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Old 2010-01-07, 13:47   Link #5161
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Ah... I see. Then, did we get a detective for EP6? We had one for EPs 1-5, and since Battler tried to follow Beato's style, there should have been one, no?
I'm not sure, but I think Bern is in charge of who becomes the detective. It was a rule only made in the answer arcs and Bern obviously has some control over how the game goes. It may be that the "detective" rule was created in EP5 but applied retroactively because Battler's perspective never lied.
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Old 2010-01-07, 14:35   Link #5162
rogerpepitone
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re Genji's vison: In episode 1, he doesn't notice there's anything unusual about Natsuhi's door until she points it out to him. In the anime & manga, there were handprints all over it. There's no way he could have missed that unless he had some sort of vision problem

At the red paint scenes (Jessica's room & Natsuhi's room ep. 2, possibly in Gohda's notebook), is Genji ever the first person to notice or describe it? (Garden storehouse in ep. 1 and chapel in ep. 2 may not count; red paint is against something else.)
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Old 2010-01-07, 14:57   Link #5163
Raiza Sunozaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I'm not sure, but I think Bern is in charge of who becomes the detective. It was a rule only made in the answer arcs and Bern obviously has some control over how the game goes. It may be that the "detective" rule was created in EP5 but applied retroactively because Battler's perspective never lied.
Ah, this helps me with one somewhat pointless question I've had since Episode 1. What was the "help" Bern said she give the unshown person in the Ura-Tea Party? I took the unknown person to be Battler, and if it was, then what you said makes it make sense now. Bern gave Piece-Battler the detective's authority, even though he didn't know about it, which is why he didn't use it like Erika did (though in my opinion, she abuses it).
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Old 2010-01-07, 15:03   Link #5164
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
re Genji's vison: In episode 1, he doesn't notice there's anything unusual about Natsuhi's door until she points it out to him. In the anime & manga, there were handprints all over it. There's no way he could have missed that unless he had some sort of vision problem

At the red paint scenes (Jessica's room & Natsuhi's room ep. 2, possibly in Gohda's notebook), is Genji ever the first person to notice or describe it? (Garden storehouse in ep. 1 and chapel in ep. 2 may not count; red paint is against something else.)
Gohda's notebook shouldn't count either, as that circle was all over the kitchen, which is steel and white.
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Old 2010-01-07, 15:18   Link #5165
Arkwright
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
re Genji's vison: In episode 1, he doesn't notice there's anything unusual about Natsuhi's door until she points it out to him.
Didn't he say he had seen it already? Or do you mean that he played along and inspected it later?

Also when he sees the magic circle on the shed, he mentions having seen a similar "scribble" on the door to Natsuhi's room with the same kind of red paint.
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Old 2010-01-07, 15:31   Link #5166
Dlanor .A. Nox
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I kept thinking about Eva's final attack that web, and Beatrice's final riddle. I think I can solve it. I had a lot of time to think about it since I got some time with the VN.
Episode 3 was absolutely critical in it, it's a claim against the Red Truth, also it has to do with the trap in the 5th game. I also have a hint as to what Battler's sin is. Of course I may be wrong, but then again losing is part of the excitement for me. Here it goes.

Spoiler for Eva's Red Web:


Spoiler for Beatrice's Final Mystery:


Spoiler for The Trap:


Spoiler for Beatrice of 1967:


Spoiler for Against the Red:


Spoiler for Battler's Sin:


Spoiler for The true culprit:


Spoiler for My reasoning.:
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Old 2010-01-07, 15:44   Link #5167
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
It was declared in Red that there were 18 people before the revelation of Kinzo's death.
"No more than".

"No more than 18 people." And then, after Kinzo is declared dead, it's "No more than 17".

The red never changed. The whole trick with that wording is that it doesn't actually specify a number, just the highest possible limit. Futhermore, dead people most probably still count towards the limit as long they have died DURING the game.

There is no Unknown Person X. There cannot be an Unknown Person X. It's like magic. It's cheating.

There are no more than 18 people on Rokkenjima.
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Old 2010-01-07, 15:45   Link #5168
chronotrig
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@Dlanor .A. Nox:
Umm, there's a much easier explanation for that scene...in fact, the one Battler uses doesn't violate the red truth. It is never stated in red that all those people were dead at the time of Nanjo's murder. It was just stated that they were all dead at some point after Nanjo's murder.

