Island War [Manga]

[Shiek927]

You guys are right - silly me was thinking of driving when I said it's only a few days from one end of the US to the other

A small country like Portugal sounds about right

[Ryus]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

You guys are right - silly me was thinking of driving when I said it's only a few days from one end of the US to the other

A small country like Portugal sounds about right

What, you can't clear the US in 3 days? Well, your still human so I won't hold it against you.

[Awakened]

If you know the general area where Clare conducted most of her missions, it might give you an idea of were she came from.
For example, if you put a dot on a map of all of Clare's known locations, then the unknown location should be close by.

[Awakened]

Clare also ran into Riful.

[revan5]

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

i brougth this up long ago, and i can't remember the responses people gave, so i'll revisit it, as it has to do with ryus' post question....

"I agree with you in principle but I still wonder why Clare had walked for 3 days straight at the beginning of Chapter 1 then...

Maybe she had just been assigned a new area... or maybe she was very slow due to being #47 and only a quarter yoma back then... Whatever the reason I'm curious as to why." -ryus

do you guys/girls think that Clare just passed her final trainee-yoma test, and was made into an active Claymore, and was walking for 3 days from the Organization HQ to Doga town for her first mission and the start of the manga?

(there's at least a height problem. while Clare's short at the begining of the manga, she's even shorter or at least younger looking as a trainee. also 3 days would be pretty fast going from Org HQ to Doga, at least if Doga is in the western land)

Claire might have been short just after graduating to the ranks of warriors, but she was hardly that short later on. At full height, according to the databooks, Claire matched Irene's height of 170 centimeters, or 5'7". The average woman in 17th century England only stood 155 cm tall, or 5'1/2". Regarding the journey hypothesis, my guess is that it takes longer than three days to get from one side of the island to the other. Thus what we are viewing in the manga is not over the course of a single day, but over weeks. This is after all the medieval era, so timelines are somewhat muddled and long. The only definite timeline we have is that Claymores have been around for roughly a century, and that the Ghosts were in hiding for seven of those 100 years. How long did it take after Claire's graduation into the warrior ranks till she met Raki?

At first glance three days seems an okay guess, but mainly because a small country taking three days to traverse a portion of it to get there from the east makes sense. It does not make sense however when reading the 1st chapter. One comes away with a distinct impression that Claire has been to numerous towns before by the way she cynically tells Raki her name isn't important. She also said it would be "forgotten" soon enough, suggesting that his town was neither the first, nor amongst her earliest assignments. What this suggest is a warrior who has been in the ranks for at least half a year, and probably been in the ranks for a couple of years. If Claire joined the ranks physically immature, like is suggested in one of the extra chapters, then when we meet her physical growth and her cynicism make more sense. Claire had to grow up very quickly, just like her comrades had to. My guess of her age was that she was 15-17 years old when she meets Raki, which would make her both experienced and cynical, and explains her gaining her full stature.

As for the ages of the other Ghosts, my best guesses are the following:

Galatea (the "Elder" of the Ghosts, she is the oldest yet always eternally young girl of the Ghosts): 25-30 years old pre-Pieta, 32-37 years old post-Pieta
Miria: 20-25 years old when she meets Claire, 27-32 years old currently
Helen/Deneve: 18-20 years old when they meet Claire, 25-27 years old now
Tabitha/Cynthia: 18-22 years old (younger than Miria) at Pieta, 25-29 years old now
Yuma: 16-18 years old at Pieta, 23-25 years old currently
Clarice: 16-18 years old (she's got youth-like inexperience written all over her)
Miata: 9-11 years old (seems to be around a year or two before puberty kicks in)

Now some might say, Revan, haven't you done this before? Well yes, but this also ties in a lot with where the Island War is going. In this scenario I'm not even going to look at the wildcard effects Priscilla will have on things. What we essentially have now are two wildly disparate sides, with one side having the ability to replace warriors and the other having the best intelligence and commanders.

Age plays a factor in terms of knowledge and battlefield tactics. The Ghosts are blessed with the eldest and most knowledgeable of commanders, and every Ghost, Claire included, is older than whomever they will face. The Ghosts are also far more experienced attacking in groups, fighting Awakened Beings, and coordinating their movements. Against them are stacked a minor horde of female warriors, the vast majority not even superior to the 7 Ghosts' weakest member, Yuma. Their commanders lack the same level of experience and combat abilities that allow the Ghosts to survive encounters with Abyssal Ones. The one thing they have on their side besides numbers is a pool of replacements. However, as Galatea and Deneve note, the Organization seems to be seriously short-handed, most likely because instead of making more warriors they've been pouring resources into the Abyss Eaters' program.

I expect that when it comes down to it, a Ghost v. Organization war will likely be a one-strike and done thing unless something intervenes. That something might be Raki, as otherwise the Organization as it stands now lacks the numbers to compensate for the amazing group fighting skills/tactics Miria will bring to bear. Of course that's IF Miria doesn't let them in on the big secret. If that happens expect a spectacular amount of infighting to occur. The Ghosts in comparison do not suffer from such internal issues. If there is a war, I'd expect it might be over quickly with a Ghost victory over a weakened Organization. Of course, as with everything right now, it all depends on what mood Priscilla's in right now.

