Split Cour vs. Traditional Two Cour

[Arya]

Since I'm not sure I fully got the differences, I will ask, is Shirayuki-hime the norm or the exception? (And by the way I honestly don't remember exactly how it ended. But I don't remember anything conclusive).

There are any titles we can name that fall in this same set? Owari no Seraph and GATE I'd say no(despite I dropped Owari no Seraph early on I kept reading the 3d now and then to see if it ever got better).
I'm watching Asterisk Wars and I'm pretty sure it won't end in a manner to fit it. And If I have to bet I'd say Fafner didn't either, but can't really say.

In any case I think it's more a matter of being aired in the most unfavorable period of the year (as much as for the ongoing series) so these titles will have the chances to be voted only after a whole year.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Haak

What would the first cour of Shirayuki-hime look like if there was no announcement of a second until the end? - Unknown with very large standard deviations.

I disagree. I think most viewers would have been fine with the show ending the way it did after the first installment. It ends conclusively enough with any left-over plot threads resolvable by reading the manga. That kind of ending is pretty typical of anime adaptations.

Originally Posted by Arya

Since I'm not sure I fully got the differences, I will ask, is Shirayuki-hime the norm or the exception? (And by the way I honestly don't remember exactly how it ended. But I don't remember anything conclusive).

Really?

Spoiler:

There's a big confession scene that's sealed with a kiss. In terms of anime romances that's very conclusive.

Compare it to the end of the first season of Nodame Cantabile where

Spoiler:

Chiaki asks Nodame to go to Europe with him with nary a confession nor a kiss in the entire twenty-two episodes. (Well, Nodame does declare her love for Chiaki in the very first episode, but it's more for comedic purposes than a serious romantic development. He certainly doesn't respond positively to her declaration!)

Split-cours are still the exception, but they have because more common since the recession. They let producers hedge their bets on whether to invest in another installment while they see how the first season fares.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Split-cours are still the exception, but they have because more common since the recession. They let producers hedge their bets on whether to invest in another installment while they see how the first season fares.

I don't think that's quite the case. Split cours are, to my knowledge, announced in one go. The only difference between them and a typical 2 cour show is that there's a break in the middle. Often this is used for the studio to catch up on work and marketing purposes. Perhaps there is a degree of "if the first half fails to catch on, let's not invest too much later," but they're still locked into another cour (of which some episodes are probably already done) which could be a bad investment if the series never caught on. I don't know of any shows that had its second cour canceled after doing poorly in its first half.

Contrast this with a typical one cour anime with no official plans for a sequel where if it does well, it gets made and otherwise it doesn't. That's how producers "hedge" their bets in today's industry normally.

[Arya]

^ Buddy Complex is the only series that comes in mind thinking about split cour, second cour has been shortened to two episodes.

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Really?

Spoiler:

There's a big confession scene that's sealed with a kiss. In terms of anime romances that's very conclusive.

Spoiler for Shirayuki:

Yes, in terms of romance generally I'd agree, but within the story, due to it being a also a shoujo, that's something expected, they love each other is something we knew, but the real problem is their status gap. Basically the sole fact that they declared their love doesn't resolve anything, Shirayuki is still just an herbalist and Zen a prince, and due to the nature of Zen's realm, (but also and especially to Zen and Shirayuki way of thinking) they need to work together to resolve this gap to be lovers, with Zen's brother, with Zen parents and so ultimately with the class system they live in.

That's where probably the split cour nature of the show comes into play in my head, if it was supposed to be a one cour series I maybe would have thought differently, but knowing there's another cour to come I can't see their expressing their feelings as conclusive, but just the first stone.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I disagree. I think most viewers would have been fine with the show ending the way it did after the first installment. It ends conclusively enough with any left-over plot threads resolvable by reading the manga. That kind of ending is pretty typical of anime adaptations.

Agreed. If Bones had been told that Akagami no Shirayuki-hime was going to be an one cour/one season show, with no guarantee of any more beyond that, I think it's extremely likely that what we had this past Summer would be exactly the same. The show could work very well as a complete first season with no guarantees of any future season. The ending is indeed conclusive enough on the core aspects of the show - Romance and Coming of Age.


I also disagree with the following point.

Originally Posted by Haak

What would the first cour of Shirayuki-hime look like if it's a single two cour season? - No difference.

In my experience, most anime shows of this type - single two cour season - Don't hit a good stopping point at exactly the mid-way point of the show. Whereas Shirayuki-hime makes its first cour ending be a good stopping point, no less conclusive than what many single cour season shows are.

If Shirayuki-hime was a single two cour season, I could easily imagine Bones going with a different approach for Episodes 10 through 13, and particularly Episode 12. It could lead to a significant difference.


One thing I want to bring up here is a compromise idea that felix suggested in the Community Awards Social Group. Here it is:

Originally Posted by felix

I've put some more thought into this and, for better or worse, I'm gonna go with my feeling from earlier that yes split cour shows should not count for key story awards but I feel like we are maybe giving them the boot a little too hard and would be fine for them to be eligible for awards where watching something to completion doesn't necessarily mean much of anything, such as categories where the world plays a bigger role then the characters themselves or its just about elements in the writing such as humor and less about the beginning to end route.

