Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[azul120]

From the image thread:

Originally Posted by Kusaja

I'm sure the people responsible for this project don't see it that way. And I agree with them.

Here's the thing: the end, which included Lelouch's final fate, was predicated on him answering for what he had done. The reality though is that he was affected by Informed Wrongness, not to mention a measure of bad luck, and that his so called making amends had him be an even bigger bastard.

If it turns out that he's been "geassed" into being Julius Kingsley, then he's only been put through more character abuse, practically forced into doing stuff anathema to him, and his year long absence, which the BKs hold completely against him, was even worse on him than they realize.

[Kusaja]

Whatever terrible things he is forced to do as Julius Kingsley, that wouldn't make Lelouch feel blameless for everything else.

It would just add to his feelings of anger against Charles and Suzaku after recovering his memories, but the rest of the plot wouldn't have to change course.

You can feel a bit more sympathetic to his suffering after knowing this happened between seasons, I guess, but Lelouch's not asking for anyone's pity.

He always had a very self-destructive way of dealing with guilt and never refused to call many of his own actions evil despite their positive consequences.

Just like how he rallied the Japanese after murdering Euphemia but still felt terrible about it and acted like a villain when confronted by Suzaku and Kallen.

[Zero Gravity]

Lelouch exists to be tortured by Sunrise. We only learned that every episode of S1 and R2. And every canon AU. And all canon side material. It's just more of the same.

And it's okay, because he asks for it and he doesn't complain.

And we love it.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Zero Gravity

Lelouch exists to be tortured by Sunrise. We only learned that every episode of S1 and R2. And every cannon AU. And all cannon side material. It's just more of the same.

And it's okay, because he asks for it and he doesn't complain.

And we love it.

Actually some of us are sick of it.

[Kusaja]

I'm sick of the focus on Lelouch, but that's why I like the fact he's not the focus of Akito. Just the icing on the cake, not the main course.

Which some people find delicious, others find disgusting and still more don't really care about it either way.

I'm not about to repeat the whole argument again though, at least not before Akito ends, so that's that.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

Whatever terrible things he is forced to do as Julius Kingsley, that wouldn't make Lelouch feel blameless for everything else.

It would just add to his feelings of anger against Charles and Suzaku after recovering his memories, but the rest of the plot wouldn't have to change course.

You can feel a bit more sympathetic to his suffering after knowing this happened between seasons, I guess, but Lelouch's not asking for anyone's pity.

He always had a very self-destructive way of dealing with guilt and never refused to call many of his own actions evil despite their positive consequences.

Just like how he rallied the Japanese after murdering Euphemia but still felt terrible about it and acted like a villain when confronted by Suzaku and Kallen.

Just because he never made excuses doesn't mean he deserved it. He got more crap dumped on him than he deserved, even though he did a great deal of the work towards a better world. (To which end I speak of his work as Zero to the point he helped create the UFN, and that his original endgame of taking down the Britannian Empire was within reach.) If he deserves to die, than so do some of the others who lived on instead.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Zero Gravity

Lelouch exists to be tortured by Sunrise. We only learned that every episode of S1 and R2. And every canon AU. And all canon side material. It's just more of the same.

And it's okay, because he asks for it and he doesn't complain.

And we love it.

Originally Posted by azul120

Just because he never made excuses doesn't mean he deserved it. He got more crap dumped on him than he deserved, even though he did a great deal of the work towards a better world. (To which end I speak of his work as Zero to the point he helped create the UFN, and that his original endgame of taking down the Britannian Empire was within reach.) If he deserves to die, than so do some of the others who lived on instead.

Yeah, like these two for example.

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by azul120

Just because he never made excuses doesn't mean he deserved it. He got more crap dumped on him than he deserved, even though he did a great deal of the work towards a better world. (To which end I speak of his work as Zero to the point he helped create the UFN, and that his original endgame of taking down the Britannian Empire was within reach.) If he deserves to die, than so do some of the others who lived on instead.

I wish someone could summon Lelouch so that you'd debate him and not me, since he made the decision after all.

If you stop to analyze the show from Lelouch's point of view, the issue isn't whether he deserves to die or not.

I think that's entirely the wrong question to ask because there is no universally applicable answer. I believe that's almost a red herring.

A better question might be: what path had Lelouch marched on during the first season?

It was one of chaos, destruction and getting his own hands dirty for the sake of a cause that is supposed to be considered good.

But there is no way of avoiding the resulting tension without changing the kind of person Lelouch is or the kind of story being told.

