[Manga]Domestic Na Kanojo (Author of GE - Good Ending)

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Nah she said she got she deal with lot of taboos so she got lot of criticism. She then elaborated especialy strong reaction from oversea suprised her. Her words not mine.

No she didn't she specifically said she was being harassed by overseas readers, and then noted a bunch of it came from people who didn't even read it. She specifically said she was recieving an overflow of support from her normal readers.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

And I don't see where I were supposed did lie. Spamming social media with profanity isn't legit criticism. In matter of fact spamming anything is. This discussion would much easier if you didn't try putting words in my mouth every time. And whether I am making myself look bad is not up to you decide.

You literally just said that you considered those posts to be legit criticism of the author. You're contradicting your own contradictions at this point.

Also, funny how criticism isn't objective when applied to you, huh?

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Also just because you don't aknowledge something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Common knowledge means knowledge that majority of people knows. If you aren't one of them doesn't make it any less true. I just use google, ask your literature teacher if you are still in touch or really just ask people who read and they will give you very similiar answers. Try it, before accusing others. Standarts might differ based on culture, but they never differ radically. That's why we can appreciate such stories as Epos of Gilgamesh or Oddyssey. There is nothing temporary about that

I acknowledge that the opinion exists. I also acknowledge that it's the single most universally panned opinion in the entirety of the literature community.

You keep trying to deny this without actually saying anything substantial about it, you haven't addressed the points I brought up, you've admitted standards are temporary cultural constructs, and now you're trying to ignore all the above to pretend you still have a position to defend.

Also, since you decided to jump into the biggest trap in the entire fallacious argument of your own will? Gilgamesh and the Oddyessy are appreciated for their contributions to the development of Western literature. If they were written today not a single publisher would touch them. They're full of what people today consider flaws, and Gilgamesh in particular would be shredded as a main character.

And for that matter, that appreciation is unique to Western literature, as neither story is held in the same regard by Japanese or Chinese cultures, who both have their own stories that fill in those roles in entirely different ways.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

If you attack me for being "apologist" then you aren't any different with exception you are making excuse for author instead.

I've pointed out the bad behavior on the part of the readers, pointed out the lack of said behavior in the actual target audience, and then had to explain how culture works from the ground up.

You blamed the author for expressing surprise at a group outside her target audience throwing a tantrum, repeatedly contradicted yourself, and are actively trying to push an argument considered to be a joke by the community you are referencing.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

And yes in japan single mothers are often frowned upon. I concluded it's not all that relevant to discussion, so I deleted it. You want it here that much then sure I will say it there

Great, now explain how attacking Japanese culture contributes to your argument.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Anyway if we are to continue to this topic, better tone down personal attacks. Or just end this discussion altogether. I am fine with either.

I agree, you should absolutely drop the passive aggressive insults and blatantly unwarranted condescension.

[Tenzen12]

``Since the characters will step into various taboos in the work, there were critical opinions as well. I was surprised that there were a lot of reactions from overseas

Source: https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/55...892562a8890643

Anyway why don't you quote me where I said that spamming profanities is legit criticism then? If you insist I did say that you can do that much.

And I am not saying you are not right when you say It make me look bad, but it take more then just you do decide that. Standards aren't set by single person but by many. If you can prove other think same as you then be it. Unfortunately whether that makes me look bad or not isn't common knowledge that can be easily verified.

I admited different cultures have different standard. I also elaborated differences are minimal both across time and space. That's not contradiction. Also both Epos of Gilgames and Odyssei work very well as stories you don't get anything by bashing them. All they would need is modernised format and they would sell just fine.

Passive agressive is nothing comparing calling others "liar", "apologist" and apparently also defender of death threats. Anyway I might try tone it down from now but you would certainly need do your part as well.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Source: https://news.yahoo.co.jp/articles/55...892562a8890643

Bruh.

That's a quote from last year

And she was talking about people who dont like taboo content in general, not readers.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Anyway why don't you quote me where I said that spamming profanities is legit criticism then? If you insist I did say that you can do that much.

If you insist.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

"Harassment" is very quickly becomming buzzword used to refuse any and every criticism. And yeah even "lol this manga suxx" count as one.

