Gundam Build Divers - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[Wandering Soul]

I was sure that at Riku would manage to come up with a way to win and continue his undefeated streak, so I was pleasantly surprised by what happened.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

This is the first Riku's official loss that we need but not quite deserve. Why? Because, at the end of the day, Riku still lost to his master, not his peers, unlike what happened to the MCs of GBF & GBFT. To me, the result of this battle is more like "Well, duh!" instead of "OMG, he actually lost?!". It's like having mid-show Reiji fight Chinan or Ramba when both of them are totally serious. Of course Reiji would've lost right there and then against masters.
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Does Riku even really have any rivals that aren't like masters to him? The only one that comes to mind Ogre, but most of the people Riku is being set up to set surpass are already top players

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

That's certainly not how it works. You can't upgrade MS infinetely. at some point not without major reconstruction at least. Getting new techniques is even more difficult and time consuming. Newbies who that start with zero have much easier time to improve then veterans who already reached peak perfomence for both themself and their MS.

So that's arguing the point 2 of my previous post. My point 1 & 3 still stand though. Also, the requirement of making a finishing move is quite vague in this show (especially for high-rank players) to the point where debating about what they can and cannot do will only end with speculation-throwing. So, I might as well stop here.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

I wouldn't be even surprised if Tiger got defeated on that Raid now as introduction for new enemy/rival, because of revealing his cards without enough time to get create new ones.

Given the writing of the show, that might as well happen later.

[Tenzen12]

At this point only other top10 characters would be able get Tiger reveal his tricks. And it could be months when that happened last time.

As for point 3. Even if cooperation is (arguably) most important part there is no point of it if you neglect other aspects. Especially as some team tactics and formations can be centered around single person special skill(s). If anything Riku whole involvement in that conversation was unspoken assumption that he is strong enough for Tiger having no choice but reveal his cards in duel, which would be directly opposite how you interpreted that conversation.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

At this point only other top10 characters would be able get Tiger reveal his tricks. And it could be months when that happened last time.

As for point 3. Even if cooperation is (arguably) most important part there is no point of it if you neglect other aspects. Especially as some team tactics and formations can be centered around single person special skill(s).

In this case, only one aspect is exposed which should not ruin Tiger's guild raid if they do it right.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

If anything Riku whole involvement in that conversation was unspoken assumption that he is strong enough for Tiger having no choice but reveal his cards in duel, which would be directly opposite how you interpreted that conversation.

Nah, Riku is still closely below Tiger during the conversation and both Tiger & Shah knew it, but Tiger simply craved the fight where he can go all out. And of course, Riku conveniently made his special move at the end of the duel (and yet, Tiger was still left standing and even able to move around and threw Sky after receiving the brunt of the hisatsu).

[Desruprot]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Finally we get to see Riku's definite loss. It's long overdue.

I'm kinda mixed about it though. On one hand, Riku did eventually overpower Tigerwolf in the match, but they didn't overdo Riku's OP-ness by making his mech unable to handle the output while Tigerwolf is still able to stand. But at the end of the day, I'm generally okay with it.

This is the first Riku's official loss that we need but not quite deserve. Why? Because, at the end of the day, Riku still lost to his master, not his peers, unlike what happened to the MCs of GBF & GBFT. To me, the result of this battle is more like "Well, duh!" instead of "OMG, he actually lost?!". It's like having mid-show Reiji fight Chinan or Ramba when both of them are totally serious. Of course Reiji would've lost right there and then against masters.

And speaking of Tigerwolf, some of the comments from the characters are right about him. Tigerwolf can be rather childish. He's impatient to fight Riku to the point where he challenged him when he is still ranked 10. For all the boast that Tigerwolf spout about wanting to challenge stronger opponents, he pretty much did the opposite this episode by challenging Riku which is several ranks below him .

Other than that, nice fights. I still see some cutting-corners but the battle and animation are overall pretty good.

I completely agree with this.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Oh yeah, forgot to reply this:

Originally Posted by Wandering Soul

Does Riku even really have any rivals that aren't like masters to him? The only one that comes to mind Ogre, but most of the people Riku is being set up to set surpass are already top players

I think this is also one of the problems in GBD: lack of peers for Riku to compete against. Ogre is okay, but he has such a lack of screentime that he feels like an afterthought at this point. Also, I feel the second battle between Ogre & Riku is pointless when it comes to the bigger picture (so far).

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

In this case, only one aspect is exposed which should not ruin Tiger's guild raid if they do it right.

Nah, Riku is still closely below Tiger during the conversation and both Tiger & Shah knew it, but Tiger simply craved the fight where he can go all out. And of course, Riku conveniently made his special move at the end of the duel (and yet, Tiger was still left standing and even able to move around and threw Sky after receiving the brunt of the hisatsu).

One aspect is more then enough to be cause of fall if opponent is skilled and smart enough. You can't show your secret moves and not expected to be exploited. Only thing that can be done right is NOT show your hands to your enemies.

Again whether Riku is below or not was not object of converstation. He was aknowledged as worthy enemy and that's all to it. Neither Syahriar nor Tiger implied anything else.

[B214]

Well it felt as though Tiger chose Riku to fight him is to make him improve before the raid battle. During the start of the match he tried to point out Riku's supposed weakness. Then he reveals to Riku who isn't aware that finishers have variation allowing Riku to unlock his.

