[Manga] Chapter 364 Discussion

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Siege

I believe he's saying he has the same power as madara but he's not confessing his idenity please note that the way Madara is said he's trying to say he has madara's power in so much the same far developed abilities but that he is not madara it's merely a comparison

Yes, I support this view.

I believe that Tobi is Obito and that he is trying to unlock an Uchiha ability, which was possessed by Uchiha Madara that can only be accessed through some sort of ritual that requires the Bijuu to perform.

From Sasuke's flashbacks we see that there was always something mysterious about the behavior of the Uchiha clan. Itachi's father was obsessed with seeing him progress as a ninja to gain influence on the higher ups in the village.

It was of great importance that he attend the secret meetings. His father became enraged when he didn't. Itachi told Sasuke that a secret to the "True Purpose" of
Sharingan lied within the Nakano Shrine, in the secret meeting place.

Sasuke was readily aware that Kyuubi has some sort of history with the Uchiha. Kyuubi described his chakra as sinister like Uchiha Madara's. That would incidicate that Kyuubi knew Madara prior to his attack on Konoha (which could still possibly be Obito since he has been outside the village since before Yondaime became Hokage).

Considering the Uchiha have a storied history that would lead them to create secret meeting places inside of shrines and the Kyuubi is a demon, I think that Uchiha Madara references a distant Uchiha ancestor in their history that interacted with Kyuubi and the other Bijuu, not Tobi himself.

Itachi and Tobi have likely been well aware of the legends, having been introduced to them as Uchiha children at a certain age. Itachi's growth in power lead him to become arrogant and disgusted with the percieved incompetence of the clan, leading him to slaughter them and pursue the secret power they likely feared.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by Rahan

About the time-space ninjutsu which created quite a discussion.

chapter 92 page 13, Jiraiya : "Yeah ! you sign a contract in blood with various life forms and calls them forth with ninjutsu when needed. It's one type of space-time ninjutsu"

So the space-time ninjutsu Suigetsu was talking about was just good old Kuchiyose. There was nothing more to it.

It was also stated that Sasuke "entered" Manda which would suggest that he hid inside of his body ( ) by teleporting, then teleported himself into another realm.

I think this concept works similar to Jiraiya's Stone Frog summoning. He summoned Manda (having inherited Orochimaru's special sealing tatoo which can be seen on Chapter 363 page. 13), to form around him like a shield and hypnotized him with Sharingan so that he would stay in place, while he teleported himself into another dimension of Space-Time.

When Suigetsu summoned Sasuke back he could only see Manda, then Sasuke suddenly appeared with the classic poof of smoke (Chapter 363 page. 12).

[Rahan]

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

It was also stated that Sasuke "entered" Manda which would suggest that he hid inside of his body ( ) by teleporting, then teleported himself into another realm.

I think he used genjutsu to force Manda to open his mouth and let him enter his body. When hit by the explosion, Manda went back to his world and had to be recalled by Suigetsu. That's all. (and if Suigetsu wasn't around and able to call Manda, Sasuke would have the spent the rest of his life playing with snakes in another world)

I think this concept works similar to Jiraiya's Stone Frog summoning. He summoned Manda (having inherited Orochimaru's special sealing tatoo which can be seen on Chapter 363 page. 13), to form around him like a shield and hypnotized him with Sharingan so that he would stay in place, while he teleported himself into another dimension of Space-Time.

When Suigetsu first arrived at the blast site he could only see Manda, then Sasuke suddenly appeared with the classic poof of smoke (Chapter 363 page. 12).

The only smoke I can see on Sasuke's reappearance panel is quite far from him. I think it's a remnant of Manda's poof of smoke. Sasuke's simply walked out of Manda's mouth. (you can see Manda's "nose" (no idea how it's called for a snake in english), so Sasuke is coming from the mouth), so Sasuke is coming from the mouth)

[0TaKu0]

Originally Posted by Siege

Now I'm Usually Wrong but My English Degree won't allow me to walk away from this as alot of people seem to be gravitating to the fact that this is tobi's identity Confession,i don't belive this to be the case.

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

Yes, I support this view.

See here is where the problem lies, you mention your English Degree however that’s exactly the point. It is not about English, it is about Japanese being directly translated to English. Aside from the English language being very ambiguous by it self, it is the Japanese word placement which very different then that of the English language. Most Japanese when translated in to English, the words need to be re-arranged for it to seem like a complete / correct sentence. Also I noticed the line you posted from your NarutoBuzz Trans ->

Originally Posted by Siege

TOBI - the Sharingans true power, My Power,Uchiha Madara's Power!.