Even an alternate endgame against Britannia doesn't guarantee that Lelouch would live in the end. You can't really assume he'd play nice like a good little school boy would and never take a wrong step if only he hadn't been betrayed, or if only this or that isolated event hadn't happened. If you remove something, then you free up more time for the story, which means more time for Lelouch to suffer from bad luck or engage in a completely different set of mistakes, misjudgments or questionable actions in general.

And, since we were talking about Julius here, when you add something like that to his character arc you're still keeping everything else.

Btw...R2 does bring up the idea of Lelouch changing his motivations and aspirations a little, like during the episode where he made the promise of coming back to Ashford, but his actions never did become completely morally admirable nor did he adopt a constructive way of thinking. The way he chose to bring China into the UFN or the way he chose to deal with the unfortunate events that affected his life around this time are rather telling. One of Lelouch's character flaws is the fact he lies to everyone, even to himself on occasion, and the kind world he wished to give Nunnally wasn't going to build itself on a bed of roses. Lelouch considered himself the lesser evil, but he wasn't a knight in shining armor.

[Blackmambauk]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

I wish someone could summon Lelouch so that you'd debate him and not me, since he made the decision after all.

If you stop to analyze the show from Lelouch's point of view, the issue isn't whether he deserves to die or not.

I think that's entirely the wrong question to ask because there is no universally applicable answer. I believe that's almost a red herring.

A better question might be: what path had Lelouch marched on during the first season?

It was one of chaos, destruction and getting his own hands dirty for the sake of a cause that is supposed to be considered good.

But there is no way of avoiding the resulting tension without changing the kind of person Lelouch is or the kind of story being told.

Even an alternate endgame against Britannia doesn't guarantee that Lelouch would live in the end. You can't really assume he'd play nice like a good little school boy would and never take a wrong step. R2 does bring up the idea of Lelouch changing his motivations and aspirations a little, like during the episode where he made the promise of coming back to Ashford, but his actions never did become completely morally admirable nor did he adopt a constructive way of thinking. The way he chose to bring China into the UFN or the way he chose to deal with the unfortunate events that affected his life around this time is rather telling. One of Lelouch's character flaws is the fact he lies to everyone, even to himself on occasion, and the kind world he wished to give Nunnally wasn't going to build itself on a bed of roses. Lelouch considered himself the lesser evil, but he wasn't a knight in shining armor.

Very well said Kusaja, Azul120 is right in that the shit Lulu got in the series he generally didn't deserved, or at the very least not to the degree he got, as While lulu is certainly a very flawed person who made some questionable decisions and silly mistakes on the way, he wasn't in my personal view evil.

He was what's a good word, a Byronic hero, who despite his flaws, we root for because the world he is in is so crapsack. Also whom was overcoming some of his issues and flaws until fate once again gave him a shit hand (Rolo).

In a way, Code Geass shows how while Lelouch has the intelligence and charisma to be Zero, his mental problems and his pride, not to mention for a while putting his loved ones over everyone else screwed him over, along with the shit luck, and all that he has.

As his father and elder brother certainly were worse people than him, whether Lulu was always going to end up dead or not by the end of Code Geass is debateable, but the fact that the things that happened to Lelouch drove his fragile mental state over the edge so by the end, he no longer cared if he died, and as a result chose a very destructive way of going out and redeeming himself in his eyes.

While unfortunately falling back on one of his old flaws of not thinking about the negative consequences of his actions, as shown a few times with his decision to use Rolo and Viletta in his plans. A very tragic end for ultimately a tragic person who suffered form a mix of bad luck, mistakes backfiring in ways he couldn't foresee (though ymmv on that) and being screwed over a lot of times.

All the while we get reminded that some people can makes stupid mistakes or do bad stuff and get away with it, shows how unfair and frustrating life can be at times.

That's just my personal view on the matter, we can discuss this matter for years and people will always have a different view on Lelouch.

Which is one of the charms I feel Code Geass has, that everyone can be viewed in different ways, for different reasons.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

I wish someone could summon Lelouch so that you'd debate him and not me, since he made the decision after all.

If you stop to analyze the show from Lelouch's point of view, the issue isn't whether he deserves to die or not.

I think that's entirely the wrong question to ask because there is no universally applicable answer. I believe that's almost a red herring.

A better question might be: what path had Lelouch marched on during the first season?

It was one of chaos, destruction and getting his own hands dirty for the sake of a cause that is supposed to be considered good.

But there is no way of avoiding the resulting tension without changing the kind of person Lelouch is or the kind of story being told.