Context for this is that I said most of the comments were "lol this manga suxx" except with more profanity. Cue you defending it as legit.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

And I condemned those that goes overborad. "f**k you" doesn't really go overboard, though I wouldn't go that far myself. And yes majority is legit criticism, even if ladded with fair share easily understandable bitterness caused by author terrible writing

Context for this is you trying to separate the ragers from the death threats....and then saying that the profanity is fine because the author deserves it.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

And I am not saying you are not right when you say It make me look bad, but it take more then just you do decide that. Standards aren't set by single person but by many. If you can prove other think same as you then be it. Unfortunately whether that makes me look bad or not isn't common knowledge that can be easily verified.

According to you standards are objective so it doesnt matter how many people are involved.

Sorry, but because I am laying claim to a nebulous standard that now applies objectively to everything, you look bad whether you think you do or not

Kind of a silly statement, no?

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I admited different cultures have different standard. I also elaborated differences are minimal both across time and space. That's not contradiction. Also both Epos of Gilgames and Odyssei work very well as stories you don't get anything by bashing them. All they would need is modernised format and they would sell just fine.

Yeah, too bad your elaboration is objectively wrong. There are massive differences between works back then and now, and the things considered good now would have been panned back then, and vice versa.

The fact that they have to be "modernized" proves my point. Also good luck getting a story where the main character spends his first arc literally raping all the brides in the city he holds absolute power over past a modern publisher. Today's standards don't hold to that.

Gilgamesh and Odyssey are held up as they are because of what they contributed to Western culture. They had a positive influence on the development of literature, but that doesnt mean that they are irrevocably "good" as stories in and of themselves.

You do realize both of these things are actually for sale, right? They've been in print for literally decades at this point and they mostly show up in school libraries.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Passive agressive is fine, at least it's better then being called "lier", "apologist" and defender of death threats. Anyway I might try tone it down from now but you would certainly need do your part as well.

"Liar" is because you literally said things that weren't true and could be proven as such by scrolling down the page. You went from "F**k you is okay" to "I never defended profanity" in literally one post, dude.

"Apologist" isn't even an actual insult, it's a statement of a thing you were doing.

The death threat thing...wasn't a thing? I pointed out that the rage you said was justified included death threats and then you started getting defensive.

[Tenzen12]

-ok point taken
- "lol this manga suxx" except with more profanity is not same as spamming profanities. "F**k you" also isn't that bad. Death threats or calling names would be bad but just voicing discontent is legit criticism. Spamming it in other hand serve nothing and is intentional harassment, which I condemned. So yes again I neve said "spamming profanities is ok". or it count as legit criticism. From beginning I am consistent about this.
-I am trying separate death threats AND harassment from ragers. And I do that because you are trying put them all into single bag.
- Yes it's indeed silly statement. In first place I never tried critcise other people based on my personal standards alone. Which is what you do here.

-I picked both works because they are aknowledged classics AND because they are good by modern standards. If they weren't there wouldn't any point choose them as examples. And whether Gilgamesh raped all brides in Uruks (did he? Can't remember that part, well whatever) doesn't really matter, he wasn't meant to be good man in first place and as far as writting goes giving him modern values would mean loosing cultural background of time period story take place in. By modernisation I certainly don't mean changing characters or events. Just using modern vocabuary, put there more flashy action and snappy dialogs to fit it modern taste

-Again I could call you liar too but again I will not. (being wrong and lying are two differnt things.), because I never said "I never defended profanities" I explicitly said I don't approve spamming profanities (which is harassment). Apologist might not be insult per se, but still personal attack in order dismiss ANY argument I make. That's only done in bad faith. Also of course I would get defensive after repeated attacks on my character.

So one last time, civil discussion or not?

Edit: Also as far as vulgarities/profanities goes, noone should call others by names

[XFire]

Spoiler for spoiler:

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

-ok point taken

Progress

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

- "lol this manga suxx" except with more profanity is not same as spamming profanities. "F**k you" also isn't that bad.

Yes it is. And yes it is. Going onto someones social media en masse and filling it with profanity, of which "F**k you" is considered part of that category, is "spamming"

What did you think "spamming" means? Like its only bad if they personally send more than one message?

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Death threats or calling names would be bad but just voicing discontent is legit criticism. Spamming it in other hand serve nothing and is intentional harassment, which I condemned.

Yeah, and ninety-nine percent of that Twitter feed fell into the "calling names" category.

Again, what are you using "spamming" as? Because you're saying that it isn't happening while describing posts that are that.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

So yes again I never said "spamming profanities is ok". or it count as legit criticism. From beginning I am consistent about this.