By looking at this line it is pretty obvious NarutoBuzz used HisshouBuraiKen's translation, because that was the one which caused the problem in the first place since he did not "mess" with the line, but left it as it should be directly translated to English (meaning he chose not to re-arrange the words after translation). Not to mention, Zabuza uses the word "Kono" to refer to him self in the past chapter just like Tobi did in 363 it adds an air of arrogance its very cliché as a villain to refer to them self as a 3rd person that way. I don’t care to explain this any father as I did once before, hence I shall direct you to this post which will explain everything in more detail, it also has a spoiler of HisshouBuraiKen's conversation with Njt explaining why he left the line alone.

I suggest you read the post I linked, and just because Tobi = Madara there is no need to give up on Madobi = Obito, he might be Madara but the body could just as well belong to Obito.

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

It was also stated that Sasuke "entered" Manda which would suggest that he hid inside of his body ( ) by teleporting, then teleported himself into another realm.

While Rahan already explained this very well, it is just as simple as getting Manda to open his mouth after genjutsu, then entering it and un-summoning Manda. A summoning jutsu IS a space-time jutsu. The explosion went off just before the un-summoning of Manda hence he received just enough damage to cause his death.

__________________

New Manga cover.

Spoiler for New Manga Cover:

Le sweet~

[Sasuke_Bateman]

Originally Posted by 0TaKu0

New Manga cover.

Spoiler for New Manga Cover:

Le sweet~

That cover looks amazing those snakes looks kinda different though. I hope it doesn't mean anything.

[Siege]

What a fantastic looking cover, since the covers are being done in colour now can we expect some sort of excitment

Originally Posted by Siege

Now I'm Usually Wrong

I just wanted to point out the transulation is different from manga to manga.

and that i'd really like to destroy the notion that tobi isn't Madara because many seem to hold the belief that he is when i checked the transulation although they differ in wording the basic essence of the original wording is still there he's definitly Describing the sharingan ability and true power, Definitly not his identity

[othafa]

Right, but what Taku is saying is that this is only because you're reading it in English. You have an English degree, so you should know that the language is ambiguous by nature when compared to many others. What Taku is pointing out is that in the original Japanese, the kanji for that sentence indicates that Madara is referring to himself in the third person. Most translators from many other sources agree with this assessment. The literal translation comes out the way you said it, but that doesn't change its original meaning.

[mahbod]

omg why doesnt some 1 just email kishis staff and get them to clarify omg! lol orjustbe patient and find out or wait for the dub which is professional trainlated i assume

here is an apparant few spoilers i got from some were.... if some 1 cares to translate

Spoiler for chapter 365:

Number 1.
バレ

ＮＯ３６５「イタチを追え」！！

場面木の葉一同
キバ「サスケはここから東南の方向に２５キロ程の所にいる」
ナルト「急いで行くってばよ」
ヤマト「！！」　
　　　「お前は!」
木の葉一同「暁！」
ペインがカカシの後ろに立っている。
ペイン「…」
ヤマト「あいつが相手となるとまずすぎる」
カカシ「ヤマト,あいつを知っているのか」　
ヤマト「ロナ・ペイン,雨隠れの抜け忍で,特殊な瞳術の血継限界を使うロナ一族の天才と呼ばれ た奴です」
ペインが消える
ヤマト「！」
　　　「木遁　縛御龍虞」
デッカイ木の牢が出現する。
カカシとヤマト以外の５人が牢の中にいる
ヤマト「ナルト君達はそこにいるんだ,その牢には結界が張ってある」
　　　「あいつの瞳術にはまだ君達では無理だ」
ヤマトがクナイを持ってかまえる,カカシが写輪眼を出す。　
場面変わってサスケが寝てる
水月「えらく疲れてるようだな」
カリン「サスケが重傷だから良くなるまでここで休もう」
重吾「しばらく俺が見張りをしよう」
場面変わってイタチ
キサメ「弟さんが生きていると？」
イタチ「いやそうではない…」
キサメ「まだ他にもうちは一族がいるんですか？」　
イタチ「…」
場面変わって木の葉一同
ペインがヤマトの胸をチャクラの剣で突き刺している。ヤマトの目が逝っちゃってる。
牢が無くなってナルト達が自由になる。
カカシ「こいつはやばすぎる,お前達は急いで退け」
ナルト以外が退こうとするが
ナルト「影分身の術」
キバ「よせナルト」
カカシがナルトの首を叩いて気絶させる
キバがナルトを担いで消える
カカシ「万華鏡写輪眼」
ペイン「…」
ペインがゆがんで終わり

次号「カカシＶＳペイン決着」！！

Number 2.

