Hayate no Gotoku!! (2nd Season) - Episode 3 Discussion / Poll

[Sorrow-K]

Didn't this kinda take itself way too seriously? I mean, it had the completely over-the-top, ridiculous story that's a standard of Hayate no Gotoku, but did they just forget to add the humour alongside it? Because I think I laughed twice, once at "Za Warudo" and I can't even remember what the other joke I found funny in this episode was. Then we had completely pointless sappy moments like Nagi's "what kind of master runs away when their subordinate can't move", which were just so mawkish that they were cringe-worthy (yes, I know one isn't supposed to take this show seriously... so why then is the show taking itself seriously?)

I've probably said this before, but whatever has happened to this show's bite? Has J.C. Staff just removed all its teeth?

[Von Himmel]

^
Patience, my friend
At least, from what I see, they're trying to add little by little of humour and parody inside the story. If you noticed the first 2 episode, you might find that the parody and humour were only a few compared to this. Not to mention that they're pretty implicit >.>
Well, at least they're now explicitly make a Jojo's parody. . .

Let's just hope they'll add more to the future.
Or perhaps there would be a serious arc for the future, and they're preparing for that ? Oh well let's just hope ^^;

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

I've probably said this before, but whatever has happened to this show's bite? Has J.C. Staff just removed all its teeth?

You're about the only one left complaining about that, you know? The humor is just fine.

I think J.C.Staff has raised the target age of the audience by 2-3 years and given it some substance which will last other than the endless resets of S1.

[Sorrow-K]

But doesn't substance require you take the plot somewhat seriously? Between the ghosts, robots, fightan butlers, tsundere-ko with more money than Warren Buffett, and the other elements that are really thrown in for little more than the sake of comedy, is there really much room for "substance" without it coming off as bathetic. This isn't Toradora, hell this isn't even School Rumble, which is the incredibly compromised work that Hayate no Gotoku could potentially become if it ever forgets what it is and suffers an identity crisis (the onset of which is becoming apparent in this season). School Rumble teased its audience with moments of "substance" but didn't bother developing them right up until its mind-numbing, rage-inducing and completely gutless finale.

This type of rom-com really struggles when it takes any half-way choices. If it wants to have substance, then it should go the Toradora route and only use comedy with sparse effectiveness. If it wants to be light, pointless entertainment, then its first season is a reasonable model, ie, ten different types of comedy before it even contemplates dealing with characters and relationships. Because the middle path has been followed often before, and the result is generally failure, eg, School Rumble.

Synergy got this. I'm not sure J.C. Staff has. I get the feeling J.C. Staff is compromising this anime for the sake of appeasing manga fans, and the result is a tepid, toothless brand of comedy with no bite. You can add all the substance you want, but at this stage comedy still dominates this show, and I can't see how it speaks to any more a mature audience than the first season. Hell, I'd say it's the other way around, since the first season at least had a reasonable amount of self-aware wit (which is almost a necessity in modern anime comedy). It knew it was a go-nowhere rom-com and even made jokes about the fact. In this season, it's been the characters' various gags that have been at the forefront of the comedy, and those gags have started to become tired anyway. The first season managed to offset that in the latter part with a reasonable amount of satire, parody and tongue-in-cheek humour. But it also highlights the fact that these are, essentially, gag characters, and there's very little to them past their initial two or three character traits/jokes. How do you make "substance" out of that? How do you get the audience to take that substance seriously?

[Mentar]

There's one thing I'd like to know first: Do you actually know the original source, the manga? If so, up to which chapter?

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

But doesn't substance require you take the plot somewhat seriously? Between the ghosts, robots, fightan butlers, tsundere-ko with more money than Warren Buffett, and the other elements that are really thrown in for little more than the sake of comedy, is there really much room for "substance" without it coming off as bathetic.

What I am taking seriously is the character development. We have a selection of characters (mostly girls) who develop feelings for others (mostly Hayate). I find it very interesting and appealing to see these developments - which are very nonlinear in several cases - unfold, based on various things and revelations which happen in the "frame story". And for that, I don't need to take the frame story in itself "seriously". How could anyone do that?

This isn't Toradora, hell this isn't even School Rumble, which is the incredibly compromised work that Hayate no Gotoku could potentially become if it ever forgets what it is and suffers an identity crisis (the onset of which is becoming apparent in this season). School Rumble teased its audience with moments of "substance" but didn't bother developing them right up until its mind-numbing, rage-inducing and completely gutless finale.

