[Manga] Naruto Chapter 541 Discussion

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

You know it's going to be shown sooner or later that Naruto's presence is necessary in this war.

That's my point in the first place, of course it's going to happen eventually but it doesn't change what Naruto is doing now, he's just going to get lucky.
Don't you think it would be better if Naruto was forced to go through all that if he had a real and urgent reason for doing so?

you and many others think his view seems like idealistic, hippy, granola bullsh**t while Raikage seems like the ultimate example of reason but a large point of the story is that inflexible, purely calculating reasoning like the Raikage demonstrates is why world is in its current state

1/No I don't, I'd rather have Naruto with some kind of idealistic, hippy, cheesy plan than what's happening here : Naruto charging like a bull with no plan at all and waiting for fate to conveniently bail him out when things go wrong.
2/When you reach the point where the Raikage of all people is seen in comparison as an (ultimate!) example of calculating reasoning you should know something is rotten in the state of Animesuki.

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-My bad, I forgot I have to be specific about these things. Naruto's answer was that Jiraiya trusted that one day, when people are able to truly understand one another, there will be peace. Naruto will in turn believe in that claim and work towards making it a reality. His plan in-so-far isn't complete (Hell, even Jiraiya didn't have one for his) but he knows stopping Madara is step #1.

Could you pinpoint for me a plan in this sentence? Even the beginning of one?
"One day people will truly understand one another" isn't a plan in any shape or form, not in the long term and certainely not in the short term which is what we were talking about : ergo Naruto is charging into the fight right now without a plan, without a clue and without the slightest idea of what he's doing.
He just refuses to stay out of the fight, period.

-Ok, I won't dwell on this too much because who's throwing a tantrum during a war-time period is barely important in the grand scheme of things. Anyway, by the very things you just said, aren't the Raikage and Naruto acting the same way, just for different personal reasons? To me, their entire arguments boiled down to:
[...]
So to me, its a pot calling the cettle black issue. Naruto's frutrated because he is being forbidden from helping those closest to him while A is frustrated since he cannot control the Jinchuuriki. Sad truth is, both want the same thing but cannot see eye-to-eye.

First the behavior of the main character is more important than this background war, secondly no they are not acting the same way.
The Raikage is doing his duty where Naruto is acting on a whim, the Raikage isn't the one who started attacking his own side. The Raikage has every reason to be furious since those two are commiting treason. The Raikage ordering them to follow the orders given by the Alliance isn't the same than Naruto telling them to fuck off.

-That is not how anyone who is close to Naruto will see it. The Rakage can tell them all the pretty words he wants after the event has come to pass, but all they will hear is "I. Killed. Naruto and B". The moment A decided the only course of action available to him is the death of those who sought nothing more than to try and help win this war, he dug his own grave in moral superiority. Naruto is likely aware that A is focusing all his ambition to stopping this 1 war, but in doing so he is likely going to cause 100 more. Certainly more deaths than the current 40K.

You still don't get it. Even if their victory brought a thousands more wars it would be worth it nonetheless.
If Madara wins eveything.is.over. He will virtually become a god and enslave all of humanity.

The only thing he needs for that are the Jinchuuriki so if they are going to refuse a direct order, desert and attack their own comrades and leaders they best should have a damned good reason to endanger the entire world.
... And when the reason is solely that Naruto can't stand the idea that his friends could die fighting it's just ludicrous.

Kishomoto could have made him sense the Zetsu hidden among the Alliance with his ability to sense evil, this alone would have made Naruto's presence absolutely necessary and made ok the way he is acting.
But no, his reason is "oh noes my friends could be hurt!"

Originally Posted by Tettsuo

Naruto makes a very simply and very valid point. If everyone you're trying to save is dead, what the point? It's a very honest and realistic point.

That's not exactly the point Naruto made and that's not possible anyways, the people they are trying to save are everybody on the planet, not just those 80 thousands ninja fighting.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

That's not exactly the point Naruto made and that's not possible anyways, the people they are trying to save are everybody on the planet, not just those 80 thousands ninja fighting.

To be fair, if the 80,000 die as well as Naruto and Kirabi, then still Madara wins, because in just a few years (10 or so) he will be able to reclaim the Bijuu, and since the vast majority of the elite shinobi will be dead, there will be no real defense to stop him. (This is partially why I found it funny that A went out of his way to comment on Minato's delaying tactics when, in reality, all A is doing is delaying Madara's victory if he strikes down Naruto and Kirabi).