バレ

ナルト達にサイ合流
ﾅﾙﾄ｢どこ行ってたんだってばよ！！｣
ｻｲ｢ちょっと気になるものを見つけてね…｣
ポーチから割れたトビのお面と暁の服の切れ端を取り出す
ﾔﾏﾄ｢これは…｣
ｷﾊﾞ｢少しだがサスケの臭いがするぜ｣
ｶｶｼ｢おそらく暁のデイダラの相方の物だろう｣
｢奴らは常に２人で行動しているらしいからな｣
ｻｸﾗ｢仲間を巻き添えにしたのかしら…｣
ｷﾊﾞ｢……いや、こいつも生きてるぜ｣
｢サスケとは反対の方向から臭いがする…どうする？カカシ先生｣
ｶｶｼ｢よし…俺、ナルト、キバ、シノはサスケを、他はこれの持ち主の方を頼む｣
ｻｸﾗ｢はい！！｣
ﾋﾅﾀ｢分かりました｣
ﾔﾏﾄ｢…雲行きが怪しくなってきた｣
｢雨で臭いが消える前に行った方がよさそうだね｣
ｶｶｼ｢よし…くれぐれも無茶はしないように！…散！！｣
しかし誰も動かない
雨が降り始める
ﾅﾙﾄ｢なっ何だってばよ！｣
ｼﾉ｢……体が…動かない｣
雨が強くなる
雨の中にペインと暁女のシルエットが浮かぶ
ｷﾊﾞ｢チィ……タイミング悪すぎだぜ｣
ｶｶｼ(こいつはヤバいな………)
ﾅﾙﾄ｢誰だってばよ！！｣
ﾍﾟｲﾝ｢九尾の人柱力……大人しくついてくれば仲間の命だけは救ってやろう｣

煽り　雨の中最強の刺客が！！ナルト達の運命は！？
次回｢嵐の始まり！！｣だ！！

EDIT:
Here's a third.

３６５話｢衝突…！！｣

サスケの居る旅館
ｶﾘﾝ｢まったくだらしない…(無防備なサスケ…)｣
水月｢暇だな……早く起きないかなサスケ｣
ｶﾘﾝ｢そんなに暇ならもっとイタチの情報でも探してこい！！｣
水月｢そうだね…カリンの顔も見飽きたしね｣
ｶﾘﾝ｢ふんっ！重吾も行ってきたらどうだ！？｣
重吾｢…そうだな｣
水月と重吾が部屋を出ていく
ｶﾘﾝ｢(これでサスケと２人きり！！)｣
ｶﾘﾝ｢……！！このチャクラは……｣

場面変わりカカシ一行
サイが合流
なんか最初の集合場所に戻ってたらしくてナルトに空気読んで行動しろとか言われる
ｶｶｼ｢キバを先頭に一列縦隊でいく｣
ﾔﾏﾄ｢みんな自分の周りには十分気を配るんだよ｣
ﾅﾙﾄ｢押忍！！｣
キバが鼻クンクンさせる
ｷﾊﾞ｢なっ、後ろだ！！｣
みんな振り向く そこにはペインと暁女の姿が
ﾋﾅﾀ｢い、いつのまに！｣
ｼﾉ｢こいつら、まったく気配を感じられない…｣
ｶｶｼ｢暁の新手か…！｣
雲が出てきて雨が降り出す
ﾍﾟｲﾝ｢ツララ、九尾の人柱力以外は全員殺す…｣
ﾂﾗﾗ｢分かってるわ｣
ﾅﾙﾄ｢何ふざけた事言ってやがるっ！！｣
５人に影分身して走り出すナルト
ｻｸﾗ｢ナルト！！｣
ﾔﾏﾄ｢チィ……！！｣
ﾍﾟｲﾝ｢………｣
ナルトに雷が落ちる
ﾋﾅﾀ｢ナルト君！！｣
ﾔﾏﾄ｢ふぅ｣
オリジナルはヤマトの木で助かっている
ｶｶｼ｢雷遁か…！？｣
ﾍﾟｲﾝ｢……違うな俺は何もしていない｣
ｷﾊﾞ｢どういう事だ！？術じゃないって言うならいったい……｣
ﾂﾗﾗ｢ペインは自然に愛されている…自然はいつも彼の味方なのよ｣
ﾍﾟｲﾝ｢つまり、俺と戦うということは全ての自然を敵にまわすと言うことだ｣
ﾔﾏﾄ｢何てふざけた能力だ……｣
ｶｶｼ｢(あの女…どこかで……)｣
ﾍﾟｲﾝ｢少しおしゃべりが過ぎたな…｣
ﾂﾗﾗ｢もうやりましょうか｣
ﾅﾙﾄ｢くっ……｣