Agreed. Toradora is less a comedy and more tuned to the romance aspect, so it's no good comparison. School Rumble comes closer from the type, but I give Hayate much higher marks in the character development department. SR was almost 90% built up on the concept of "misunderstandings", and the mangaka took particular pleasure in intentionally p*ssing on the expectations and hopes of the fans (which is why I vowed never to pay any money whatsoever for any of his products anymore, and skipped his newer works entirely). In Hayate, the developments are more genuine and not constrained by constant misunderstandings, so the concept is more sound.

Finally, there are promising details which give me reason for hope: First, the mangaka confirmed that he had 5 possible ending points laid out for the story, so it is not endless by design. Second, he clearly listens and responds to fan feedback. Third, he confirmed that some characters (he listed Hina and Maria) are "in the strike zone", so he does at least consider a non-canonic ending. What's not to like?

This type of rom-com really struggles when it takes any half-way choices. If it wants to have substance, then it should go the Toradora route and only use comedy with sparse effectiveness. If it wants to be light, pointless entertainment, then its first season is a reasonable model, ie, ten different types of comedy before it even contemplates dealing with characters and relationships. Because the middle path has been followed often before, and the result is generally failure, eg, School Rumble.

Here I have to disagree: Who says that the middle ground can't work? It all depends on the willingness and ability of the author to lead things to a proper conclusion - THIS is the real task. I don't see School Rumble's failure as evidence that the whole approach can't work, it's the particular failure of this single show.

A simple counter-example would be Midori no Hibi. Here we also have a _real_ crazy setting (hard to take the outer story "seriously"), but the charm of the show was the romantic triangle Midori-Seiji-Takako. It worked just fine and had a proper conclusion (though not the one I'd have hoped for). In my eyes, a perfectly successful example of "crazy frame story" with "serious character/romance development".

Synergy got this. I'm not sure J.C. Staff has. I get the feeling J.C. Staff is compromising this anime for the sake of appeasing manga fans, and the result is a tepid, toothless brand of comedy with no bite.

Very subjective, so it's hard to argue with this. I'll only point out that most other feedback I've seen here and on other boards indicated that the "old" style with references, breaking the 4th wall and others was received very well. But okay. You don't like it (a sentence I should put on an F key).

You can add all the substance you want, but at this stage comedy still dominates this show, and I can't see how it speaks to any more a mature audience than the first season.

Because finally we'll be able to see character DEVELOPMENT which is based on a logical sequence of events. Here it would be helpful to know if you know the manga or not. Because if not, I can understand why you might not be able to see it yet - after all, you have only seen 3 episodes so far. But I will base my response on what _will_ come.

Season 1 stayed mostly true to the original storyline till around episode 19, then it went "off the rail". It purposely avoided any storylines with lasting developments. Instead, we got over 30 episodes in sequence which had NOTHING to do with each other. They could have randomized the sequence (in fact, they did), and it wouldn't have changed anything. The characters remained whatever they were, all the time. And naturally, they were pretty shallow and flat.

Take Ayumu for example. In S1, her character stagnated as a cute little girl continuously stuffing her face, having a crush on Hayate and a strange rivalry-friendship with Nagi. THAT WAS IT.

Manga readers however will know: The "real" Ayumu is much more complex. It just started in S2/ep04, with the Valentine Day arc. Over the course of the next seasons, she will grow so much, a little bit in her relationship with Hayate, but oh so much in her relationship with Hina. We'll see many endearing sides of her which we could never see, because the randomness and "serious development" block of S1 censored it.

THIS is why so many fans of the original story were livid by the end of S2. I couldn't stand the retarded fluff anymore. Random craziness is fine, but in moderation - not 36 episodes of fillers in sequence. We wanted to get the "real" characters as we knew them, not stunted caricatures of them. And _praise the lord_ J.C.Staff is now finally starting to do just that.

[...]But it also highlights the fact that these are, essentially, gag characters, and there's very little to them past their initial two or three character traits/jokes. How do you make "substance" out of that? How do you get the audience to take that substance seriously?

You're confirming exactly what I've been saying. The characters themselves from S1 remained crippled and shallow, but that's NOT how it had to be. That's not how the original story is. Thankfully we're finally getting to it - and THAT is the substance I was talking about.

