[Manga] Naruto Chapter 541 Discussion

[Sugetsu]

I think the lesson that Kishi is trying to transmit to his audience is spiritual in nature.

We human beings are dominated by fear and almost all of the choices we make in life are guided by it. This is why we place our faith in external deities but never in ourselves. Faith of the self is achieved when we are no longer prisoners of fear; and it is only through internal faith that we can bring meaningful change to our own lives.


In layman terms, Naruto has faith in himself, and it is now more than ever that a person with his character needed in order to change the ninja world forever. Hiding from the enemy will change nothing. Life is about taking risks and it is now or never for the ninja world to change course.

[lucasd]

Originally Posted by Hunter

-No he can't, he couldn't find them as long as they were sealed inside the Bijuu room and only got a hold of their location after they left.

But he also was not searching, I see no problem for him to teleport to HQ get the person that know and "interrogate" them (pain was also hidden).
He just knew naruto would get out by himself so he waited.

But afterwards the break the alliance plan should be modified on the fly to get the weapons to the battlefield, because sending substantial power force to stop them is only going to make the capture easier. Of course I would also send kages to escort them but to battlefield.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Huh? Why would anyone accept to give Madara what he needs to enslave humanity to his whim?

They didn't even know what Madara's jutsu exactly is. But what he said about it made it look good: eternal peace and such stuff. It sounded like some utopia society. Like some kind of Matrix, since it's a genjutsu, where people live in peace and happyness. Even if it is not reality, but for someone who never knew anything else it does not matter. For example take Cypher, the one who wanted a rich and happy life instead of constant fighting with enemy and shit life inside metal containers. For him that was the logical decision. Now here we see the ninja army is being killed by Madara's powers, so if they were asked if they wanted to live in a dream world instead of dying what would they answer if they were just thinking logically (self preservation being the basis of their logic)?

Of course here i'm assuming that self preservation is the base of an average person's logic. But they can have a different logic, if the starting point of their logic is freedom then the logical thing is to fight this war. But we can also see something much more selfish as their logic's starting point: they are ninja who only know how to fight, in a world of peace they would be unemployed trash
Speaking of which, i remember the begining of the manga with the story of Haku, people hated ninjas so much that even a sign of Haku's water bloodline could make his father kill his own family. So if a ninja is not selfish but wants good for the world maybe he would say that the logical thinking is to make a world without ninjas and their wars, a world like the one Madara offers. Because the current world sure doesn't sound to be ideal, we have "feudal lords" that seem to be completely incompetent, and we have agressive ninjas like the raikage and danzo, S-class criminal ninjas like Orochimaru and Kabuto who are using masses of people for experimentation, etc. Someone could even say that Kishimoto's ninja world is some kind of hell on earth

What i wanted to point out is that this decision to fight against Madara looked partly like being selfish and based on emotions, just like Naruto's current wish to enter the battlefield. Of course it was not the same, since the alliance's decision has more logical points for it than Naruto's, but there is a similarity between the two.

Originally Posted by Fran~

It's like if you are going to play against the strongest team in the universe and you don't do it because you will lose.

Until now it wasn't so one sided, the alliance knows that most of the S-class criminals in akatsuki are dead or defeated. From Sasori to Pain/Nagato all have beeen defeated. So why would the alliance give up if the evil guys are down to 4, and they see that Madara even tried to negotiate before starting the war. For the alliance the logical decision to go "all in" (that is to deploy Bee and Naruto) will be when they have no other option. I mean this is more like a game of poker than a game of chess, because in chess you know all pieces but here Madara and Kabuto have some unknown/secret cards.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

I think it's best to remember that we all understand Naruto's POV and of course we know he will come out ahead, but from Raikage's point of view, this is some child he doesn't know, a mere Genin who refuses to obey the orders of the Hokage and the Raikage.

The Raikage sees Naruto as a "mere" genin? He knows plenty more than that. He knows:

-That Naruto saved his entire village by defeating one of the most powerful shinobi ever known

-He has the most powerful bijuu sealed inside himself and has mastered it to an extent only a handful of have ever done.

-Naruto's been casually matching his own speed before his very eyes. Which means he's basically tied with the fastest shinobi in the entire world.

- His own brother is vouching for Naruto to the point that he's willing to exchange his life for Naruto's. This is also someone who can instantly judge character with a fist bump.

Raikage has absolutely no reason to believe Naruto is incapable other than the fact he's 'chaotic'. And maybe to some extent, that Yondaime's death makes Raikage reluctant to put faith in his son.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

They didn't even know what Madara's jutsu exactly is. But what he said about it made it look good: eternal peace and such stuff. It sounded like some utopia society. Like some kind of Matrix, since it's a genjutsu, where people live in peace and happyness.