Specifically I see it like this:

Eligible Categories

-{A2}- [Best Visuals & Animation]
-{B1}- [Best Action-Adventure]
-{B2}- [Best Fantasy & Supernatural]
-{B3}- [Best Science Fiction]
-{B4}- [Best Drama]
-{B5}- [Best Romance]
-{B6}- [Best Comedy]
-{B7}- [Best Slice of Life]
-{B8}- [Best Sports Series]
-{D5}- [Best World Setting]
-{D6}- [Best Credits Theme]
-{D7}- [Best Soundtrack]
-{D8}- [Best Ongoing Series]

NOT Eligible

-{A1}- [Best Storyline & Plot]
-{C1}- [Best TV Series]
-{C2}- [Best OVA]
-{C3}- [Best Movie]
-{D1}- [Best Female Lead]
-{D2}- [Best Male Lead]
-{D3}- [Best Antagonist]
-{D4}- [Best Side-Character]

It should be noted that felix's idea here could also be applied to Ongoing Series of all sorts, opening them up to more awards - Just not the NOT eligible ones listed above.

So if, for example, you consider One-Punch Man the best Comedy or best Action-Adventure show of 2015, felix's compromise idea here might be something you'd want to consider.

[SeijiSensei]

@Arya
Your reply about Shirayuki would be more compelling if anime were thought of by their production committees as stand-alone works of art. In reality, anime often plays the role of an advertisement to push sales of the adapted material and ancillary merchandise. Leaving a story with many unresolved threads like the ones you mention can often be intentionally designed to get viewers to go out and buy the manga to see how things played out.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I don't think that's quite the case. Split cours are, to my knowledge, announced in one go. The only difference between them and a typical 2 cour show is that there's a break in the middle.

Shirayuki's second cour was announced on the day the first episode aired. Information about the cast and other aspects of the first cour first appeared in April. Now they may have decided to shoot two cours at the outset, but they kept their cards close to the chest.

Off topic from the discussion about the Awards:
On the other hand, the production committee obviously had no idea how well the show would fare when they announced the second season on July 6th, making the "hedging their bets" argument inapplicable as well. That leaves me wondering what the rationale truly is for split cours. I watched a lot of weekly series between 2006 and 2010 or so and not once do I recall a split-cour release. Shows either ran for a full two cours of 24 to 26 episodes or sometimes longer, or for a single 11-13 episode season. Split-cour productions seem to have sprouted up after 2010. I always assumed that the economic downturn in 2008-2009 was a major reason for this development, just as we saw a subsequent rise in single-cour releases and a decline in longer shows. If hedging isn't the reason for split-cour releases, what do you suppose might be?

As for felix's suggestion, I don't see much of an argument in favor of excluding a show like Shirayuki-hime from awards like best character. I'd expect a number of us might nominate Shirayuki in the "best female character" category, and I wouldn't really need to wait until next year to make that judgement. It might be more relevant for some genres like action/adventure where the events of the second cour could result in a character being stronger or weaker than he or she appeared in the first round. But for shows with a strong slice-of-life feel like Shirayuki-hime, I think it is pretty unlikely that the events of the second cour would make her less strong-willed, competent, or intelligent than she already appears.

[Reckoner]

^

Strange that they announced it on the first episode, but anyhow... I think split cour is mostly meant to give the studio an easier schedule, and to keep the show in the public mind for a longer period of time for marketing purposes (i.e. Aldnoah Zero).

As for the other categories, I'm not so sure. Don't people's opinions on characters change over time? Granted it happened fast enough in a show like Parasyte, but characters can change A LOT over the course of a show. And it can go both ways too. There's plenty of characters I liked at first become boring and vice versa.

[IceHism]

The most obvious use of split cour is to lessen fatigue. There is no use for it in terms of marketing as the second cour has already been decided. With the way anime works, I'd assume that most people would have already put the show out of their mind after the first cour anyways dues to the rapid nature of anime. The studios work long hours and it helps improve work conditions for the animators and other staff members.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

As for the other categories, I'm not so sure. Don't people's opinions on characters change over time? Granted it happened fast enough in a show like Parasyte, but characters can change A LOT over the course of a show. And it can go both ways too. There's plenty of characters I liked at first become boring and vice versa.

OK, you convinced me. By the same token I can see an argument for only letting a true spilt cour compete in the year it ends. If the show is planned for 24 episodes in twelve-episode sets, then shouldn't it be treated the same way as a continuous 24-episode series?

When Cross Game aired in 2009, it might have been nominated even though it was incomplete. Fans of the show had to wait until all fifty episodes were aired in 2010.

I'd probably treat any further seasons after a split cour, unlikely though they may be, as sequels and let them compete individually.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

If hedging isn't the reason for split-cour releases, what do you suppose might be?