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by Mentar

There's one thing I'd like to know first: Do you actually know the original source, the manga? If so, up to which chapter?

None. I don't find it necessary to judge an anime on its loyalty to a source. An anime really should be able to stand on its own two feet.

Originally Posted by Mentar

What I am taking seriously is the character development. We have a selection of characters (mostly girls) who develop feelings for others (mostly Hayate). I find it very interesting and appealing to see these developments - which are very nonlinear in several cases - unfold, based on various things and revelations which happen in the "frame story". And for that, I don't need to take the frame story in itself "seriously". How could anyone do that?

Yeah, but it still demands a transition between a light, frivilous mood in the wacky hijinks type scenes to something more solemn which suitably emphasizes importance and lasting development in the more serious type scenes. That type of transition requires a really deft hand as far as direction is concerned, and I have my doubts that the people involved in this series are capable of making that transition on a regular basis without making it feel jarring.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Agreed. Toradora is less a comedy and more tuned to the romance aspect, so it's no good comparison. School Rumble comes closer from the type, but I give Hayate much higher marks in the character development department. SR was almost 90% built up on the concept of "misunderstandings", and the mangaka took particular pleasure in intentionally p*ssing on the expectations and hopes of the fans (which is why I vowed never to pay any money whatsoever for any of his products anymore, and skipped his newer works entirely). In Hayate, the developments are more genuine and not constrained by constant misunderstandings, so the concept is more sound.

I daresay that there have been quite a lot of misunderstandings to date in this show. It is an incredibly annoying plot/reset device. The more they use it, the harder it is to stay engaged with what the show is trying to do with its characters. That's what went woefully wrong with School Rumble.

I still think that School Rumble had really good characters. When Kobayashi actually wanted to add depth to his characters, he was able to do so quite well and make them strong and sympathetic as well. The problem was that the plot and pacing were awful, and the endless resets made it clear that the number one priority was needlessly stalling and prolonging the story to sell more manga chapters. On what I've seen, I really don't think Hayate no Gotoku has characters with the same level of depth as School Rumble, which is why I'm skeptical that it can succeed where School Rumble spectacularly failed.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Here I have to disagree: Who says that the middle ground can't work? It all depends on the willingness and ability of the author to lead things to a proper conclusion - THIS is the real task. I don't see School Rumble's failure as evidence that the whole approach can't work, it's the particular failure of this single show.

A simple counter-example would be Midori no Hibi. Here we also have a _real_ crazy setting (hard to take the outer story "seriously"), but the charm of the show was the romantic triangle Midori-Seiji-Takako. It worked just fine and had a proper conclusion (though not the one I'd have hoped for). In my eyes, a perfectly successful example of "crazy frame story" with "serious character/romance development".

Good call. I'll pay that.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Very subjective, so it's hard to argue with this. I'll only point out that most other feedback I've seen here and on other boards indicated that the "old" style with references, breaking the 4th wall and others was received very well. But okay. You don't like it (a sentence I should put on an F key).

Actually, if by "old" style, we're talking about the first season, I did like that. The references, parodies and self-aware stuff almost defined the first season's sense of humour, and were a big reason why I thought it had a very good strike rate with its comedy. It's been done better elsewhere (Ouran High School, for example, and even Kannagi), but Hayate no Gotoku did it pretty damn good too.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Because finally we'll be able to see character DEVELOPMENT which is based on a logical sequence of events. Here it would be helpful to know if you know the manga or not. Because if not, I can understand why you might not be able to see it yet - after all, you have only seen 3 episodes so far. But I will base my response on what _will_ come.

Yeah, but that involves speculation, and my question isn't so much about the manga as it is about J.C. Staff being able to put together an anime that doesn't feel cobbled together or compromised. Even if the manga manages on succeeding at drawing together an off-the-wall comedy with a momentous and charming romance alongside it, pulling something like that off requires a lot of care and really good execution. Can J.C. Staff do it? Who knows, but on what I've seen so far, I'm rather pessimistic.

Originally Posted by Mentar

You're confirming exactly what I've been saying. The characters themselves from S1 remained crippled and shallow, but that's NOT how it had to be. That's not how the original story is. Thankfully we're finally getting to it - and THAT is the substance I was talking about.

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were talking about School Rumble, not Hayate no Gotoku. Again, I can only go on what I've seen, but the characters and their respective gags worked so well in the first season that it's hard not to come to the conclusion that they were designed for comedy and little more.

