Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Seib9]

Shirou, you ridiculous bastard

[mirakura]

What did Shirou do?

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Actually technically, they come from Avalon. UBW is just what's made from his ideals. The only things that come from UBW are his weapon tracing and 'my body is made of swords' thing. Also, like you avvie & sig

Oh, so Avalon being fused with him is what gives him the raw magic, and his experience forges that into UBW? I could see that being the case, as well. Avalon seems to share the ability of housing a pocket universe, too.

In this theory, Shirou inherits Avalon, summons Saber to activate it, and then subconsciously creates UBW by borrowing from Avalon - he doesn't need any innate ability to do this, but meeting his future self certainly expedites the process. Theoretically then, anyone could have done the same to create a variety of reality marbles and other miracles. That's almost better than the actual holy grail...

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by mirakura

Actually technically, they come from Avalon. UBW is just what's made from his ideals. The only things that come from UBW are his weapon tracing and 'my body is made of swords' thing. Also, like you avvie & sig

Nah they didn't come from Avalon. Avalon helped produce it but it's not literally from Avalon. Avalon turned his affinity to a sword, Shirou having both his Origin and affinity being a sword is the core of UBW. Combined with the fact Shirou living his life as a sword, all of those produce his internal world from which UBW is born.

Shirou's Archery is entirely his mind-set though, it's probably the only thing he's actually proud of.

[Seib9]

Originally Posted by mirakura

What did Shirou do?

He? Nothing, his powers are the ridiculous thing, the "bastard" was just a kind apellative

[mirakura]

Lol, you do know that''s what I mean? His element & origin were changed by Avalon. If they weren't changed, he wouldn't be a 'sword', he'd just be a normal magic user. Yeah UBW was born from the combi of all those things, but it was from his ideal as well, which was the first thing that came to mind Avalon isn't a pocket universe, it's more like a temporary teleporter to that other island. So, when it's used, Saber is transported to Avalon for those few seconds.

Avalon is technically a miracle worker, but it can't do much without it's owner. Really, the reason it changed Shirou's element and origin, was because the fire rebirthed him, as well as cos something like Avalon has the power to rewrite laws. Therefore the reason why it can oppose even true magic. It could actually be an unknown '6th magic', but it's not of Earth, and Nasu hasn't said so, lol. And it still had some of Saber's prana in it. Strange how Shirou still knew reinforcement though. After all, he created tracing, and projection, for him, was tracing prototype. So what does tracing have to do with it? I just thought it was cos, the owner of Avalon does constant reinforcement, but that's just me...

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Shirou doesn't project a bow, he reinforces a piece of wood to produce a bow. It's not the same.

Well, OK, but, even so, there are pots in his shed that he traced years before, which still exist. When Rin sees them, she is astounded that they've not degraded.

Certainly such things are not Noble Phantasms, but Shirou is capable of tracing mundane objects that aren't swords. Further, Archer can trace Rho Aius, which is both an NP and very definitely not a sword....

Originally Posted by mirakura

Actually technically, they come from Avalon. UBW is just what's made from his ideals. The only things that come from UBW are his weapon tracing and 'my body is made of swords' thing. Also, like you avvie & sig

Erm, what?

The only effect Avalon has, if any, was to cause his origin to be "sword" in the first place, and I'm not even sure of that. It certainly doesn't result in the rest of his abilities.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Well, OK, but, even so, there are pots in his shed that he traced years before, which still exist. When Rin sees them, she is astounded that they've not degraded.

Certainly such things are not Noble Phantasms, but Shirou is capable of tracing mundane objects that aren't swords. Further, Archer can trace Rho Aius, which is both an NP and very definitely not a sword....



Erm, what?

The only effect Avalon has, if any, was to cause his origin to be "sword" in the first place, and I'm not even sure of that. It certainly doesn't result in the rest of his abilities.

Did you even read what I said? Seems like your just making an argument for the sake of an argument. I pointed out Nasu stated Shirou is only limited to tracing melee weapons (swords, spears halberds and shields) basically anything a traditional melee knight would use. He can however not trace ranged projectile weapons, such as guns, bows, cannons etc.

[Cherry_Lover]

Except that a pot is pretty obviously not a melee weapon....