FWIW, the main reason is production scheduling and the shortage of (good) animators. To try to keep up the pace of a weekly show in this market requires a ton of outsourcing, and the quality of your product will go down (as even the good outsourcing companies are overworked). Split-cour allows a smaller group of core people to cover more episodes between themselves since they have more time. The whole thing is still treated as one giant production and it doesn't stop at all during the break, they just have time to "stock up" on some episodes. It's theoretically possible that they could pull the plug after the first cour, but the airslot has probably already been booked, so there'd have to be pretty exceptional circumstances I'd guess.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I disagree. I think most viewers would have been fine with the show ending the way it did after the first installment. It ends conclusively enough with any left-over plot threads resolvable by reading the manga. That kind of ending is pretty typical of anime adaptations.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Agreed. If Bones had been told that Akagami no Shirayuki-hime was going to be an one cour/one season show, with no guarantee of any more beyond that, I think it's extremely likely that what we had this past Summer would be exactly the same. The show could work very well as a complete first season with no guarantees of any future season. The ending is indeed conclusive enough on the core aspects of the show - Romance and Coming of Age.

In an ideal world, they could adapt it the same way but we can't make rules based on what is extremely likely for just one example. It's not just Akagami no Shirayuki-hime. I can't pretend that GATE is designed to be two separate seasons what with its first cour stopping point. I can't accept the idea that first cours of Durarara!!, FSN: UBW and Aldnoah.Zero were made with the possibility that there would be no continuation. And at most I would consider Tokyo Ghoul and Owari no Seraph to be crappy adaptations if there was no continuation. Shirayuki-hime is the only exception I can fathom but it's like I said before: You're right in that there is a blur between single two cour shows, split cour shows and multiple seasons but there definitely is a more significant gap between second and third that allows us to draw a line in the sand there rather than anywhere else.

(As far as I'm aware of all the split cour shows I've mentioned above are the only relevant ones).

I also disagree with the following point.

In my experience, most anime shows of this type - single two cour season - Don't hit a good stopping point at exactly the mid-way point of the show. Whereas Shirayuki-hime makes its first cour ending be a good stopping point, no less conclusive than what many single cour season shows are.

If Shirayuki-hime was a single two cour season, I could easily imagine Bones going with a different approach for Episodes 10 through 13, and particularly Episode 12. It could lead to a significant difference.

There's no reason to think they would just because other shows fail to hit a good stopping point. Whether or not a show hits a stopping point at the end of a first cour is usually dependent on a director or writer's habit. Shirayuki-hime's director is Masahiro Ando and if you look at Ando's other works (Blast of Tempest, Hanasaku Iroha) he actually does have a tendency of finishing arcs at the halfway point. It's just that Shirayuki-hime's feels more conclusive due to way the original manga. The very first episode also felt like a very conclusive stand alone episode but we wouldn't say that it was designed to be one episode and the rest of it a second season.

One thing I want to bring up here is a compromise idea that felix suggested in the Community Awards Social Group. Here it is:

It should be noted that felix's idea here could also be applied to Ongoing Series of all sorts, opening them up to more awards - Just not the NOT eligible ones listed above.

So if, for example, you consider One-Punch Man the best Comedy or best Action-Adventure show of 2015, felix's compromise idea here might be something you'd want to consider.

Yeah, honestly, the more I think about it the more it strikes me as a bad one. It already generated a disagreement with Seijisensei on what an Ongoing Series should be eligible for and I can only imagine the confusion and disagreement that a lot of voters will get about it.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Haak

There's no reason to think they would just because other shows fail to hit a good stopping point.

There is value in hitting a good stopping point when you are in fact at a clear stopping point. For a split-cour show - The final episode of the first cour is a clear stopping point, as its the final episode that will be airing for a few months. For a single season two-cour show - Episode 12/13 is not necessarily a clear stopping point, because you're going to have another episode airing next week.

It makes all the sense in the world to me that an anime studio may choose to approach these two formats differently when it comes to the mid-point episodes. So I still disagree with your statement here...

Originally Posted by Haak

What would the first cour of Shirayuki-hime look like if it's a single two cour season? - No difference.

No, that's not necessarily the case. There may well have been a difference, as I think it would be completely sensible for Bones to approach the two formats differently.


Mind you, this is a relatively minor point in the wider discussion, and I could understand it not being a decisive factor for you. It's just that I felt compelled to explain myself further on this particular point.

[scififan]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There is value in hitting a good stopping point when you are in fact at a clear stopping point. For a split-cour show - The final episode of the first cour is a clear stopping point, as its the final episode that will be airing for a few months. For a single season two-cour show - Episode 12/13 is not necessarily a clear stopping point, because you're going to have another episode airing next week.

It makes all the sense in the world to me that an anime studio may choose to approach these two formats differently when it comes to the mid-point episodes. So I still disagree with your statement here...

I think it's about anime studio's financial risk.
If anime studio make one go, they have to shoulder higher cost. The oldest splot cour anime, as I remember, was Those Who Hunt Elves. The anime is based on a niche manga market. It's entertaining, but it lacked enough audience.

The split cour allowed a company to stop production, if the show is not popular enough. It also allows a company to bring many more anime adapation from niche manga. A success of the first cour also allows the time for kickstarter of a second cour. It's sad that some shows didn't have enough support for the second cour. I think it was what happended to Sankerea.