(L) Dragon Ball Super

[Archon_Wing]

Well, apparently Goku's the antagonist this time.

Wanted him to lose this time,lol.

[n0m@n]

But the antagonist/villain shouldn't lose in the exhibition match or in a battle before the big match. Need ta save that in the main match for bigger satisfication lol.

[GDB]

But if Goku's the antagonist, that means he'll win. That's how Super works.

Beerus - Wins
Frieza - Wins (then Whis does time shenanigans and he loses, but he won first)
Hit - Wins (then feigns defeat for Monaka, but he won first)
Zamasu - Wins (then gets erased, but he won first)

So the only question is, will Goku get a flat win like Beerus, or an "and then" win like the other three?

[n0m@n]

Oh, the villain sure has been winning lol.
Perhaps that's why Goku is the villain now for this arc. Like you said he would win the tournament since he's the villain lol (which is good considering Goku hasn't won any major battle in Super yet I think). Goku may finally win a major battle in Super

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by GDB

But if Goku's the antagonist, that means he'll win. That's how Super works.

Beerus - Wins
Frieza - Wins (then Whis does time shenanigans and he loses, but he won first)
Hit - Wins (then feigns defeat for Monaka, but he won first)
Zamasu - Wins (then gets erased, but he won first)

So the only question is, will Goku get a flat win like Beerus, or an "and then" win like the other three?

Yeah, I was thinking about it the other day... like, the least likely thing I'd have imagined they would have gotten rid of in a new Dragonball was the "Goku always wins" rule. Now apparently Goku gets his ass kicked on a regular basis. Perhaps that's what's getting to him . He acts like it's all sports and fair play but secretly he's not that happy of losing THIS MUCH.

[justavisitor]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Yeah, I was thinking about it the other day... like, the least likely thing I'd have imagined they would have gotten rid of in a new Dragonball was the "Goku always wins" rule. Now apparently Goku gets his ass kicked on a regular basis. Perhaps that's what's getting to him . He acts like it's all sports and fair play but secretly he's not that happy of losing THIS MUCH.

I don't think Goku ever win clearly in a fight since the one vs frieza in dragonball z.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

I don't think Goku ever win clearly in a fight since the one vs frieza in dragonball z.

Well, with Boo he won, though he did get help for the Genkidama. But yeah, he's not been as successful as people seem to imagine him to be .

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by GDB

But if Goku's the antagonist, that means he'll win. That's how Super works.

Beerus - Wins
Frieza - Wins (then Whis does time shenanigans and he loses, but he won first)
Hit - Wins (then feigns defeat for Monaka, but he won first)
Zamasu - Wins (then gets erased, but he won first)

So the only question is, will Goku get a flat win like Beerus, or an "and then" win like the other three?

frieza - he wins after cheat cuz goku blue was easy overpowering him, then he used his fellow to "shot gokun" with a gun and this give him the wins but in "strengt wise" he was not on par with goku

hit - yeah he win but this also was due to goku decide to "give up" to see monaka fight and rest, before that they where pretty matched

zamasu - goku have many chances to beat zamasu but let him go all the times and zamasu only wins because his "immortality" otherwise he could have lost to vegetto.

Originally Posted by justavisitor

I don't think Goku ever win clearly in a fight since the one vs frieza in dragonball z.

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Well, with Boo he won, though he did get help for the Genkidama. But yeah, he's not been as successful as people seem to imagine him to be .

against "fat but goku ssj3 was being superior in the same way gotenks was superior to tall evil buu.

most of the goku defeats on super where more like "plot armor" for the villians cuz goku against most of then was showed being supperior the only one real enemy which goku really never had a chance to beat was beerus but all the others where more like "plot armor" than actually goku not really being able to beat then.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

frieza - he wins after cheat cuz goku blue was easy overpowering him, then he used his fellow to "shot gokun" with a gun and this give him the wins but in "strengt wise" he was not on par with goku

Irrelevant. It's a life and death battle, not a spar for bragging rights. There's no such thing as cheating. And strength doesn't matter if you lose. Also, Golden Frieza WAS stronger than Super Saiyan Blue before his stamina exhausted, further negating any strength argument.

hit - yeah he win but this also was due to goku decide to "give up" to see monaka fight and rest, before that they where pretty matched

Irrelevant.

zamasu - goku have many chances to beat zamasu but let him go all the times and zamasu only wins because his "immortality" otherwise he could have lost to vegetto.

