[Manga] Do you believe Kakashi's words?

[BlackShinobi07]

Originally Posted by Black-Cat-Sama

well... please enlighten me. Please show me who ahs been able to touch Tobi all this time... (deidara's comic relief doesnt count)

No one has been able to touch him.Not even Naruto. So if Naruto is stronger than one of the strongest characters, what chance do they have?

[naruto89]

Originally Posted by BlackShinobi07

No one has been able to touch him.Not even Naruto. So if Naruto is stronger than one of the strongest characters, what chance do they have?

is that because he has a lack of power or isnt strong enough (naruto) or is it something else? (which seems obvious)

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by BlackShinobi07

No one has been able to touch him.Not even Naruto. So if Naruto is stronger than one of the strongest characters, what chance do they have?

We should know how this works. It's villain hype. No one had ever so much as scratched Gaara before he fought against Rock Lee. Everyone believed he could'nt be hurt and Naruto ended up beating him. This is the same thing.

Madara is very powerful, but he'll have some kind of weakness to exploit. There's probably a couple of characters besides Naruto that will be able to fight against him. But Naruto or Sasuke are the only ones I see actually defeating him.

Originally Posted by naruto89

is that because he has a lack of power or isnt strong enough (naruto) or is it something else? (which seems obvious)

Not necessarily just lack of power. Akatsuki always dominates the first encounter, until the good guys figure out how their powers work. I think that Naruto will still have to receive a power-up to face Madara, because he is still a dangerous opponent with Sharingan. But figuring out how to counter his abilities is the main thing.

[Ichimaru]

Originally Posted by Naotaka

Except we all know that Kakashi has paper seals, to prevent Naruto from going 4 tails from Jiraiya. Infact we've already seen Kakashi use it on Naruto before. So this argument of yours goes right out the window.

its not out of the window

3t naruto is still able to deal enough damage to scare shitz out of kakashi

[Naotaka]

@Naotaka
Naruto will never show that his stronger that kakashi the way you expect him to. the fact is naruto is a brawler type. he fights his oponents with pure strenght and chakra. if your're expecting naruto to fight with style it will never happen. kakashi one the under hand is more of a tactical type. if he and naruto had the same amount of pure strenght and power. kakashi is obviously the winner. but narutos has come to such a point that it may have surpassed kakachi's tactics. naruto is kinda like kenpachi from bleach minus the badassness. his brute strenght and power can prob over power people that use thier brains sometimes. I agree with your speculation about kakashi might just be modest. and like you i don't give a crap about naruto nor kakashi, but it seems your arguments is based more on your pure hatred of naruto...thus biased. I am just giving the poor guy break something kishi has failed to do in a while

I'm sorry if I give off the impression that I hate Naruto or something, I really don't. If you want to know the characters that I actually hate, it's Sasuke. The characters I actually like, are Neji, Lee, & Sai. Everyone else is just there. I don't hate Naruto, I don't love Kakashi. I'm just sick of logic, that is on par with the uchia tards, which is omg Naruto is the best ruxxor 1337 Naruto woohhhhh!!! When he proves he is able to beat an opponent someone else like Kakshi can't, then I'll give him the respect he deserves, till then he's just the same old Naruto with a really really strong jitsu.

Thank you sensei, I will do, but think about your comment. Your perfectly right about modesty, but who are shounen 4 originally? teenagers & preteens! Kishi is writing for a young audience so modesty has to b shown visually, not done with words. Anyhu, i'm done with this argument. Your opinion has clouded your judgement & caused you to disregard blatent fact. I can't be bothered anymore.

Ah but you see this is where the problem is. The manga is actually written for people in Japan, who belive it or not know a thing about respect & modesty. Where as people in the states, (that would be the United States of America) are like zomg I'm so leet, I kick ass everyone else can go **** themselves, I'm number one, we're number one!!! America we're so cool we rule the world. So no it's not clouded, you just have no cultural experience, or realise anything outside of this little world you call the good ol USoA.

Interesting, I guess, a non-Uchiha working so hard to make the borrowed Sharingan reach its maximum capacity is not a feature to respect.

On Kakashi and Naruto comparison, even though Naruto may not have proved on the whole that he is better than Kakashi, he achieved a feature neither Kakashi nor Yondaime (and maybe even Jiraiya ) was able to achieve, and he developed a jutsu on his own for which Kakashi may not be able to match the strength in its own lifetime. In other words, Naruto displayed some features which may put him above Kakashi.

