is proposing "The work is about z". This is the nature of "objectivity" vs. "subjectivity". That doesn't mean that both sorts of arguments aren't subject to the perspective of the author -- of course they are. But with the former, you can potentially convince people to change their minds with a convincing argument, because all the needed evidence is in the text itself (being exposed by the person presenting the argument). With the latter, at best you can convince people that your perspective has a logic to it, because no amount of logic can necessarily change the person's own emotional reaction, particularly if they had different expectations in the first place. (This is why, if you wrote essays in literature class, you (presumably?) never wrote about whether the work was "good" or "bad", since that is too subjective. Instead, you had to pick an argument about the text and defend that argument. This is why you were trained to remove the subjectivity from the writing in this context; because you were arguing about objective, defensible points in the work itself. You were (again, presumably) graded in said essays based on whether or not you properly supported your arguments with evidence from the text, and not subjective judgement. But if you try to apply the same writing principles when making a fundamentally subjective argument, it all falls apart. In those cases, denying the "self" could be seen by some as fundamentally dishonest; your "objective essay" would be graded "poor" because the thesis is not sufficiently objective in nature. Subjective thesis + objective argumentation = Frequent Failures to communicate tone and intent. I would argue that's poor writing, even if it's "well-written".)
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2013-01-16 at 03:48. |
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