Also irrelevant.

most of the goku defeats on super where more like "plot armor" for the villians cuz goku against most of then was showed being supperior the only one real enemy which goku really never had a chance to beat was beerus but all the others where more like "plot armor" than actually goku not really being able to beat then.

You could say the same about many of Goku's wins pre-Super being plot armor for the hero. So, again, irrelevant.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by GDB

Irrelevant. It's a life and death battle, not a spar for bragging rights. There's no such thing as cheating. And strength doesn't matter if you lose. Also, Golden Frieza WAS stronger than Super Saiyan Blue before his stamina exhausted, further negating any strength argument.

he not was strong than sayan blue goku again was going "easy on him" to see how strong frieza was as he aways does, instead of go full force goku most of the times goes "soft" to test enemy strengt, this is so true which when goden frieza exausthed his power goku was fine and could keep fighting fine he just lost for the gun.

he loose by being weak = / = than loosing by plot armor
another thing we are talking "about goku" the guy which do any crap to have the dream fight then don't exist the "irrelevant" toward him, he will do stupid things if needed to have what he want and he don't care about it.

Irrelevant.



Also irrelevant.



You could say the same about many of Goku's wins pre-Super being plot armor for the hero. So, again, irrelevant.

yeah he have some legit wins and some plot armors but this don't change the fact which most of the super battles goku loosing was due to not being "weak" than the enemie but he being "stupid" as aways the plot need to him to take the "wrong decision" for the sake of "battle" which aways was the biggest goku weakness.

[GDB]

Goku said that if Frieza had just taken the time to get used to the form and remove the stamina drain, he'd have won. That means that, prior to the stamina drain, Frieza was stronger.

[Sixth]

Future Trunks Time line is completely different then main Timeline.
Just because Current Zen-oh was planning something doesn't mean Future Zen-oh did the same thing

They are literally the same person. If present you are figured out something, do you think yourself in the future wont figured it too?

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Sixth

They are literally the same person. If present you are figured out something, do you think yourself in the future wont figured it too?

Given the likely life spans of these beings, it's not hard to imagine that Zeno may have taken thousands or millions of years to move on his "too many universes" comment. At a minimum, the fact that Trunks's timeline was still around means he was in no hurry to do anything. Doubt this fact will ever be brought up in the show, but it does kind of re-implicate Goku here.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well, apparently Goku's the antagonist this time.

Wanted him to lose this time,lol.

I dunno, maybe I'm weird, but Goku being portrayed as morally grey is making me root for him more than ever. I was pumped when he embraced Toppo calling him evil. It's all for the thrill of the fight for Goku.

[Robotech Master]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

he not was strong than sayan blue goku again was going "easy on him" to see how strong frieza was as he aways does

It is absolutely, 100% canon confirmed that Golden Freeza is stronger the Super Saiyan Blue. Both Goku and Vegeta firmly admitted to not being able to win if Freeza had mastered the form so that he didn't lose too much of its power over time.

Nowadays, Goku could probably whip out Kaioken Blue and turn the tables on a fully mastered Golden Freeza, but that wasn't a thing at the time.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

most of the goku defeats on super where more like "plot armor" for the villians cuz goku against most of then was showed being supperior the only one real enemy which goku really never had a chance to beat was beerus but all the others where more like "plot armor" than actually goku not really being able to beat then.

By that logic, Goku NEVER won fair and square. I mean, Frieza was legit slaughtering him and his friends on Namek, then this guy pulls out of his ass some legendary-or-something transformation and suddenly like doubles or triples his strength. If that's not plot armour, what is?