They know. He told them about Mugen Tsukyuomi and how it works. He just didn't exactly describe what being under the genjutsu would be like. He said there would be no war, but he didn't say anything about experiencing happiness or even that they'd be blissfully unaware of being under a genjutsu. The only thing he said is that everyone's will would be bent to his own, so no one would be capable of starting war.

But we can also see something much more selfish as their logic's starting point: they are ninja who only know how to fight, in a world of peace they would be unemployed trash

That's not totally true. Most of the villages have been actually trying to move towards peace since the beginning of the story. Shinobi don't exist to simply fight wars (although that's easily the coolest thing about them). Ironically, ninjutsu wasn't even created for fighting. The Rikudou sage was a pacifist who intended his art to benefit the world.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

They know. He told them about Mugen Tsukyuomi and how it works. He just didn't exactly describe what being under the genjutsu would be like.

So you say they know and then you say they don't know
Who cares how it works, you care about what's it exact effect on you.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

He said there would be no war, but he didn't say anything about experiencing happiness or even that they'd be blissfully unaware of being under a genjutsu. The only thing he said is that everyone's will would be bent to his own, so no one would be capable of starting war.

We don't know the effects because they didn't even ask him what it would be. And we can assume that the genjutsu would not simply be him forcing his will on others, since that is not peace, it's a sort of war, a psichological war, because if they were forced to do things they would resist and rebel. So we can assume that they would not know what is happening, that is the easiest way of controlling people, just look at our western consumer society that is called democracy, people are giving up part of their freedom in exchange for a good living and peace. This is some basic contradiction between freedom and peace, the more freedom you give to people the more conflicts may begin between them. It's because of human nature.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

That's not totally true. Most of the villages have been actually trying to move towards peace since the beginning of the story. Shinobi don't exist to simply fight wars (although that's easily the coolest thing about them). Ironically, ninjutsu wasn't even created for fighting. The Rikudou sage was a pacifist who intended his art to benefit the world.

Whatever they say it sure looks like a lie when we look at all the things that happened until now and even now. The cloud village kidnapped Naruto's mother, the raikage did fight his father, they kidnapped Hinata, it seems they killed the 2nd hokage. And that's only the cloud village, we could continue this list with the other villages if we had more information on them.
Even now the rakiage is acting selfishly, he would kill Naruto instead of Bee. He tells that it is logical, but when we look at the facts it seems to be quite a big lie because he is selfish and doesn't even think about causing a future war between cloud and konoha because of killing Naruto.
Madara is laughing at them because he knows exactly what are they doing, because they used Madara's organization for their own good without knowing that they helped Madara with that. Madara knows that most of the akatsuki members became criminals because of the villages fucking up their life.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

We don't know the effects because they didn't even ask him what it would be. And we can assume that the genjutsu would not simply be him forcing his will on others, since that is not peace, it's a sort of war, a psichological war, because if they were forced to do things they would resist and rebel.

How would they rebel? There's no way to even begin resisting normal Tsukuyomi without Sharingan. Only 3 people besides Madara have that and that's probably not enough to work against the powered version Madara plans to cast.

Tsukuyomi makes victims completely helpless once they're under the genjutsu whether they realize it or not. Madara could create the illusion of a blissful utopia, or could place everyone on a crucifix and make them think he was stabbing them with katanas. Either way, they wouldn't be able to do anything about it. While I don't think Madara plans on doing anything that insane, I doubt he plans to turn the world into a giant Six Flags either. His definition of "peace" is simply the absence of war, not happiness of the individual

Anyways back to Raikage and Naruto. I don't really see either one as right or wrong. They're both completely inflexible and rigid. But the extremes the Raikage's willing to go through seem to border on the fanatical.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

How would they rebel? There's no way to even begin resisting normal Tsukuyomi without Sharingan. Only 3 people besides Madara have that and that's probably not enough to work against the powered version Madara plans to cast.

Tsukuyomi makes victims completely helpless once they're under the genjutsu whether they realize it or not. Madara could create the illusion of a blissful utopia, or could place everyone on a crucifix and make them think he was stabbing them with katanas. Either way, they wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

You can't enslave someone's mind, everybody has his dreams, wish, will, whatever you call it. You can of course enslave people's body with superior power, but that will not stop them from trying to get free. True control is achieved when they think they have free will, but in reality they do what you want. Then they are at peace, they don't think of revolting, i think it's obvious that Madara meant this.

BTW if you just cast a genjutsu on people and don't let them out of there then their real body will die. A better option is to do what Danzou did to Mifune, we don't know where is Shisui's other eye, it may be in Madara's hands.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

You can't enslave someone's mind, everybody has his dreams, wish, will, whatever you call it. You can of course enslave people's body with superior power, but that will not stop them from trying to get free.