So, you either defeat Madara now, or you lose. Since A and the alliance seem to have no actual strategy for defeating Madara (they are wasting their troops on the obvious diversionary Zetsu-army), shouldn't it be time he starts looking for alternatives, even if they are alternatives supplied by an idiot?

(That being said, Kirabi not Naruto will be using speech-no-jutsu next chapter.)

[Hunter]

But that's a strawman James, this wasn't the point A and Naruto were discussing.
Naruto specifically said that winning the war was meaningless if those people died and that's just insane.
Raikage doesn't intent to delay Madara, he wants to kill him right now and keep the Jins out of it. Since they refuse to stay away he intends to kill one of them and keep fighting so even if they lose Madara doesn't win by default immediately.

The Alliance has (or had) a strategy, it's not like they can afford to ignore the Zetsu, they have to kill them. While a better plan is surely necessary it's not like Naruto even attempted to provide one.
You act as if Naruto proposed an alternative plan but he didn't, as I said if at least Naruto had tried to explain to them what he was going to do (and I do mean anything no matter how cheesy) and how it was better than hidding then the situation wouldn't be so stupid but he did nothing of the sort.

[james0246]

^I'm not trying to be misleading; I simply don't see how the Raikage's stance is really tenable. A has said that he will sacrifice everything to save the world, and while that sounds great (and is great if it actually worked), sacrificing all of his pieces will simply give the world a few extra years before it is "destroyed". So, his options and ideas suck. Delaying tactics are no longer relevant now that 40,000+ troops are dead, and if the other 40,000 falls, then there will be nothing left for the future (10 years is a long time, and Hanabi is pretty damn cool, but I question whether she can take on Madara in 10 years...).

This war is the defining moment, and A even contemplating killing one of the Jinchuuriki is idiocy.

I don't really care if Naruto has no ideas (when has he ever? Hell, when has anyone ever had a legitimate idea for world peace?), I simply disagree with not using him. Do I hate how Kishimoto drew him into the war? Of course. It is silly and stupid. But, his basic stance is still correct (even if it is superficial), and A's rejection for the Jinchuuriki's involvement is short-sighted and potentially dangerous.

[HasuMasu]

i'm not sure what A wants to achieve other than postponing the dentist appointment by killing naruto

if he can't find a way to best madara NOW, he will be skrewed over in 10 years

where he will be even less able to defeat madara, who is, well, an actual ninja who sneaks around in black

[lucasd]

The plan of hiding two powerful ninja was stupid in the first place (you don't hide a weapon you use it, or at least wait for the right moment), especially if it against their will (and they would be found, but madara needed not to do so, he knows naruto). Second
diverging main forces to stop this weapons, is so stupid that is beyond reason.

If madara sense (it would super easy) where the battle is, he only needs to go there to pick up the weakened "beasts".

And about saving even one person, anyone remember Neo from matrix, he was one idiotic person. Naruto at least makes a valid point (if by his not presence, war is lost or won with high casulties, alliance fail nevertheless, cos they won't be any tools to save peoples. Madara won't be stupid not to run if he won't find beast. And as we seen 3 persons now make the entire army, so it is not like a RL war)

[DeDe]

Originally Posted by james0246

(That being said, Kirabi not Naruto will be using speech-no-jutsu next chapter.)

Does anyone think we are finally building to Kirabi exiting stage left? The next chapter should be the finish of the A and Kirabi backstory. After that, his story should be complete. Since I assume Madara will still need the 9 and 8 tails, Naruto needs to be the last jin left.

[HasuMasu]

Originally Posted by DeDe

Does anyone think we are finally building to Kirabi exiting stage left? The next chapter should be the finish of the A and Kirabi backstory. After that, his story should be complete. Since I assume Madara will still need the 9 and 8 tails, Naruto needs to be the last jin left.

no doubt he'll have to die at some point, if they extract the 8 tails without killing him that would be so lame

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

^I'm not trying to be misleading; I simply don't see how the Raikage's stance is really tenable. A has said that he will sacrifice everything to save the world, and while that sounds great (and is great if it actually worked), sacrificing all of his pieces will simply give the world a few extra years before it is "destroyed". So, his options and ideas suck. Delaying tactics are no longer relevant now that 40,000+ troops are dead, and if the other 40,000 falls, then there will be nothing left for the future (10 years is a long time, and Hanabi is pretty damn cool, but I question whether she can take on Madara in 10 years...).

I don't think you try to be misleading, I think you don't realize your reasoning is backward : you already know from a reader perspective that they can't win the war without Naruto and thus interpret his stance as fighting to the last man (if necessary) without the Jinchuuriki as a loosing stance doomed to fail because even in the best of case Madara would survive and do it again anyway.
That is to say you use a meta-knowledge that the vilain won't fall without an intervention from the heroe as an inherent fault in the Alliance's plan whereas it's something they cannot be aware off without breaking the 4th wall.