You literally just said you didn't consider a message consisting of nothing but profanity ("F**k you") to be legit.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

-I am trying separate death threats AND harassment from ragers. And I do that because you are trying put them all into single bag.

The ragers are harassment.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

- Yes it's indeed silly statement. In first place I never tried critcise other people based on my personal standards alone. Which is what you do here.

Remind me how many times you called the author "incompetent" because you don't like their writing?

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

-I picked both works because they are acknowledged classics AND because they are good by modern standards. If they weren't there wouldn't any point choose them as examples.

This is circular reasoning. They are good because you chose them, and you chose them because they are good.

Neither story would be considered good if written today. They are held up and remembered because they had a positive contribution to literature.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

And whether Gilgamesh raped all brides in Uruks (did he? Can't remember that part, well whatever) doesn't really matter, he wasn't meant to be good man in first place and as far as witting goes giving him modern values would mean loosing cultural background of time period story take place in.

Prima noctis. Its why Enkidu tried to kill him when they first met.

And you just admitted that standards change radically given time and location.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

By modernisation I certainly don't mean changing characters or events. Just using modern vocabuary, put there more flashy action and snappy dialogs to fit it modern taste

So change up the events, dialogue, and characterization.

You ever heard of the Ship of Thesus?

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

-Again I could call you liar too but again I will not. (being wrong and lying are two different things.), because I never said "I never defended profanities" I explicitly said I don't approve spamming profanities (which is harassment). Apologist might not be insult per se, but still personal attack in order dismiss ANY argument I make. That's only done in bad faith. Also of course I would get defensive after repeated attacks on my character.

No, you can't. And admitting that you could only do it in the context of deliberate misdirection does not help your case.

You said you don't approve spamming profanities in the same sentence that you said "F**k you" was legit criticism.

Apologist is a specific reference to a specific argument you are making in which you are stating a group of people engaging in behavior you admit is bad are without fault. You are now attempting to dismiss it as a fallacy because you can't actually respond to it.

"Repeated attacks on your character". You realize this was in reference to me pointing out the group you defended had people who were issuing death threats? It had nothing to do with you personally.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

So one last time, civil discussion or not?

That is entirely up to you.

And since this seems to be the current lynchpin of your stance, I'll address "spamming" again. You appear to now be trying to define it as something besides just sending a message with no purpose besides saying "F**k you", and I get the idea your going to try and present it as if its only harassment if a user personally sends more than one message.

"Spamming" was a word I introduced into the conversation in direct reference to the profanity laden messages that the ragers had filled her Twitter feed with. It was consistently used throughout the conversation within that context.

You don't get to redefine it now because you realized you crossed yourself.

[XFire]

Actually, forget it.

I'm pretty sure both of us have said we dont particularly care about the manga itself, and this has become an argument of semantics.

It's pretty clear neither of us will budge, so at this point I'm just going to call it.

I'll leave my post up and you can respond to it, and then we'll go our separate ways feeling vindicated. And everyone else in the thread will breathe a sigh of relief that the crazies are gone.

I'm off work now anyway, so I dont need a distraction anymore

[EroKing]

YouTube

https://youtu.be/V2AWjDjwM-w

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[WingedAccelerator]

Gigguk is a sore loser. If Rui would have won, there won't be any DomeKano saga with him. He always bets on the safe, obligatory main heroine or who feels that, but this shows he can't handle taking risks. Please, KanoKari writer, make Mizuhara lose by some miracle for him to bitch again!

[Kazu-kun]

The problem of DomeKano is not that Hina won. The problem is the way it happened was dog shit.

[WingedAccelerator]

Indeed, but Gigguk kept reading it when it already became a cesspit instead of saying that he has a certain level of standards. Just like how he memed everything to oblivion, he became a living meme that tries to convince people that it's okay to watch these dumpsterfires, yet takes them seriously for some reason. So the end result is entirely shipping war based bitching. He literally says in one of the KanoKari videos that Ruka is designated loser because of her blue hair and that's his entire argument why she can't be best girl. In DomeKano, majority bet on Rui as endgirl for good reason, but wise readers knew it's Sasuga Kei they are dealing with, and boom, Rui lost, Gigguk bitches in multiple videos.

[stray]

KanoKari is a weak substitute for DnK. Its like going from the good Huy Fong sriracha to the crappy Tabasco stuff that's about as spicy as ketchup.

[kampfer91]

TBH , both series are overhyped with lame development.....