Funny if you read my posts, you might of seen where I said, Kakashi might respect that Naruto has more Chalkra & Stamina and there for is able to achieve things Kakashi may not be able too, that's why he has so much respect for him, but that doesn't mean Naruto is > Kakashi all of a sudden, as there are things Kakashi is capable of that Naruto isn't. But why read, when it's easier just to throw a ***** fest, and hope you win an argument that way.

That’s what I like about selective Reasoning!

Could you agree then that When Itachi run away from Jiraiya it was more because he had fought Kakashi and Kurenai and Sasuke before?

Yeah, Kakuuzu faced a team of Shinobies, but the Manga never hinted in any way that When Naruto showed and faced him alone, Kakuzu was not in condition to fight him(this is what happens when you begin to counter the facts from the author, you begin to create things on your own). In addition, whatever happened to Kakuuuzu before his skirmish with Naruto is totally irrelevant, given his Experience and Intelligence was still there, the same aspects you used to Indicate why Kakashi was lying.

WTF are you talking about, what does Itachi have anything to do with this? And are you suggesting Kakuzu who already lost 2/5 of his hearts, was in perfect condition to fight and there for it's irrelivent? What mentally retarted logic is this? One on one Kakuzu would of killed Naruto with out any problems. He fell for a stupid jitsu, that took out two of his hearts and immobilized Naruto himself. If Kakuzu was in perfect condition, he would of walked up to the limp body of Naruto and offed his sorry behind. You go on to criticize me about how I make up senerios of what would of happened this way or that way. Yet you pull the same crap of, "oh well Kakuzu who was already injured in fight, would of lost to Naruto anyways even if he was in perfect condition, since it's irrelavint that he was injured". Hypocrite? I think so.

And About the Hokage thing said by Jiriaya and Tsunade, The Manga has never proved that Kakashi is Hokage level of strength, so why do you believe Jiriaya and Tsuande, but You say Kakashi is lying? Or you either believe both, or don’t believe both, if you believe one or the other, you are just been subjective on your observation

I understand you're slow so I'll try to explain it carefully. Your point is that because Kakashi (who by the way is the only person to say this) said that Naruto is stronger then him, means Naruto is stronger then him. That's one person in the manga who helps back up your argument. I on the other hand show 2 people, who are stronger then Kakashi, with beliefs that are different. Meaning they think Kakashi is better then Naruto. I also point out that the manga hasn't proven in any fight, that Naruto is actually stronger then Kakashi. Since Kakuzu, was already injured, when Naruto hit him, he was worried about several ninjas, wasted his chalkra, and his stamina, and what ever else I might be forgeting. The only thing it proved was that Naruto has developed a very lethal jitsu, that is stronger then Kakashi's Chadori. Point being is there are more sources, in the manga that say Kakashi is stronger then Naruto then Naruto is stronger then Kakashi. But you feel like being up on the high horse of Naruto is Ruxxor 1337 Naruto Naruto Naruto. Simular to the Sasuke tards. When there is absolutly nothing concreate, that Naruto has actually advanced past a level of where Kakashi is, to end this debate.

Is not that you give a Danm about Kakashi or Not, is seems that you don’t seem content or convinced about something showed to you. Is the same as people who did not believed that Itachi was stronger than Oro, since it was mentioned by Oro, People where second guessing this quote because they just didn’t like it, and used the same line of argument you are using right now.

Er not going to repeat myself so just see the above statement.

why and for what benefit are you all arguing so fiercely about?

Because since I don't see eye to eye, with people I'm automaticly laballed as crazy, for pointing out the things I belive. And others just want to seem cool, by trying to prove me wrong. Plus it's rather amusing, the type of crap that I end up reading anways. So why not.


Edit:

But to get to the point you tried to make, if the Hokage would had been only about the strongest, Oro would had been selected as Hokage. The only reason Why Oro was not selected as Hokage was because of his Twisted ideas…awwwwhhhhhhhhh Look how your “Hokage is the strongest and that’s it” rant falls of right of the table…with facts from the Author!

What? How exactly does my logic fail? Orochimaru, would of been considered for the title of Hokage yes. There isn't any proof that he would of gotten it. Also, yea the people of the leaf don't want a lunatic running the show. Can you blame them. However fact is, if it wasn't for that little psychotic behavoir, Orochimaru would of had a good shot at the title Hokage. So I fail to see where my logic goes right of the table.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Naotaka

Funny if you read my posts, you might of seen where I said, Kakashi might respect that Naruto has more Chalkra & Stamina and there for is able to achieve things Kakashi may not be able too, that's why he has so much respect for him, but that doesn't mean Naruto is > Kakashi all of a sudden, as there are things Kakashi is capable of that Naruto isn't. But why read, when it's easier just to throw a ***** fest, and hope you win an argument that way.