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Except that a pot is pretty obviously not a melee weapon....

That's regular graduation air, he does not trace that. It's also mentioned those pots are useless. Less complex items last longer, it's not unique to Shirou to be able to do that. Tracing is, far, far more complex.

He actually learns how to trace much later one, it's a major point in the novel.

[Cherry_Lover]

No, it's not "regular" graduation air. A normal magus could not produce something that lasted for that long, even something as simple as a pot. Hence why Rin was so shocked when she saw them.

Shirou does not and never has done "regular" graduation air. He's never been trained to do so. What he does is always some adaptation of his tracing ability. I'm not saying he could trace a Noble Phantasm bow, but he certainly could trace a normal bow, especially a very simple one.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

No, it's not "regular" graduation air. A normal magus could not produce something that lasted for that long, even something as simple as a pot. Hence why Rin was so shocked when she saw them.

Shirou does not and never has done "regular" graduation air. He's never been trained to do so. What he does is always some adaptation of his tracing ability. I'm not saying he could trace a Noble Phantasm bow, but he certainly could trace a normal bow, especially a very simple one.

I'm pretty certain it is. Graduation air is rare and difficult skill that's why she's shocked. It's also a largely useless skill.

The better the image in the caster's imagination, the more stable and longer lasting the object will be, and it can be further improved by having technical knowledge of its construction, such as a blueprint, or having materials to overlay the desired shape upon

This is why simply objects can last a long time.

Now Tracing is completely different if you knew what Tracing is you'd realise this.

These are the steps for tracing, Shirou NEVER does this before F/SN.

1.Judging the concept of creation
2.Hypothesizing the basic structure
3.Duplicating the composition material
4.Imitating the skill of its making
5.Sympathizing with the experience of its growth
6.Reproducing the accumulated years
7.Excelling every manufacturing process

Shirou doesn't trace those objects because he doesn't have access to the entire lives of those objects. What he does have access to is swords, shields, spears etc. And that's because of UBW. It's also why he can't trace NP of those objects.

[GDB]

I now want to see Archer drop a pot on an enemy's head mid battle.

That is all.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

I'm pretty certain it is. Graduation air is rare and difficult skill that's why she's shocked. It's also a largely useless skill.

Right, so, tell me, how did Shirou learn to use a "rare and difficult" skill so well without even trying?

This is why simply objects can last a long time.

Now Tracing is completely different if you knew what Tracing is you'd realise this.

These are the steps for tracing, Shirou NEVER does this before F/SN.

Exactly, tracing is completely different. It has no connection to "normal" projection. So, there are only two options. Either Shirou just happens to be naturally good at two totally different things which have the same overall result, or else the projection he used to create those pots is a simplified and more instinctive form of the tracing process (remember, Shirou is able to trace things before he really understands the process). And, to me, the second is far more likely than the first.

Shirou doesn't trace those objects because he doesn't have access to the entire lives of those objects. What he does have access to is swords, shields, spears etc. And that's because of UBW. It's also why he can't trace NP of those objects.

Erm, no, Shirou is fully capable of tracing things without access to the full details, he just gets a less-good replica as a result (see: Excalibur). Further, you have no actual evidence that he cannot read the details of a pot or a bow. Those things have far less history behind them, so copying them is therefore a lot simpler.

Also, you have no evidence that the bow Archer uses is one that comes with him as a heroic spirit as opposed to one he traced. It is never mentioned as such anywhere in his profile. Your logic is simply "I'm right, therefore all evidence must obviously fit my opinion", even though the simplest explanation is that he just traced it.

[kenshinstyle]

When Rin saw the pots she was shocked because normal projections doesn't feel as real and stay as long in the world. She immediately thought of it as similar to degradation of true magic or reality marble. So my opinion is that Shirou used tracing but not on the level of UBW tracing NPs since he has not realized his abilities yet and is just using the one spell he is best at unconsciously.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Except that a pot is pretty obviously not a melee weapon....

throw it on a stick and you have a mace lol

[mirakura]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Erm, what?

The only effect Avalon has, if any, was to cause his origin to be "sword" in the first place, and I'm not even sure of that. It certainly doesn't result in the rest of his abilities.