And it's still unconventional to have 'plot armour' apply to the villains. Usually it's the other way around. In Super, the Universe seems out to screw Goku in every possible way. True, he would have won against Frieza in Resurrection F - but he didn't, because he got distracted and got WOUNDED BY A FREAKIN' GUN, which was really a first. How long since conventional weapons had ANY effect on any warrior? Goku's been soloing entire armies with minimal damage since his childhood. If anything, 'plot armour' is how they still managed to stay alive and keep the Earth intact despite this streak of losses. First Beerus gets all nice and sympathetic and only blows up a fragment of Earth, then Whis rewinds time, then Hit shows respect by surrendering to Monaka, then somehow they manage to call Zen-Oh to erase Zamasu... it's always someone else providing the resolution to the arc. If it only depended on Goku's power, everyone would be screwed.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Robotech Master

Nowadays, Goku could probably whip out Kaioken Blue and turn the tables on a fully mastered Golden Freeza, but that wasn't a thing at the time.

It still shouldn't be a thing, and is the absolute highest reason I prefer the manga adaptation over the anime.

[Blueknight78]

Originally Posted by Robotech Master

It is absolutely, 100% canon confirmed that Golden Freeza is stronger the Super Saiyan Blue. Both Goku and Vegeta firmly admitted to not being able to win if Freeza had mastered the form so that he didn't lose too much of its power over time.

Nowadays, Goku could probably whip out Kaioken Blue and turn the tables on a fully mastered Golden Freeza, but that wasn't a thing at the time.

yeah that was a change they did from the movie to the anime cuz in the movie goku was absolute strong than frieza then anime make frieza more strong, but still a thing which goku was still holding himself well against frieza until frieza run out of power which was the reason he lost in battle and had to relly in the dirty trick to win.

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

By that logic, Goku NEVER won fair and square. I mean, Frieza was legit slaughtering him and his friends on Namek, then this guy pulls out of his ass some legendary-or-something transformation and suddenly like doubles or triples his strength. If that's not plot armour, what is?

And it's still unconventional to have 'plot armour' apply to the villains. Usually it's the other way around. In Super, the Universe seems out to screw Goku in every possible way. True, he would have won against Frieza in Resurrection F - but he didn't, because he got distracted and got WOUNDED BY A FREAKIN' GUN, which was really a first. How long since conventional weapons had ANY effect on any warrior? Goku's been soloing entire armies with minimal damage since his childhood. If anything, 'plot armour' is how they still managed to stay alive and keep the Earth intact despite this streak of losses. First Beerus gets all nice and sympathetic and only blows up a fragment of Earth, then Whis rewinds time, then Hit shows respect by surrendering to Monaka, then somehow they manage to call Zen-Oh to erase Zamasu... it's always someone else providing the resolution to the arc. If it only depended on Goku's power, everyone would be screwed.

yeah plot armour is more common to heroes than villains and goku had some of then specially against frieza in the first battle, i was just point which most of the times was showed which the "blue power" was still a thing and most of his lose where more due to "others reasons than just blue being "weak".

also afar i remember while both vegita and goku already where used to "blue power" the power was still "something new" which they achieved not so long a go and they just learned to controll it but only later which they could really pull the full potential of it in the tournament arc, where only hit could show being able to be too much strong, something like "blue from tournamente > from blue from frieza arc.


anothere note

going to the all universe big tournamente rule of battle royale, who do you thing gonna be the "order of Z warriors ring out", like who gonna be throwed first and the last one "before goku" being the one to battle the big end enemy?

like the order /rank of guys to fall
for me could be:
1 master rioshi
2 tenshinhan
3 kuririn
4 piccolo
5 number 18
6 number 17
7/8 gohan/ majin bu
9 vegita

then goku will remains to fight the "hero guy" which probably will defeat hit and show being strong than him.

what could be your bet in which order the z warriors start to drop down

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

yeah that was a change they did from the movie to the anime cuz in the movie goku was absolute strong than frieza then anime make frieza more strong, but still a thing which goku was still holding himself well against frieza until frieza run out of power which was the reason he lost in battle and had to relly in the dirty trick to win.

No, he wasn't. You really need to rewatch it. Right after Frieza notices Beerus is there, and confirms he won't interfere, he says he'll continue his revenge. At this point Goku asks him to just leave while he (Frieza) is winning, since the tide is going to turn soon due to the form wearing him out.

Beerus and Whis then comment, after Frieza starts getting stomped, that the tide turned as Goku/Vegeta said it would.

[grecefar]

to think that goku's now turned heel, well I like it this way, is more interesting.

[Calca]

Originally Posted by grecefar

to think that goku's now turned heel, well I like it this way, is more interesting.

Goku's new theme