It is not only Naruto having more chakra, or more stamina compared to Kakashi. It is also how Naruto utilized those to achieve something in a way not expected from his former self, illustrating his developments and making Kakashi feel the way he felt about Naruto. The main things Naruto lacks is tactical intelligence and skills to make best use of his abilities. But, in terms of pure strength he had already showed how much he is capable of compared to Kakashi. And that means something.

You may not give a "damn" about Kakashi or his words - as you may believe that to be completely opposing your beliefs -, but, you cannot say it doesn't have any truth in it, based on what you have observed. The problem with what we saw until now, is the lack of Kishi imagination to illustrate that clearly. That also does not mean what we have illustrates exactly the opposite.

[Naotaka]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

It is not only Naruto having more chakra, or more stamina compared to Kakashi. It is also how Naruto utilized those to achieve something in a way not expected from his former self, illustrating his developments and making Kakashi feel the way he felt about Naruto. The main things Naruto lacks is tactical intelligence and skills to make best use of his abilities. But, in terms of pure strength he had already showed how much he is capable of compared to Kakashi. And that means something.

You may not give a "damn" about Kakashi or his words - as you may believe that to be completely opposing your beliefs -, but, you cannot say it doesn't have any truth in it, based on what you have observed. The problem with what we saw until now, is the lack of Kishi imagination to illustrate that clearly. That also does not mean what we have illustrates exactly the opposite.

But it is. Because Naruto has so much more chalkra and more stamina he is able to do things other ninjas just can't do. Look at his latest training session. Only he can do it, no one else can. Why? Because Naruto has nearly unlimited chalkra. He achieves increadible jitsus that require a large amount of chalkra that's why they are so damn lethal. I'm sure Kakashi also respects the fact that Naruto went from being a worthless prankster to what he is now. And in some respects, like the wind shuriken rasengan, I'm sure Kakashi feels Naruto has out done him. So no it's not a total line of bull. However in a one on one fight. There is very little evidance that would suggest Naruto would beat Kakashi, since each person is able to perform a killing jitsu on the other, and Kakashi just has more experience, and smarts, I'd reckon he has more speed too, but I'm not going to push that one, since it would be hard to prove.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Naotaka

And in some respects, like the wind shuriken rasengan, I'm sure Kakashi feels Naruto has out done him.

That is exactly the reason why Kakashi felt that way. Not because Naruto had more chakra, but what he achieved with that chakra. And, to be honest, I see this not much different than Kakashi developing MS with an implanted Sharingan. How many would have achieved that? You can ask the same question for Naruto. Not having any other person to make that comparison does not give us the right to undermine his achievements.

However in a one on one fight. There is very little evidance that would suggest Naruto would beat Kakashi, since each person is able to perform a killing jitsu on the other, and Kakashi just has more experience, and smarts, I'd reckon he has more speed too, but I'm not going to push that one, since it would be hard to prove.

In a one on one fight, you cannot predict the result even between different level opponents. The only thing you can rely on is how one person views the other, even if it is definitely not expected to be foolproof. (if you ask Naruto, he will never tell you that he is stronger than Kakashi)

Regarding the result of a possible fight, anything is possible. Kakashi has the intelligence, tactics, experience, and Sharingan (including genjutsu). Naruto has the chakra, stamina, destructive power, summons (I think I don't need to remind the strength of a summon), and one of the worst possible enemy of Sharingan, almost limitless clones (add the surprise factor too). Again, anything is possible in such a fight, regardless of who can be seen as having upper hand.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by Naotaka

However in a one on one fight. There is very little evidance that would suggest Naruto would beat Kakashi, since each person is able to perform a killing jitsu on the other, and Kakashi just has more experience, and smarts, I'd reckon he has more speed too, but I'm not going to push that one, since it would be hard to prove.

-Interesting idea. Mind if I take a crack at deducing this "fictional" Naruto VS. Kakashi fight?

-Here is what we know for a fact in regards to the 2 fighters:

-Kakashi:
-Has the Sharingan.
-He has the Mangekyo Sharingan.
-Has Raikiri.
-Has his hounds.
-Several copied jutsu (note that the number is only rumored to be 1000 since we only hear this from Zabuza near the begining and was never actually proven).
-He's a conventional and tactful ninja.
-Can use Genjutsu.