You've only read that post, I elaborated later on :3

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Erm, no, Shirou is fully capable of tracing things without access to the full details, he just gets a less-good replica as a result (see: Excalibur). Further, you have no actual evidence that he cannot read the details of a pot or a bow. Those things have far less history behind them, so copying them is therefore a lot simpler.

Also, you have no evidence that the bow Archer uses is one that comes with him as a heroic spirit as opposed to one he traced. It is never mentioned as such anywhere in his profile. Your logic is simply "I'm right, therefore all evidence must obviously fit my opinion", even though the simplest explanation is that he just traced it.

Excalibur is a different case, as he can't trace its full power even if he had the blueprints/used structural grasp. We've had this argument before...

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Right, so, tell me, how did Shirou learn to use a "rare and difficult" skill so well without even trying?



Exactly, tracing is completely different. It has no connection to "normal" projection. So, there are only two options. Either Shirou just happens to be naturally good at two totally different things which have the same overall result, or else the projection he used to create those pots is a simplified and more instinctive form of the tracing process (remember, Shirou is able to trace things before he really understands the process). And, to me, the second is far more likely than the first.



Erm, no, Shirou is fully capable of tracing things without access to the full details, he just gets a less-good replica as a result (see: Excalibur). Further, you have no actual evidence that he cannot read the details of a pot or a bow. Those things have far less history behind them, so copying them is therefore a lot simpler.

Also, you have no evidence that the bow Archer uses is one that comes with him as a heroic spirit as opposed to one he traced. It is never mentioned as such anywhere in his profile. Your logic is simply "I'm right, therefore all evidence must obviously fit my opinion", even though the simplest explanation is that he just traced it.

Actually no the onus of evidence is on you because we know and it was stated Shirou can only trace objects that are already stored in his reality marble. That's why it says Shirou only has one power and that is not to create weapons but to create a world filled with infinite swords.

That it itself means he can't trace everything because pots aren't stored in UBW and Nasu has stated precisely what the limitations of UBW actually are.

Shirou has the basic graduation air down because that's linked to his reality marble but it's still just graduation air. That's why he can only imitate the surface of things e.g pots he can't actually project anything more complex and even those are flawed. He does not trace pots because he can't trace pots but he can make simple objects out of prana that's precisely why you never see him project complex objects.

[Jaden]

The pot is made of a million microscopic swords.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by kenshinstyle

When Rin saw the pots she was shocked because normal projections doesn't feel as real and stay as long in the world. She immediately thought of it as similar to degradation of true magic or reality marble. So my opinion is that Shirou used tracing but not on the level of UBW tracing NPs since he has not realized his abilities yet and is just using the one spell he is best at unconsciously.

Exactly. I'm not saying that it's on the level of UBW, but it's the same basic principle. Normal magus projection works differently, and produces things which simply can't last that long.

Originally Posted by mirakura

Excalibur is a different case, as he can't trace its full power even if he had the blueprints/used structural grasp. We've had this argument before...

Well, yes, he also has issues with the replication process. But, my point is that he nevertheless managed to produce a partial replica.

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

Actually no the onus of evidence is on you because we know and it was stated Shirou can only trace objects that are already stored in his reality marble. That's why it says Shirou only has one power and that is not to create weapons but to create a world filled with infinite swords.

Except that he is shown specifically to do otherwise....

That it itself means he can't trace everything because pots aren't stored in UBW and Nasu has stated precisely what the limitations of UBW actually are.

Shirou has the basic graduation air down because that's linked to his reality marble but it's still just graduation air. That's why he can only imitate the surface of things e.g pots he can't actually project anything more complex and even those are flawed. He does not trace pots because he can't trace pots but he can make simple objects out of prana that's precisely why you never see him project complex objects.

Except that, again, what Shirou did with those pots was not just normal Graduation Air. It was either ridiculously high-level Graduation Air, to the point that Rin was astounded that it was even possible, or else it was something totally different but also very powerful.

And, no, those pots weren't "flawed". If they were, then they would have disappeared. Whatever mechanism he used to produce them, it was not something a normal magus would expect to be capable of.

Either way, it is entirely plausible for Archer to be able to project a normal, non-NP bow. That doesn't mean it is stored in UBW, but he can project it.