To use my Shkanontrice/Nanjo theory, let's say Nanjo failed to fully kill Kyrie (but mortally wounds her). Then Kyrie gets a hold of a gun, sees that Nanjo is about to murder Jessica, and kills Nanjo. Kyrie then dies from her wounds or gets shot again. After that, Lambda uses the red text to declare Kyrie's death.
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Old 2010-01-07, 15:57   Link #5169
Dlanor .A. Nox
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Kaisos:
I'm claiming the Red is true regardless of the wording, there is no wordplay here. Beatrice's dead or alive status is unknown. Because of that I'm saying two truths can exist regardless of wordplay of any kind. Arguing limits is kind of pointless since I'm claiming as a whole the reds claiming the entire population of the island can be true and false. Kinzo's red was just a way of making my point clearer, it's not an actual peg in my theory.

Chronotrig:
I can't deny that possibility either, but you can interpret red in different ways, I can say Eva used that red in the context of that exact time or something like that but it would be pointless so I won't argue that point, anyways if Kyrie or someone else died their body would have been near Nanjo's body or in the hall or something like that. Of course if your saying that person moved away from the room and died then that could work as well.

Last edited by Dlanor .A. Nox; 2010-01-07 at 16:11.
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Old 2010-01-07, 15:58   Link #5170
Used Can
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As for Beatrice's final mystery, I don't think you need confirmation about her status when you're told:

- And right now, there is no one other than you on this island.
- The only one alive on this island is you.
- Nothing outside the island can interfere.
- You are all alone on this island.
- And of course, I am not you.
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Old 2010-01-07, 16:09   Link #5171
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
I'm claiming the Red is true regardless of the wording, there is no wordplay here.
Refusing to state the exact number of individuals on the island while implying at the same time through tricky wording that you did just confirm the exact number certainly sounds like wordplay to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
Arguing limits is kind of pointless since I'm claiming as a whole the reds claiming the entire population of the island can be true and false.
Actually, something similar to this shows up in Ep6, from what I've read of the spoilers.

Not the point though, as what you're saying really just boils down to the Unknown Person X theory, and like I keep saying, that's cheating. The mystery is useless and nonexistent if you bring Unknown Person X into it, as the whole damn point of the story is that Battler has to realize that his relatives and friends are not the kind of people he thought they were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
As for Beatrice's final mystery, I don't think you need confirmation about her status when you're told:

- And right now, there is no one other than you on this island.
- The only one alive on this island is you.
- Nothing outside the island can interfere.
- You are all alone on this island.
- And of course, I am not you.
BOOM!
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Old 2010-01-07, 16:26   Link #5172
Dlanor .A. Nox
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Kaisos:
Beatrice was introduced at the start of the story, her existence was hinted at in the beginning. There is no Person X there is Beatrice. Someone introduced that can be dead.

Your not getting my point, I'm saying it's true and at the same time it's not. As long as Beatrice's true life or death status is not known it can be that way.

As for your deathblow. I maintain the stance that regarding Red Truths that have to do with the true number of people, can be both true or false, it can be this way as long as Beatrice's true status is not known, Battler was alone at the time but at the same time Beatrice was also there alive and well.

In essence I'm attacking the red itself, Poisoning the Well, my claim is that as long as Beatrice's true status is not known two sets of reasoning can be established as true. All along people have been going along with the fact that there are no more than 18 people or whatever. This can be stopped by claiming Beatrice is dead or alive.
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Old 2010-01-07, 16:34   Link #5173
chronotrig
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@Dlanor .A. Nox:

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that you can say something false with the red truth as long as you don't know it's wrong?

Also, about my theory, there's no need for Kyrie to leave the hall outside the servant room. It's never stated that Battler or Eva ever walked through that corridor again.
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Old 2010-01-07, 16:38   Link #5174
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
Kaisos:
Beatrice was introduced at the start of the story, her existence was hinted at in the beginning. There is no Person X there is Beatrice. Someone introduced that can be dead.
Blaming the witch of the portrait for the death of Battler's family is the same as giving in to magic, is what I'm saying.

Certainly, it's possible by certain readings of the red, but that doesn't mean it's probable or in the spirit of the story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
As for your deathblow. I maintain the stance that regarding Red Truths that have to do with the true number of people, can be both true or false, it can be this way as long as Beatrice's true status is not known, Battler was alone at the time but at the same time Beatrice was also there alive and well.