I don't really care if Naruto has no ideas (when has he ever? Hell, when has anyone ever had a legitimate idea for world peace?), I simply disagree with not using him. Do I hate how Kishimoto drew him into the war? Of course. It is silly and stupid. But, his basic stance is still correct (even if it is superficial), and A's rejection for the Jinchuuriki's involvement is short-sighted and potentially dangerous.

I'm not talking about an idea for world peace, I'm talking about an idea for what to do right now. As far as they know Madara could teleport behind Naruto, touch him and teleport away within the next second. Thanks for playing, enjoy the end of the world.
Naruto should have a very good reason to balance this fact is what I'm saying -and I fail to see how A (and all the others Kage minus Tsunade)'s rejection is short-sighted since from the characters's perspective :
Pros : One more Kage-level fighter in the field.
Cons : If he's caught the world ends.

The only argument so far I have seen to counter this fact is "oh but there will be a good reason soon " which is the problem to begin with.

[Fran~]

@Hunter: Kishi shows Naruto as fast as the fastest ninja alive, Madara tried to touch Minato, he couldn't make it. If you give Naruto the intel about how Madara fights, you are way more clever than just yelling some orders.

Madara could take Naruto everytime he was with him (when they were chasing Sasuke before his fight with Itachi) and when Madara told Naruto about Uchiha's past.

I don't think that Kishi would use that tactic, because Madara wasn't capable to use it with Minato.

Everybody thought how in the world Naruto would fight Pain, but in the end Kishi granted Naruto with Sage training. Madara can't beat Naruto, he is plot protected.

The main problem of the alliance right now are zetsu's clones, Naruto can solve it. But he must understand also, that he can't be unaware of the danger of his situation. That's why i think that both Raikage and Naruto are a couple of stubborn fools.

[Midnight Commander]

Originally Posted by Fran~

@Hunter: Kishi shows Naruto as fast as the fastest ninja alive, Madara tried to touch Minato, he couldn't make it. If you give Naruto the intel about how Madara fights, you are way more clever than just yelling some orders.

It is conceivable that Naruto can be put in an unmovable state, if only for a moment, which is all it would take(just an arbitrary example). Or Madara can blitz and concentrate his entire force on capturing the last two jins, since death in his army is meaningless, and they're what the war is about anyway. Either way, the main point is, from an in-story perspective, it doesn't necessarily seem worth it to place them on the field. I think some of you should remember that Raikage(and several others) don't know what Naruto fully is capable of either.

Madara can't beat Naruto, he is plot protected.

...Which is an out-of-story perspective.

[Fran~]

So what's in-story and out-of-story?

Because every assumption of Madara's plan can be out-of-story too.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Fran~

@Hunter: Kishi shows Naruto as fast as the fastest ninja alive, Madara tried to touch Minato, he couldn't make it. If you give Naruto the intel about how Madara fights, you are way more clever than just yelling some orders.

1/Naruto can match A's speed with his lightning shroud in its initial stage, the Raikage has shown he can still increase his speed considerably like when he dodged Sasuke's Amaterasu.
2/Madara managed to touch Minato just fine until Yondaime outsmarted him with Hiraishin.
3/They have nearly no intel whatsoever on Madara, particulary with his newfound power.
4/This has nothing to do with what I'm talking about anyway

Madara can't beat Naruto, he is plot protected.

Thanks, that's my point exactly.

[Fran~]

That's my point too... i was speaking about Naruto's speed, because this speed contest with Raikage tells you that Naruto perhaps isn't the fastest, but he is indeed fast. Which is the basis for dodge amaterasu and a lot of attacks (Susanoo's arrow perhaps). Kishi is making Naruto skilled enough to fight everybody, not at the same time though .

That's why i came with the idea that Naruto is plot-protected.

[Kallen4life]

Madara tried to touch Minato, he couldn't make it

that was because of Thunder God 2.0 .. Madara had almost sucked in Minato (he needs physical touch), but Minato teleported to his flying kunai with an instant rasengan - that was too fast for Madara .. Madara cannot move nearly as fast as Rai, Naruto or Minato, but he can react with his phasing and forced teleport just fine to any of their speeds except Thunder God

Naruto does not have Thunder God, which, I think, is quite an oversight on his part .. that thing is hugely broken if you can use it properly

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

I will now embarrass myself by quoting Mr. Spock from Star Trek. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

But i hope you realize that the story was about humans who think that for the need of one many should risk their life. While this is not "logical", it is very important in many stories. Humans are not just logical beings, when we examine their actions it can be said that the root cause of their actions are always emotions, their dreams/visions. Many humans do not weight 1 human life against many, for them 1 life is as important as thousands of lives. While this may seem stupid on the surface, it is quite logical, this has been discussed many times in different places/times/books/movies.