If you kinda assume that anything plot-related in the first season was superfluous (and conveniently ignore the fact that it was based on a manga), then it was a self-consistent work. Now it's kinda like J.C. Staff has gone "oh, you know those characters from the first season that you laughed so hard at for fifty-two episodes and couldn't take seriously in the least... well, you're supposed to take them seriously now. Oh, and you know that enjoyable humour-style that Synergy executed so well... we're flushing that." So now what are we left with? A generic rom-com that's had its soul ripped out? The upcoming romantic and character advances had better be good if they justify the removal of a winning comedy formula. (Granted, that comedy formula was starting to get a bit tiresome towards the end, but it was still delivering laughs occasionally enough).

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

None. I don't find it necessary to judge an anime on its loyalty to a source. An anime really should be able to stand on its own two feet.

Okay, this kinda confirms what I was suspecting. For you, Hayate no Gotoku is the essence of S1. For me, it's not - Hayate no Gotoku is the original manga. And here, S1 was no satisfactory conversion.

Yeah, but it still demands a transition between a light, frivilous mood in the wacky hijinks type scenes to something more solemn which suitably emphasizes importance and lasting development in the more serious type scenes. That type of transition requires a really deft hand as far as direction is concerned, and I have my doubts that the people involved in this series are capable of making that transition on a regular basis without making it feel jarring.

I see no reason why this would be problematic. There is no hard drama going on here, so that you'd be thrown from laughing to tears. It's rather more subtle. Like having a quiet and slightly downcast Hina walking home unsuccessfully trying to convince herself that what she did was the right thing (ep4). And there, shifting gears was really no problem. We're not jumping from Furi Kuri to Saikano here.

I still think that School Rumble had really good characters. When Kobayashi actually wanted to add depth to his characters, he was able to do so quite well and make them strong and sympathetic as well. The problem was that the plot and pacing were awful, and the endless resets made it clear that the number one priority was needlessly stalling and prolonging the story to sell more manga chapters.

Agreed. But if you hate resets, how can you like S1, which was all-filler reset-only?

If you kinda assume that anything plot-related in the first season was superfluous (and conveniently ignore the fact that it was based on a manga), then it was a self-consistent work.

Up to ep19 it was following the main storyline fairly closely. Then it entirely _ignored_ the main storyline and went in all-fillers mode. And this second part was like eating baisers - it's tasty for a while, and then it turns shallow. ESPECIALLY if you're desperately waiting for the "real story to begin".

Now it's kinda like J.C. Staff has gone "oh, you know those characters from the first season that you laughed so hard at for fifty-two episodes and couldn't take seriously in the least... well, you're supposed to take them seriously now. Oh, and you know that enjoyable humour-style that Synergy executed so well... we're flushing that."

No. J.C.Staff is animating the original Hayate. What you have gotten used to is a caricature of the original. And sorry, if you enjoyed laughing at trivial characters in pointless random settings, more power to you. Heck, even YOU admit that things got repetitive in the end. You seem to have forgotten that manga fans were literally seething at the end?

What J.C.Staff is doing now is getting the show back on track, just where Synergy left it. I don't want more Hayate baisers. I want the meat. And finally I'm getting it

[Sorrow-K]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I see no reason why this would be problematic. There is no hard drama going on here, so that you'd be thrown from laughing to tears. It's rather more subtle. Like having a quiet and slightly downcast Hina walking home unsuccessfully trying to convince herself that what she did was the right thing (ep4). And there, shifting gears was really no problem. We're not jumping from Furi Kuri to Saikano here.

Probably not, but we're going from Furi Kuri (well, maybe not quite that extreme, but the comedy's still fairly off-the-wall) to something, and even that's not going to be easy to pull off convincingly. And, based on what I've seen so far, I don't think J.C. Staff is up to the challenge.

Originally Posted by Mentar

Agreed. But if you hate resets, how can you like S1, which was all-filler reset-only?

Because by about ten episodes it became clear that Hayate no Gotoku was completely a comedy and not a romance, and that the romance elements were just there as a gag. So I had no expectations for plot progress, and it didn't bother me just how many resets they pulled, as long as the jokes kept flying and stayed funny. I realized expectations for plot progress were unreasonable for an anime like this (School Rumble taught me that lesson).