In essence I'm attacking the red itself, Poisoning the Well, my claim is that as long as Beatrice's true status is not known two sets of reasoning can be established as true. All along people have been going along with the fact that there are no more than 18 people or whatever. This can be stopped by claiming Beatrice is dead or alive.
So you're arguing that the red truth is wrong for the purposes of confirming your theory.

I'm not saying that your theory is impossible, mind. Just saying that I see it as needlessly overcomplicated.

I mean, what's the point of trying to twist the red to prove that Beatrice is still alive and killing everyone, besides ruining the mystery?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that you can say something false with the red truth as long as you don't know it's wrong?
He's using the Schrodinger thing. He's saying that two opposing truths are both true at the same time, thus allowing both of them to be said in red.
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Old 2010-01-07, 16:43   Link #5175
Dlanor .A. Nox
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Chronotrig:
It's true as long as no actual confirmation of Beatrice's status is given. It's wholly true it has a 50% chance of being false as well as being true the same goes to me, by doing this I have a noose around my neck as well, since my blue has the same odds.


But they found Nanjo's corpse right how did they find that again? It should be that Nanjo and Kyrie died near the same general area I think...of course I might be misunderstanding your point as well.

Kaisos:
It's not the witch of the portrait it's Beatrice hiding behind the witch's guise. What was the point of the Beato twin's discussion about making the servants slowly believe. That is another part of it that made me more more affirmed.

It's the main culprit the mastermind of the story, of course it's not something that can easily be explained. So of course I'm not expecting much joy or agreement for my theory. No one is the judge of Ryuukishi's story but Ryuukishi himself, so to claim the soul and the main point of the story is just trying to appeal to your argument. I said time and time again the truth is the truth, it can be for some people that cauliflower tastes like crap or fish tastes gross. It's truth for me but for alot of people it's the truth that fish tastes good. Two points of truth can be maintained, Ange's discussion with the stakes really helped me as well. Even Maria's red look at it, her story was true even if it was false to Erika.

Was anything about Beatrice's game simple? nothing was, Beatrice even twisted the red to assume Battler wasn't even allowed to play anymore.
She used red to show that Battler wasn't worthy of playing the game. Because of that I don't find any reason to hold back.
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Last edited by Dlanor .A. Nox; 2010-01-07 at 17:00.
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Old 2010-01-07, 16:46   Link #5176
Tyabann
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
But they found Nanjo's corpse right how did they find that again? It should be that Nanjo and Kyrie died near the same general area I think...of course I might be misunderstanding your point as well.
Actually, I may be misremembering, but I don't think Battler ever saw Nanjo's corpse. Eva might have, though.
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Old 2010-01-07, 16:52   Link #5177
chronotrig
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It's never confirmed that Battler sees Nanjo's corpse, but Dlanor does have a point here. If my theory about Battler "witnessing" all scenes first- or secondhand is true, then Eva probably confessed that she murdered Nanjo with magic after seeing his corpse.

However, it never says that they didn't see Kyrie's corpse. Since she was already dead, Battler or Eva might have just thought someone moved it. Also, Kyrie was capable of moving after being mortally wounded (or she couldn't have killed Nanjo), so it's possible she crawled away.
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Old 2010-01-07, 16:59   Link #5178
DarknessLord
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I thought Beatrice's status WAS confirmed
In 1967, in a hidden mansion on Rokkenjima, Beatrice-sama existed as a human
She [human Beato] is definitely dead
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Old 2010-01-07, 17:09   Link #5179
Dlanor .A. Nox
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Darkness
Nope that doesn't work, she only stated in red those two sentences minus your [human Beato] line. The main point is that Beatrice said "SHE" not "I" I already claimed two Beatos might exist 67 and 86, Beatrice's name can be passed down as we seen multiple times.

Chronotrig
It's hard to see Kyrie living long after receiving a fatal wound, Eva stated in Red someone looked into Nanjo's eyes on two feet and murdered him point blank. If Kyrie was fatally wounded in the stomach then it would be really hard for Kyrie to stand on two feet.
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Old 2010-01-07, 17:12   Link #5180
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox View Post
Chronotrig
It's hard to see Kyrie living long after receiving a fatal wound, Eva stated in Red someone looked into Nanjo's eyes on two feet and murdered him point blank. If Kyrie was fatally wounded in the stomach then it would be really hard for Kyrie to stand on two feet.
If you don't like that one, just say Nanjo shot her again like I've suggested.
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