[Tenzen12]

Yep, that's certainly part of it.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

One aspect is more then enough to be cause of fall if opponent is skilled and smart enough. You can't show your secret moves and not expected to be exploited. Only thing that can be done right is NOT show your hands to your enemies.

Which is also part of the plot holes in the narrative. If Tiger's a veteran that's already lost countless times to Magee in official duels before this, logic dictates that people (those who want to know) already knew all about Tiger's special moves which he used against Magee and failed again and again. So, why Shah suddenly said that revealing his hisatsu is a concern now? Also, Shah already knew about Tiger's Raijin Thunder before Tiger "revealed" it this episode by saying something akin to "Riku's in for a surprise" during the fight right before it happened. Please note that Shah and his squad is one of Tiger's biggest rivals. So, if Shah already knew the hisatsu, what's even the point in hiding it? Shah's squad will screw Tiger's squad eventually anyway (if the hisatsu is such a key to the Raid battle). Also, what about other contestants in this tournament? Certainly a number of them will partake in the Raid battles too. If revealing their moves before the Raid battle is such a great mistake, only small fries would show up in this tournament but that's not the case here coz we saw that Patrick (who is one of the elite Squad leaders invited by Champ in previous cour) also took part in it. Add to that the vague-ness of how one can make a hisatsu and you got yourself a not-so-solid writing. The more you look into it, the more holes appear and the more unworthy and useless this topic and argument becomes because the writer don't even care about the details.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Again whether Riku is below or not was not object of converstation. He was aknowledged as worthy enemy and that's all to it. Neither Syahriar nor Tiger implied anything else.

Well, nobody's stopping you if you wanna believe that. Next.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by B214

Well it felt as though Tiger chose Riku to fight him is to make him improve before the raid battle. During the start of the match he tried to point out Riku's supposed weakness. Then he reveals to Riku who isn't aware that finishers have variation allowing Riku to unlock his.

That much is obvious though. After all, Tiger is Riku's master. Generally, masters always want to see their dear students develop, improve and surpass them.

[Skaddix]

Yes I to question the need for special moves to be hidden in a professional sports environment that doesn't seem to be a real need. Anyone you fight as a Pro should know your special movie unless you just created a new one. Really at the Pro level it seems like it be more important to pull of combos to make your special move(s) as likely as possible to hit or bait reactions to your special movie to weaken and mindgame your foes before using it.

Basically I look at it like a Fighting Game you know the moves and your opponent knows the moves.

[Tenzen12]

To be fair that ultimate move variation Tiger used on Rikku seemed to be completely new

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Which is also part of the plot holes in the narrative. If Tiger's a veteran that's already lost countless times to Magee in official duels before this, logic dictates that people (those who want to know) already knew all about Tiger's special moves which he used against Magee and failed again and again. So, why Shah suddenly said that revealing his hisatsu is a concern now? Also, Shah already knew about Tiger's Raijin Thunder before Tiger "revealed" it this episode by saying something akin to "Riku's in for a surprise" during the fight right before it happened. Please note that Shah and his squad is one of Tiger's biggest rivals. So, if Shah already knew the hisatsu, what's even the point in hiding it? Shah's squad will screw Tiger's squad eventually anyway (if the hisatsu is such a key to the Raid battle). Also, what about other contestants in this tournament? Certainly a number of them will partake in the Raid battles too. If revealing their moves before the Raid battle is such a great mistake, only small fries would show up in this tournament but that's not the case here coz we saw that Patrick (who is one of the elite Squad leaders invited by Champ in previous cour) also took part in it. Add to that the vague-ness of how one can make a hisatsu and you got yourself a not-so-solid writing. The more you look into it, the more holes appear and the more unworthy and useless this topic and argument becomes because the writer don't even care about the details.

Well, nobody's stopping you if you wanna believe that. Next.

We don't really argue whether it has plot holes or not (I don't think this is one though), do we? Syahriar expressed concern of showing hand before raid. Rommel proved that concern perfectly valid few minutes later.

So again why would you think Syahriar stating soon after proven truth was actually secret code for something else and if there was something like that how do you know that " don't show your hands before raid (To eager Weasel with camera)" means "Riku is weak" and not for example "I like pancakes"?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

To be fair that ultimate move variation Tiger used on Rikku seemed to be completely new

No characters said anything about it being completely new. So, no conclusion on that yet.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

We don't really argue whether it has plot holes or not (I don't think this is one though), do we? Syahriar expressed concern of showing hand before raid. Rommel proved that concern perfectly valid few minutes later.

Shah's concern and Rommel's spying themselves are logic lapses in the story. Thus, I don't think it's worth debating. You may continue to talk about this if you like. I just call it silly.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

So again why would you think Syahriar stating soon after proven truth was actually secret code for something else and if there was something like that how do you know that " don't show your hands before raid (To eager Weasel with camera)" means "Riku is weak" and not for example "I like pancakes"?

Because Riku is very relevant to their conversation coz it's him that caused Tiger to want to fight in the tournament. How can you even put Riku on equal terms with liking cake during the conversation is beyond me.

EDIT: Btw, can't you just let go? You already said your disagreement with me, and I already said to "agree to disagree" but you came back at me when I only talked to Kanon in the previous page and started the whole thing all over again.

[alex_drian]

I don't so much of the whole Gundam out of the Build Series, but I would like for once the MC having one of the evil variations of a Gundam, and being able to pull things like the Nitro System or whatever, that was pretty.