-Naruto:
-Has Kage Bunshin and is thus capable of gauging Kakashi's reaction time as well as dodging critical blows and minimizing the Sharingan's ability to detect him.
-Has the Rasengan, Oodama Rasengan, Fuuton: Rasengan and Rasenshuriken.
-Can summon the toads.
-The Kyuubi chakra and Tailed modes 1 through 4.
-An unpredictable and unconventional ninja.
-Learned how to counter some Genjutsu.

-Here's the factors that are up in the air:

-The paper seal that prevents the Kyuubi chakra (Since we are going by stated facts only this is inconclusive for we've seen him use it once. I have no reason to believe he received or made more copies.)

-Kakashi's speed is debateable. We know that Kakuzu was able to kick him even with the Sharingan activated. But there is no doubt that it is at least decent.

-Here's the determining factors that would decide the winner:

-How well do the 2 fighters know one another.
-Who can use the skills and assets that they have to their advantge in regards to the situation.
-The evironment (like landscape, weather and so on).

-That's all I can think of at the moment but it should be enough to come to some sort of conclusion. In my opinion: the fight's outcome is inconclusive.

[Ichimaru]

i will end this debate naruto v kakashi

naruto doesnt lay bricks when his fightin orochimaru

compared to kakashi who was layin bricks when orochimaru put fear in his eyes

PS. orochimaru is useless in front of sharingan, something kakashi hasnt found out yet, had he found out about it sooner then later, he wont be layin bricks on a daily basis

[Medalist]

Originally Posted by Ichimaru

i will end this debate naruto v kakashi

naruto doesnt lay bricks when his fightin orochimaru

compared to kakashi who was layin bricks when orochimaru put fear in his eyes

PS. orochimaru is useless in front of sharingan, something kakashi hasnt found out yet, had he found out about it sooner then later, he wont be layin bricks on a daily basis

Eh I wouldn't exactly say Naruto would beat Kakashi.

Naruto could potentially beat Kakashi.

Kakashi is smarter than Naruto, but I only say that, as if Kakashi were put into a losing situation, he'd give up.

Judging from what has been said in the series however, Kakashi is the most skilled ninja in the village, and plus Tsunade had Kakashi be her first choice for Hokage.

[Goshin]

it seems that we are suffering from no manga-to-read syndrome, where we start arguing about shit endlessly. I must admit its fun to watch and take part of. It looks like this really won't be settled untill naruto and co vs tob/madara/~obito continues, and we get to see hopefully the last naruto development of the year.... that page were he crashed in the wonder, his face said that he means buisiness and he ain't going to play around anymore. I have a feeling that tobi might be weak against the FRS, why else would he consider it dangerous if he is the infamous Uchiha Madara. that is prob why he sent pain after naruto because pain's bodies would be effective counters.... they'll be able to watch from all angles and make sure a FRS don't sneak up on them.

[Naotaka]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

That is exactly the reason why Kakashi felt that way. Not because Naruto had more chakra, but what he achieved with that chakra. And, to be honest, I see this not much different than Kakashi developing MS with an implanted Sharingan. How many would have achieved that? You can ask the same question for Naruto. Not having any other person to make that comparison does not give us the right to undermine his achievements.

In a one on one fight, you cannot predict the result even between different level opponents. The only thing you can rely on is how one person views the other, even if it is definitely not expected to be foolproof. (if you ask Naruto, he will never tell you that he is stronger than Kakashi)

Regarding the result of a possible fight, anything is possible. Kakashi has the intelligence, tactics, experience, and Sharingan (including genjutsu). Naruto has the chakra, stamina, destructive power, summons (I think I don't need to remind the strength of a summon), and one of the worst possible enemy of Sharingan, almost limitless clones (add the surprise factor too). Again, anything is possible in such a fight, regardless of who can be seen as having upper hand.

I'm not undermining his achievements. I think everyone else, is just over exaderating them. He works with what he has, just like every other shinobi. He's one of the very few people who has a bijuu inside of him. Meaining a very select handfull of people have nearly unlimited chalkra. He took an ability that was created by someone else, and worked on adding an element to it. Yea great w/e.