I don't really see how you came up with that considering it's already happened. Madara completely bent Yagura to his will and ruled the Mist through him for years. We saw this through the flashback. When Madara wasn't actively controlling his actions, Yagura was like a lobotomy patient--docile, with no will of his own. Now imagine every single person in the world like that.

BTW if you just cast a genjutsu on people and don't let them out of there then their real body will die.

Again, see the example with Yagura. Genjutsu only has that effect if the victim is put in an illusion that is extremely traumatic like Kakashi was.

[AnbuItachi]

people dont need dreams. they are called dreams b/c they are dreams and not meant to be realized

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I don't really see how you came up with that considering it's already happened. Madara completely bent Yagura to his will and ruled the Mist through him for years. We saw this through the flashback. When Madara wasn't actively controlling his actions, Yagura was like a lobotomy patient--docile, with no will of his own. Now imagine every single person in the world like that.

So what? It does not mean that Yagura didn't try to resist this control, it just means he failed. Of course i'm not saying that Madara won't do this lobotomy to the whole world, i say that when he went to the kage summit he offered something else. Just imagine, why would he offer the eternal suffering of the whole world? Who the hell would accept that? Even death is better than that. He had to offer something where there is a chance the kages accept his offer. Or you say that Madara went to the summit expecting that he will be rejected, he went there just to play the big boss for his own amusement?

You need the peace of the mind to achieve true peace, if there are people who hate you then it doesn't work. Sure you can restrict their actions, but they'll still hate you, that is not peace.

Imagine some sort of ultimate utopia peace, how can it be achieved? I remember the ending of Neon Genesis Evangelion, there everybody's soul was united into one. And here Madara says he will become one with everyone, it sure sounds like he wants to do something like what happened at the end of NGE. And if i assume that then the ending of Naruto manga may be possibly truly epic instead of just a simple "happy end". Maybe the 10 tails was not a random natural disaster, maybe it was created by the sage of 6 paths, it turned out to be an uncontrollable monster, but maybe the purpose of it's creation was to achieve true peace by uniting all the people in the world. And that means the sage of the 6 paths failed, but Madara wants to succeed in that, however in his version the united world is controlled by his own mind. And why do the dead demons return to this world? Maybe because the 10 tails was also a portal to the world of the dead, the "pure world", maybe the 10 tails was a huge amount of dead souls mixed together, but since the dead souls experienced so much hate in their life the 10 tails became a hate machine instead of what the sage of 6 paths hoped it would be. And for a happy ending it could be that instead of Madara it will be Naruto who gains the control over the united world, as the individual souls and bodies disappear it would be Naruto who use this united power of all humans and recreate a better version of the world. That jutsu would be something like an ultimate izanagi, that creates the whole world.

[HasuMasu]

You need the peace of the mind to achieve true peace, if there are people who hate you then it doesn't work. Sure you can restrict their actions, but they'll still hate you, that is not peace.

well, you and madara don't need to agree on what peace is

[james0246]

Wild speculation of the day: Kirabi will be captured sooner rather than later, and Naruto will be captured later (not until Naruto defeats Sasuke). The Jyuubi will be completed, but only using Sasuke as the base (who after being defeated by Naruto becomes his old annoying self once again). Consequently, when Naruto goes to fight Madara, Naruto will be forced to seal the Jyuubi-Sasuke into himself...

That's all for wild speculation theory today...

[Fran~]

I believe that Naruto will end sealing every tailed beast, don't know why, but that way he will free any host of his/her burden. That way the world would achieve some balance or at least, tailed beasts wouldn't be a factor.

The prophecy will be fulfilled.

[Im_A_MoP]

I'm dissapointed that naruto didn't effortlessly wipe the floor with A. lol unrelated speculation: naruto seals jyuubi in himself after evry1 dies and thn does a mass ressurection with his newly gained rinnegan :I thn dies

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by james0246

Wild speculation of the day: Kirabi will be captured sooner rather than later, and Naruto will be captured later (not until Naruto defeats Sasuke). The Jyuubi will be completed, but only using Sasuke as the base (who after being defeated by Naruto becomes his old annoying self once again). Consequently, when Naruto goes to fight Madara, Naruto will be forced to seal the Jyuubi-Sasuke into himself...

That's all for wild speculation theory today...

Oh damn, I know Naruto wants to take Sasuke back no matter what but that's going a little too far

8-tails extraction seems inevitable now that Bee's trained Naruto on bijuu techniques. I think Naruto will eventually lose the 9-tails too; as much as I'd loathe to see another jinchuuriki surviving bijuu extraction, it'll be a let-down if we don't get to see the juubi by the end of the series.