Even an alternate endgame against Britannia doesn't guarantee that Lelouch would live in the end. You can't really assume he'd play nice like a good little school boy would and never take a wrong step if only he hadn't been betrayed, or if only this or that isolated event hadn't happened. If you remove something, then you free up more time for the story, which means more time for Lelouch to suffer from bad luck or engage in a completely different set of mistakes, misjudgments or questionable actions in general.

And, since we were talking about Julius here, when you add something like that to his character arc you're still keeping everything else.

Btw...R2 does bring up the idea of Lelouch changing his motivations and aspirations a little, like during the episode where he made the promise of coming back to Ashford, but his actions never did become completely morally admirable nor did he adopt a constructive way of thinking. The way he chose to bring China into the UFN or the way he chose to deal with the unfortunate events that affected his life around this time are rather telling. One of Lelouch's character flaws is the fact he lies to everyone, even to himself on occasion, and the kind world he wished to give Nunnally wasn't going to build itself on a bed of roses. Lelouch considered himself the lesser evil, but he wasn't a knight in shining armor.

He left Xing-ke and the rest of China with autonomy.

Given more time, had he been able to make it through the conflict, he might have been able to mellow out.

[wredsa]

Pardon my Ignorance, but could someone explain me how did Lelouch got back his memory after kissing C.C at the end of R2 episode 1. Does C.C have other talents we do not know yet.

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by wredsa

Pardon my Ignorance, but could someone explain me how did Lelouch got back his memory after kissing C.C at the end of R2 episode 1. Does C.C have other talents we do not know yet.

This is going to sound silly, but it's the truth.

C.C. kissed Lelouch at the end of season one, just before they split up.

Then she kissed him again at the beginning of the second season and his memories came back.

Why exactly did it work or how that power should be described is a mystery.

[Drkz]

Originally Posted by wredsa

Pardon my Ignorance, but could someone explain me how did Lelouch got back his memory after kissing C.C at the end of R2 episode 1. Does C.C have other talents we do not know yet.

Shes one of the people with the oldest codes alive. She probably has the ability to nullify someone's geass to a certain degree. When she kissed lelouch I'm guessing she broke the geass that charle's put on lelouch.

[wredsa]

Originally Posted by Drkz

Shes one of the people with the oldest codes alive. She probably has the ability to nullify someone's geass to a certain degree. When she kissed lelouch I'm guessing she broke the geass that charle's put on lelouch.

So you are saying it is kinda like Jeremiah's anti-geass. I wonder why C.C did not kiss Nunnally then lol.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by wredsa

Pardon my Ignorance, but could someone explain me how did Lelouch got back his memory after kissing C.C at the end of R2 episode 1. Does C.C have other talents we do not know yet.

This is too easy.

Answer to your inquiry: True love's kiss of course, haven't you read sleeping beauty?

[wredsa]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

This is too easy.

Answer to your inquiry: True love's kiss of course, haven't you read sleeping beauty?

, which means no one knows the answer.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by wredsa

, which means no one knows the answer.

Not really.
I would love to know (from either Okouchi or Taniguichi) why they chose to go about returning his memory that way.
It was one of the best scenes in Code Geass IMHO.

[Drkz]

Originally Posted by wredsa

So you are saying it is kinda like Jeremiah's anti-geass. I wonder why C.C did not kiss Nunnally then lol.

It wasn't her problem. It was lelouch's personal problem. If she helped him fix that problem he would no longer have his ambition anymore. She would only well (mainly) helped him when it would benefit her overall. Remember he was still under contract. In the beginning of S1 near the end of the second half of R2 C.C. was still goal driven. I think it would probably be when they where in Ragnarok did she finally change. That was probably when she actually fell in love with Lelouch(?) Although that could be debatable and instead of saying she fell in love with him; her outlook on life finally changed. But than again if the world is like what Charles said Lelouch isn't dead at all! Hes you, hes me, hes everywhere and everyone! More than anything hes retained in her World of C.

[stardrago]

Say, I heard that Funimation now owns this, are they re-planning to release the dubbed versions as well as including dub versions of the Picture dramas from R2 as well as the ovas in the near future?

[iCK]

In ep 10 of the first season, when lelouch first tells c.c. he knows her name and then says it, theres a really faint echo that you can hear her name.. its like super faint echo and i can barely make a name out of it. It sounds German though. I have like beats and they boost the bass, so the sound quality is amazing.

you can hear the echo as the raindrop falls.