Yes he does have one of the most destructive jitsus. I never argued that. However it's like saying I can kill you with a gun, but instead i'm going to use a rocket launcher. Aside from having a very strong jitsu and near limitless chalkra / stamina, he doesn't have much going for him. Every single thing needs to be explained to Naruto as if he is still a 5 year old. Look at his Kage bushin which he has used for 3 years now, and that is one of his staple move. Untill Kakashi said, hey Naruto you realise what ever your Kage Bushin learns you learn too right? Naruto "omg I'm an idiot, I've been using this move for 3 years, and I've never noticed."

In reality he is kind of sad. I give him props for having a lot of heart and giving it all he has, despite how he was raised, and the positions he finds himself in. However over all there is nothing that impressive about him. There's nothing that makes me think, Naruto is great. Infact if the Manga wasn't named after him, he'd be a second rate character. The only reason we know he is due for greatness is because of the title. Otherwise half the people reading this story wouldn't even know who the main character is.

So like I said before, Naruto is able to achieve something others can't because he has a demon fox inside of him. I'm not saying it's cheap or trying to take anything away from him there. It's really no different then any bs blood line ability that makes you unstoppable, like most of the dojutsus we've seen. But there isn't anything that makes me go wow about our main hero either.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by fila

i think that the choice of itachi going after naruto was wise

I think it would be wise not to go after anyone. Especially not Naruto amoung the jinchuuriki.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Considering Naruto's future, of course, what he did is an important step towards that goal. I am not ignoring what he did. But, to me, the fight and its preparation has showed only what he is capable of doing (it is more like Kakashi's not completely efficient MS), more like pointer towards future, rather than pointer towards now.

About what Kakashi said, Naruto has the strength, and if Naruto can perform brilliantly from beginning to the end, yes, Kakashi's words have a lot of meanings. But, both you and I know that, right now, this is not the case. Naruto has yet to reach that level on the average rather than showing that at the peaks.

That I can easily agree with except I think my view of Naruto's current strength is closer to the peak (and I mean current peak, not potential) than your idea of average because what made him look like a "noob" was his first faillure to handle correctly the FRS. To go into details, even if it wasn't really my point, did Naruto appear to still have this problem when he attacked Kakuzu the 2nd time?
No he timed his attack perfectly contrary to the first time and I find very unlikely Kishimoto will use this same "gag" twice. So basically even by what the manga has shown Naruto has currently the level to close in and strike on someone with the level of Kakuzu in a couple of second and kill him.
He also has the level to do this even if his opponent knows about his jutsu and tries to avoid close range which is already more than Kakashi managed to achieve.

Now as you know I thought the way Kishimoto choose to represent this scene was plain stupid but it would be even more stupid of me to say it didn't happen.
The fact is that within the Naruto universe Naruto outsmarted (he was even compared to Shikamaru after the fight), outmanoeuvred and outpowered Kakuzu. In seconds.
Yes Naruto messed up once and had to be saved by Kakashi and Yamato and yes this is one of the reasons Sasuke is better than Naruto right now but there is no reason to decide Naruto's growth stopped at this very moment until the next training session.
I read someone saying Tsunade and Jiraiya disagree with Kakashi, well they most certainely do not. The very fact Naruto is the second name they thought about after the strongest Jounin in the village whereas he is still the brat we all know is proof of how strong Naruto is supposed to be.

I think no one is arguing the future. The past is what we are talking about.

I'm not talking about how strong Naruto will be eventually by the end of the manga because he is the main character, I'm talking right now using the skills he has shown previously.

I think you are changing the point. I didn't find the results unbelievable (even I defended Naruto's win against Kakuzu at the end). The problem is what was intended to be shown and what is shown are not matching. And, of course, that is highly related to Kishimito's failure in delivering, but, expecting him to over exaggerate the conditions to match his intentions would not do a lot of good to Naruto and his development. Instead, he should have avoided the over exaggeration, so that, the next thing he shows would have matched his intentions in the best possible way.

No I really don't think I'm changing the point, in fact the sentence I bolded is the crux of the discussion.
I think most people agree with your sentence the difference is I take the "what was intended to be shown" as more important than "what is shown" because this is a work of fiction and if the autor had something in mind when he imagined the scene then this is what will matter when he will imagine what come next regardless of what you think he really delivered.

When the autor fails to convince you it doesn't mean he is wrong, it means you're going to suffer from suspension of disbelief.

I used a lot of example for Naruto so let's use Sasuke for once, many people didn't buy Sasuke summoning Manda to escape Deidara's last explosion right?
That being said saying Sasuke didn't have the chakra nor the time to escape is delusional... because that's what he did. You may find unbelievable "what was shown" but it's the truth nonetheless.