Just look at this war: the reason of this war is the emotional response of the ninjas, they value their freedom more than what Madara offers. But if they think 100% logically they could have accepted the offer. When humans have to make such important decisions they often can't analyze the situation logically, one reason for this is that they simply do not have enough information to make a good decision, and the other reason are their emotions. Naruto has faith in himself, the power of faith can be much stronger than the power of logic, because in messy situations like this logic can fall apart, see how Shikaku is so nervous that he is trying to calm down, but if his logical thinking fails he is beaten.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

that was because of Thunder God 2.0 .. Madara had almost sucked in Minato (he needs physical touch), but Minato teleported to his flying kunai with an instant rasengan - that was too fast for Madara .. Madara cannot move nearly as fast as Rai, Naruto or Minato, but he can react with his phasing and forced teleport just fine to any of their speeds except Thunder God

Naruto does not have Thunder God, which, I think, is quite an oversight on his part .. that thing is hugely broken if you can use it properly

Granted, he doesn't have it, but Naruto is a natural trickster.
He doesn't plan anything, he improvises, that's Naruto best skill. Every fight is based in his unpredictable moves, since his fight against Neji until now. Remember how he defeated the last Pain?.

Everybody underestimate Naruto.

[AuroraFlash]

I guess Raikage is a relic that the new generation has to get rid of. He's even willing to kill his comrades… or rather rivals? Well, I think Naruto is both a comrade and a rival. Raikage just became leader of the whole ninja world and yet he knows Naruto could take it all away from him.

Originally Posted by Fran~

Granted, he doesn't have it, but Naruto is a natural trickster.
He doesn't plan anything, he improvises, that's Naruto best skill. Every fight is based in his unpredictable moves, since his fight against Neji until now. Remember how he defeated the last Pain?.

Everybody underestimate Naruto.

You're right about that. Besides, was it the Kage Bunshin seal he was performing before Bee stepped in? Tell me it was not the KB seal…
I'd really like to see Naruto learn his father's jutsu. It would only be fair because he could actually make good use of it and it's his father's jutsu, some kind of family treasure.

[DeDe]

Originally Posted by Fran~

Granted, he doesn't have it, but Naruto is a natural trickster.
He doesn't plan anything, he improvises, that's Naruto best skill. Every fight is based in his unpredictable moves, since his fight against Neji until now. Remember how he defeated the last Pain?

But let's look at that entire Pain fight. Naruto received information from the Konoha ninja who fought Pain and relayed that info through Katsuyu. He wasn't fighting blind and had valuable info on how each body worked. So Naruto was able to plan. And even with that, he still lost to Pain and was saved by the Hinata/Kyuubi/Minato sideshow.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Naruto has faith in himself, the power of faith can be much stronger than the power of logic, because in messy situations like this logic can fall apart, see how Shikaku is so nervous that he is trying to calm down, but if his logical thinking fails he is beaten.

I don't think Shikaku's logic was falling apart. Ao and Inoicihi were panicking and he calmed himself down so he could think logically. Seems pretty smart to me. We have to see what he came up with.

Funny thing is that Shikaku uses both faith and logic. He showed faith in Naruto when he let him go talk with Nagato. Logically, that was the wrong move, but he believed in what Shikamaru said about Naruto. He had faith.

Faith can only take you so far. You need both in your reasoning. That's the sign of a true genius. That's why the Nara aren't Vulcans like Spock. They also show faith. See Shikamaru with Choji, Ino, and Naruto.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by DeDe

But let's look at that entire Pain fight. Naruto received information from the Konoha ninja who fought Pain and relayed that info through Katsuyu. He wasn't fighting blind and had valuable info on how each body worked. So Naruto was able to plan. And even with that, he still lost to Pain and was saved by the Hinata/Kyuubi/Minato sideshow.

And that's the way they should go now.... Konoha put all the intel in Katsuyu and she gave it to Naruto. Now, Shikaku knows the situation, what's the big deal with that?. Better they fight together with him and win or loss together than a phyrric victory.

BTW, i believe that logic or faith are meaningless if you don't have will of fight... and nobody beats Naruto in that. Battles are won in the battlefield, not in the mind of leaders or generals...