Personally I'm hoping for a happy ending with Naruto as hokage. For Sasuke, I'd like to see him end up kinda like Shinomori Aoshi from Kenshin; maybe loose both eyes completely as well, but ultimately redeemed... and not inside Naruto's belly.

[Fran~]

Shinomori's end (after Shishio's arc) would fit perfectly.

Kishi is capable to save Naruto (Luke) thanks to Sasuke (Vader)... in a very Star Wars way.

[Poetic Justice]

Bee looks like a midget in the flashback rather than a kid.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by lucasd

But he also was not searching, I see no problem for him to teleport to HQ get the person that know and "interrogate" them (pain was also hidden).
He just knew naruto would get out by himself so he waited.

No he didn't, most of what Madara has been doing lately is trying to locate the Jinchuuriki.
Finding them both was the reason he made his declaration of war in the first place, why he had Kisame fake his death and hide with Bee, why he sent Kabuto after them and why he sent Zetsu capture the Daimyo.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

They didn't even know what Madara's jutsu exactly is. But what he said about it made it look good: eternal peace and such stuff. It sounded like some utopia society.
|...]

Madara -you know the guy who's not exactly mother Theresa- told them he would bring back the most dangerous being that ever existed, fusion with it and then mind control everybody on the planet.
Frankly I don't know where to start if you think it sounds good, at this point I think you're not quite sane.
Living under his rule in the Bloody Mist was already hellish, so yeah let's surrender humanity to his will, it's logical and stuff.

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't trying to intergrate himself into the fray a plan in itself? Granted, Naruto is being stupid about but its not like any of his plans were ever pre-meditated and thought through. He thinks of solutions as he goes and for this sort of thing, planning before-hand ain't gonna help him much. He may not have the solutions to world peace right now, but he certainly cannot make any with Madara breathing down everyone's necks.

A plan implies a method,it implies to think of doing something beforehand. What you're saying is that Naruto has faith (he has faith on the fact people had faith in him, you can't go more circular than that). To have faith is not a plan, it's what I described : making things up as he go along before Fate bail him out and everything work out in the end.

-Fair enough Hunter, I'll accept your stance on this. Though, now it just struk me that since Naruto isn't technically part of the Alliance (he was not included in their roster and part of their troops), Raikage's orders are invalid and he has no authority over Naruto's actions. B is another story, due to relation, but Naruto? If Naruto was smart he'd throw this reasoning instead but whatever.

He is a Konoha ninja, Konoha is part of the Alliance, he is part of the Alliance.
Raikage is Naruto's commander, even if you could make the argument that Naruto doesn't know that, Tsunade just ordered him to stand down and he refused, unless you think he also doesn't know who Tsunade is?
Naruto knows perfectly well he is going against the will of his village since he forced his way through the island by force. He just doesn't care.

-Seems to me then that reagrdless of what A decides, their future is screwed. Madara gets the Jins? He wins. Madara wipes the floor with the Alliance? He wins. A kills Naruto and B? 10 years (of likely civil wars) pass and Madara wins.

Or the Alliance wipe off the Zetsu, take care off Kabuto, thwart Madara and kill him. Again, you let the fact that you know -as a reader- it cannot happen interfere with seeing the Kages's point of view.

[Shining Celebi]

Exactly, I'm kind of baffled why everyone thinks a ten year delay would be useless...of course the Alliance might still lose, but they have ten years to fight Madara without worrying that they will wake up in his dreamworld. It's a much riskier gambit for Madara if he has to wait ten years. As far as we can tell he never planned on fighting the war against the Alliance to the finish anyway, he just wanted the jinchuuriki. We also saw that Madara seems unsure about his chances in the war proper and seems to be accelerating his plans.

[AuroraFlash]

First of all, Naruto and Kirabi must defeat or persuade A.
Maybe Naruto must be declared the new leader of the Joint Shinobi Forces as Tsunade grants him the title of Hokage… that's just in order to allow the rest to happen because Naruto must be Hokage at some point of the story…
I believe that Madara will seal the kind of fake Jyuubi inside himself.
Sasuke will lose to Naruto and thus be killed by Madara due to failing.
Naruto will get Sasuke's eyes and they'll become the Rin'negan.
Naruto will win against Madara and revive all the other victims.
They'll carve Naruto's face into Konoha's mountain and write down his name in the stone.

Dunno about Sasuke…
He could either be revived and stay hidden or Naruto could as a last wish restore his reputation (which might not work) or there will be two giant statues like Naruto's and Sasuke's because Sasuke decided to fight Madara at some point before he was killed by him…
and it's also possible that this action of fighting Madara restores his reputation and he can return to Konoha and become Hokage before Konohamaru - the first Uchiha on Konoha's throne…