Originally Posted by Mentar

No. J.C.Staff is animating the original Hayate. What you have gotten used to is a caricature of the original. And sorry, if you enjoyed laughing at trivial characters in pointless random settings, more power to you. Heck, even YOU admit that things got repetitive in the end. You seem to have forgotten that manga fans were literally seething at the end?

What J.C.Staff is doing now is getting the show back on track, just where Synergy left it. I don't want more Hayate baisers. I want the meat. And finally I'm getting it

Well, I wasn't really paying attention to what manga fans were saying, since they tend to seethe at most things. Momentarily following a random tangent, source loyalists are weird people, IMO. They tend to jump up and down about the script being loyal but seem to completely disregard execution. They'll give high praise to really poorly executed anime because they followed the source line-for-line and go irate over well executed anime just because they've taken some minor liberties with the source. Sometimes I see it as pointless to have a discussion with a fervent source loyalist because you can't get a reasoned argument out of them. They don't understand the concept of anime standing on its own feet. Or that the source isn't some sort of holy parchment. And some source materials just don't translate well to anime anyway (one of the reasons why I hope they never make a Ever 17 anime, despite it being one of my favourite visual novels).

As far as Hayate no Gotoku is concerned, it's incredibly rare for me to still find a comedy funny at the end of its run, so for Hayate no Gotoku to still be making me laugh after fifty-two eps was a minor miracle, IMO. Of course it was getting a little tiresome, but almost universally comedy is funnier towards the beginning than it is towards the end. I see it as some sort of benchmark for an anime comedy to still be funny right up until its final episode. Most aren't. Hayate no Gotoku was, even if it wasn't anywhere near as good as when it started. So what made it such a success as a comedy? Well, I've tried to explain, but comedy is the most subjective genre in anime, so maybe other people won't see it, particularly if plain old-fashioned jokes-by-the-dozen humour wasn't within your expectations. Hayate no Gotoku executed that style of comedy better than most other similar anime that I've seen.

[Fandal]

I think one of the problems is Hayate S1 fulfilled a missing arc in anime - the Simpsons/Futurama/King of the Hill/Etc style gag episodes where each episode is it's own thing. It's the approach where nobody grows and Bart & Lisa are in the same grade for hundreds of episodes and holidays they have been in. This is more common on US TV but rarely found in Anime (well, the ones that people talk about here - it probably exist but I haven't heard much about it).

Hayate S2 fulfills a more traditional manga + plot storyline + growing timeline approach more common in Anime. In a way, it's like a really long movie that last several episodes. I like it because the source manga is fun, but in a way, it lets down the fans who enjoyed the S1 approach of independent episodes.

They should have never done S1 the way they did it. However, since they did. If I had money, budget, etc...I probably would have 2 arc's - one spin off to the manga version and one which main purpose is to parody other stuff.

[chaosprophet]

Originally Posted by Sorrow-K

None. I don't find it necessary to judge an anime on its loyalty to a source. An anime really should be able to stand on its own two feet.

I think the more important part here is not that you would need to read the manga to understand the Anime. It can stand in its own two feet. But it's following the manga very well atm and If we trust JC Staff to continue to make a loyal adaptation then to know the manga is as if you knew spoilers to the anime. And the manga took itself serious so if you had read it you would now if the current setup they're building (the same that happened in the manga) would work for you. As it's not the case then you can only wait and see. Just know that it did work to many people as it's a manga that have a nice amount of popularity so the chance of it working for you aren't remote. My advice try to watch some more eps before you think of dropping it. Well let's hope you have a good ride. I'm having.

[Guido]

Spoiler for For people who missed last week's episode:

While episode 52 of the first Hayate no Gotoku TV show season was a side-story of sorts, it's imperative to have watched it in order to understand the flashback presented in this episode.

1. Obey your magic conch shell and sit with you doing literally nothing, as the poison course through your veins.

References.
Dragon Ball Z.
Fate stay/Night
Any stuff related to RPG games whatever.....

[SeedFreedom]

That was absolutely an amazing episode.

First, imagine how fast Hayate would have finished with Isumi and Hina in his party from the beginning. And Hina was wicked and hot with the new blade. Revenge hina <3

Second love the chibi Isumi. So cute. Felt sad when i heard about her wanting Hayate as a hero, but i still cheer Hina above all. Hand Soap lol.

Third, love the parodies. First was Majin Buu, then Archer.