鬼鮫｢さっき何を言いかけたんです？｣
ｲﾀﾁ｢…お前ももうすぐ知る事になるだろう……｣
ｲﾀﾁ｢この組織が何のためにあるのかをな……｣
鬼鮫｢それはいったい…｣
ｲﾀﾁ｢時間も後少ない…行くぞ…｣
歩きだすイタチ

煽り 明かされるペインの能力！！そしてイタチの向かう先は！？
次回｢暁の秘密…！！｣だ！！

Spoiler 1

The Konoha party are trailing Sasuke when Pein appears behind Kakashi. (and mega LOL at Babelfish's "The pain stands in rear of [kakashi]")
Yamato knows Pein from reputation (he is the prodigy from a clan specialized in doujutsus in the Rain village)
The fight starts, babelfish didn't make sense here. I think Yamato uses a wood prison technique to protect the 6 kids while he and Kakashi takes on AL.

Sasuke is resting and is nursed by Karin

Kisame and Itachi are talking and I didn't make any sense of the BF translation

Pein pierces Yamato's chest, the prison disappears. Kakashi knocks out Naruto and tell Kiba to take him and run away with the others while he holds off AL

[Kage_Spyke]

if there is anything this chapter proves is that tobi is Obito Uchiha. if you guys dont get that by now you are seriously living in Denial

[That Other Ninja]

No kidding. All we keep hearing is "I think he means this" when what some of you THINK is irrelevant to dialog in a different language where the way something is said in a specific manner of organized characters is static.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Siege

TOBI - the Sharingans true power, My Power,Uchiha Madara's Power!.

Now I'm Usually Wrong but My English Degree won't allow me to walk away from this as alot of people seem to be gravitating to the fact that this is tobi's identity Confession,i don't belive this to be the case.

I believe he's saying he has the same power as madara but he's not confessing his idenity please note that the way Madara is said he's trying to say he has madara's power in so much the same far developed abilities but that he is not madara it's merely a comparison

Many say that in the japanese original he's clearly saying that he is Madara, in an arrogant way.

However i remember the case of Kakashi's sentence about Itachi becoming blind. Many said then that Kakashi was literally saying that Itachi is becoming blind, and there was no other possible meaning of that sentence. However after that we saw that Kakashi was meaning that Itachi didn't see the MS power in Kakashi's eye. Itachi was never becoming blind, he simply didn't see MS in Kakashi's eyes, but after Kakashi says that Itachi is shocked and says "you couln't have....", clearly the sentence would continue by "... developed MS?!".

So i would not bet on that Tobi says he is Madara. In the case Kishimoto plays with us, it would be best idea from him to make Tobi say such words, thise way our debates about Tobi possibly being Obito can be even more heated. My opinion is that Kishimoto is playing with this Obito idea (making one eye hole, etc...) the same way as he played with us making us think that Kabuto will betray Orochimaru and that Kabuto has some secret/plan. The interesting part is that in this play Kishimoto can decide both ways, he can decide to make an evil-Obito or for Tobi to be simply Madara. Or something even more interesting, based on Hunter's theory about Madara: Tobi is Obito posessed by Madara.

[Siege]

Originally Posted by othafa

Right, but what Taku is saying is that this is only because you're reading it in English. You have an English degree, so you should know that the language is ambiguous by nature when compared to many others. What Taku is pointing out is that in the original Japanese, the kanji for that sentence indicates that Madara is referring to himself in the third person. Most translators from many other sources agree with this assessment. The literal translation comes out the way you said it, but that doesn't change its original meaning.

I don't disagree with taku at all, i have never read nor tried to read a japanese version of anything i was merely pointing to the way it's read in english or the way it should be read i ment to offend no one.