[David_The_Gnome]

What I find lame about this whole thing is that the story really does fail at it's theme about hard work, etc regarding Naruto.

You see the theme somewhat applying to people like Lee. But this is the main character we're talking about.

Kishi framed him as the underdog, whose going to outdo the genius through sheer hardwork, instead of talent. But if you've seen it, almost all the other characters in the series have gotten to where they are with training. Even Sasuke (who was suppose to be the typecasted prodigy) has shown his growth by training for 3 years.

And all you see with Naruto is his lack of common sense (example: the Kage Bushin memory thing) and bigger nukes. He didn't exactly work harder than anybody else to obtain his skills. By circumstance, he just has unlimited chakra which allowed him to do so. How is that really different than the typecasted prodigy that Kishi tried to pin into the show? There wasn't any handicap to begin with.

Forget Kakashi. By default, he could probably pwn people like Jiaraya right from the beginning of the show just by unleashing the Kyuubi, which basically nulls all the progress he's had up to this point.

And right now with the nukes that he's gotten he's apparently strong enough to take on the Akatsuki, and excel beyond Kakashi. I'm not going to blind and doubt that.

But that's like me being able to pwn Rickson Gracie in a fight cause I purchased a rocketlauncher. It's not skill anymore, which is why I think there's so much disbelief regarding his progress.

[Naotaka]

The very fact Naruto is the second name they thought about after the strongest Jounin in the village whereas he is still the brat we all know is proof of how strong Naruto is supposed to be.

While that is a point to note, that I never actually gave much thought. Another reason can easily be explained as they both care deeply about Naruto for their own reasons. There for he is just someone they constently think about. I belive Jiraiya said, that he felt almost as if Naruto was a grandson to him. We also know that after Naruto was able to perform the Rasengan in a week and win the bet against Tsunade, she has placed her beliefs in him, to achieve something that the people closest to her failed to do. In fact from the way it seemed Tsunade compared Naruto to her younger brother, who not only looked like him but had very simular ideals. You maybe right in fact that he is very strong and that's why his name came about, after Kakashi. But I think it's more for the reasons that they are strongly attached to him, and think about him constently. After all, after they did bring up Naruto's name, they also agreed on the fact that Naruto has a ways to go still before he can become Hokage.

[Hunter]

You see Naotaka you can indeed come up with rationalization about everything.
Kakashi is too modest (and maybe drunk when he saw Yondaime outlined around Naruto), Jiraiya is biaised because he thinks of Naruto as his grandson, Tsunade is biaised because Naruto reminds her of her dead brother/lover and reminded her of her nindo, Yamato... Well Yamato is probably a drug addict anyway so you can't really trust him, etc.

... That or Kishimoto is trying to tell us something. With a brick.

Originally Posted by Naotaka

After all, after they did bring up Naruto's name, they also agreed on the fact that Naruto has a ways to go still before he can become Hokage.

Well of course, like I said Naruto is still a brat and he is way too obsessed with his own personal issue to be a good Hokage right now anyway. Strength isn't everything.

[Naotaka]

Originally Posted by Hunter

You see Naotaka you can indeed come up with rationalization about everything.
Kakashi is too modest (and maybe drunk when he saw Yondaime outlined around Naruto), Jiraiya is biaised because he thinks of Naruto as his grandson, Tsunade is biaised because Naruto reminds her of her dead brother/lover and reminded her of her nindo, Yamato... Well Yamato is probably a drug addict anyway so you can't really trust him, etc.

... That or Kishimoto is trying to tell us something. With a brick.

I think it's the first choise to be honest.

But hey you know, if you can rationalize, that Sasuke wasn't trying to kill team 7 when they met in Orochimaru's lair, even though the manga was clearly pointing that way how is this any different?

[Hunter]

I'm not sure you chose the right example since I'm not really sure he wasn't trying to kill them but if you want the difference it's rather simple : we do know from Sasuke's statements and actions that he was lying big time.
He lied about wanting to give his body to Oro whereas he was planning to take him out since the beginning and he obviously lied when he said he believed he had no chance against his brother consdering what he is doing right now.
You can also say that he obviously could have killed them easily had he wanted to with the level of power he has shown since this chapter but I always find this kind of argument rather weak.
Anyway since we know for a fact almost everything he was saying was a lie this isn't farfetched to believe everything was lie even if it's still up in the air.