I'm gonna take it like i read it the first time i don't believe that it's madara at all Tobi or the character we know as tobi to this point. may or may not have reveiled his identity i belive that will happen when faced with the shattering of Akatsuki that is if he is Madara if it turns out to in fact be Obito, Sas-God, Itachi and the rest will be incredibly shocked they'll all head back to konoho have some tea and dance around like merry little idiots and kakashi will finally reveal himself to be Yondaime

[shaselai]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Many say that in the japanese original he's clearly saying that he is Madara, in an arrogant way.

However i remember the case of Kakashi's sentence about Itachi becoming blind. Many said then that Kakashi was literally saying that Itachi is becoming blind, and there was no other possible meaning of that sentence. However after that we saw that Kakashi was meaning that Itachi didn't see the MS power in Kakashi's eye. Itachi was never becoming blind, he simply didn't see MS in Kakashi's eyes, but after Kakashi says that Itachi is shocked and says "you couln't have....", clearly the sentence would continue by "... developed MS?!".

By the way... how did Kakashi develop MS? His loved ones were all killed already... and is losing Sasuke what triggered it?

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Many say that in the japanese original he's clearly saying that he is Madara, in an arrogant way.

However i remember the case of Kakashi's sentence about Itachi becoming blind. Many said then that Kakashi was literally saying that Itachi is becoming blind, and there was no other possible meaning of that sentence. However after that we saw that Kakashi was meaning that Itachi didn't see the MS power in Kakashi's eye. Itachi was never becoming blind, he simply didn't see MS in Kakashi's eyes, but after Kakashi says that Itachi is shocked and says "you couln't have....", clearly the sentence would continue by "... developed MS?!".

That statement wasn't merely a metaphor for Itachi not being able to notice Kakashi's MS. Before he asks Itachi how far his eyesight has deteriotated, he points out how weary MS makes Itachi and how much chakra it uses. He notes that the technique is dangerous for Itachi's eyes (something Kisame also points out the first time Itachi uses it).He was obviously making a point that MS has long-term negative effects. We just haven't seen them affect Itachi yet. And that's most likely because Itachi always keeps his Sharingan active.

So i would not bet on that Tobi says he is Madara. In the case Kishimoto plays with us, it would be best idea from him to make Tobi say such words, thise way our debates about Tobi possibly being Obito can be even more heated. My opinion is that Kishimoto is playing with this Obito idea (making one eye hole, etc...) the same way as he played with us making us think that Kabuto will betray Orochimaru and that Kabuto has some secret/plan. The interesting part is that in this play Kishimoto can decide both ways, he can decide to make an evil-Obito or for Tobi to be simply Madara. Or something even more interesting, based on Hunter's theory about Madara: Tobi is Obito posessed by Madara.

It's pretty much clear that Tobi is referring to himself as Madara in that sentence. It's just talking in circles to discuss the literal meaning of the sentence anymore. If Pain or BH refer to him as Madara, this debate could be ended as soon as next chapter. Tobi's entire background will probably not be revealed for many chapters though, so that is more open to discussion.

[Siege]

Kakashi's method of attaining MS hasn't been touched upto by Kishi so far and i highly doubt that the loss off sasuke would trigger it and Gai is still alive and i think he attained it before asuma died so it's hard to know

[tramadrama]

Originally Posted by shaselai

By the way... how did Kakashi develop MS? His loved ones were all killed already... and is losing Sasuke what triggered it?

Tobi acquired it. It just activated because of Tobi's actions jk. It hasn't been mentioned.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by shaselai

By the way... how did Kakashi develop MS? His loved ones were all killed already... and is losing Sasuke what triggered it?

You don't have to believe the words of Itachi. It's only him who talks to his brother Sasuke about hatred, killing best friend and such stuff. He probably wants to drive Sasuke on the only way that he thinks may lead Sasuke to be stronger than him. However he is wrong, and Kakashi's MS has a good reason to exist (besides the fact that Kakashi is one of the most popular characters of the manga, so Kishimoto needed to upgrade him too after the timeskip), it will be probably important for Sasuke's growth. Sasuke will need to gain MS sooner or later because his real enemy is Tobi. I have a feeling that Itachi's life is nearing it's end, and his death will be very important for Sasuke returning to the good side.

[AlphaDragoon]

According to every translator of the manga...Tobi is Madara. As in, no room for discussion, it just is.

[sasuke2007]

Obitio/tobi could be madara uchihas son...so him saying he has the power of madara is kinda true...(if) being his son n all

[iBeast]

Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

According to every translator of the manga...Tobi is Madara. As in, no room for discussion, it just is.

I hope so, but really I just hope it doesn't turn out to be Obito, some silly character.