[revan5]

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

1. i'm just talking about the manga artwork. in first few chapters clare is much shorter, then the rest of the manga chapters. i haven't compared Clare's height in the first few chapters to her height in the flashback of her as a trainee. but, going off my memory, i think Clare is a bit taller in the first few chapters then she is as a trainee. she'd definately younger looking as a trainee, though maybe that's just cuz she has long hair lol.

2. my guess still stands at: ~ 1 month across the small "+" shaped island (N to S or W to E)

3. Clare is indeed the same size as Irene. thumbs up

Her flashback does suggest some time has passed before she meets Raki. She's obviously not going to hit full height in however many weeks it takes to walk to her new assigned area.

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

5. got any support for Clare not being on her very first assignment? manga chapter(s) and page number(s)?

Well Hegemon, you did say it took a month to get across the island. She would be starting at Staff, far to the east of her assigned area in the Western Lands. If you're right, then there's no way Claire took only 3 days to get to her assigned area from Staff. Especially since she was ranked 47th.

You also mentioned that Claire didn't quite seem full-grown in the special training chapter. I took a look again at Extra Scene 4, and it appears we're right. She isn't physically matured by the time she graduates, as is evidenced by ES 4, page 23, and ES4, page 26. Now compare that with Chapter 01, page 17. There is no way that in 3 days time her breasts would mature to that level. What it suggests is that perhaps after "graduating", Rubel took her into the field for extra training. During that time she continued growing and filling out while she did various missions.

Although you can put some of it down to Yagi's superior artwork, I would also suggest that perhaps Claire was still growing up as the manga goes along. She seems to physically mature alongside the maturing of Yagi's art style. See Chapter 25 page 18 (bottom right) and compare her then against Chapter 1 Claire. There is clearly a slight difference in build, though the artwork's improvement is most notable.

One caveat, if one looks at her face in Chapter 41, page 23, either her disguise and Yagi's artwork is making her look older, or we are actually watching her physically age to maturity before our eyes. If you notice her neck, eyes and facial proportions have all normalized compared to the beginning chapters.

Interesting comparison you should Hegemon is Old Rafaela vs Rafaela as Claire remembered her
Chapter 50, page 10 (Old Rafaela)
Chapter 92, page 02 ("Rafaela from Claire's Memory")

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

because we can just as well interprete Clare's, "you'll forget my name soon enough", to be a reference to how her beloved Teresa has so quickly been near forgotten.

We can interpret it yes, just like we can interpret the lack of an Irene death scene. The problem with Claymore has always been its ambiguity, which makes debating it popular, since there is often no certain "right" answer.

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

Galatea is NOT the "elder".

RAFAELA was and still is the OLDEST surviving (well now she is mostly deceased, at least her body is) Claymore. Galatea remains very young compared to Rafaela. Rafaela has been around for 3 whole "Eras". This would make her ~60 years old.

IRENE+ALICIA+BETH would be the next oldest, having lived through almost 2 "Eras". This would make them ~40 years old. Alicia and Beth were ~ the same age as Teresa. They were in "training" during Teresa's Era.

Actually Teresa is at least 8-10 years older than the twins. Teresa was training when she met Rafaela, shortly after a pair of identical twin girls were taken from a family.

Chapter 64, page 12:
Villager 1: "Did you hear about the Zemas? Recently they had twin girls...suddenly one of those black cloaks came to visit them and insisted they hand them over..."

Sounds remarkably like Alicia and Beth, doesn't it? The timing works out perfectly, and would mean that Alicia/Beth were probably 10-15 years old when Teresa was killed. So no, they aren't the same age as Teresa, but they aren't that much younger.

Galatea might not be the ELDER in that sense of how you talk about Rafalea, but I'm talking about the Ghosts ONLY. Galatea is remarked as having lived too long in Chapter 61, page 14. It is to my knowledge the only confirmation of Galatea being a longer-lived survivor than the others. Of course there is a chance Miria is the same age, but we wouldn't know that unless the Organization begins commenting on her age as well. I thought Miria might be older because high-ranked warriors tend to live the longest.

Note how Renee talks about the low-ranking warriors in Chapter 81, page 18:
Renee: "Soldiers are replaced all the time! Especially the lower ranks -- hardly any of them survive!"

What that suggests is that the Ghosts most likely are older as you get higher into their ranks.

The hypothesis suggests the lowest-ranked of the Ghosts is also probably the youngest. For Claire we know that's true, as Helen and Deneve confirm in Chapter 85, page 09: "Even in age she's the youngest of us".

Thus it is not unreasonable to expect that Yuma is probably younger than Miria, as warriors as low in rank as #40 probably don't last long, like Renee says. For the rest this hypothesis is more ambiguous, as Helen/Deneve's abilities were not actually reflected by their ranks.

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

We don't know when Galatea, Miria, and the rest joined, nor do we know how old they are/were.

We do know that Claire is the youngest of them, as Deneve states on page 09 of Chapter 85, saying that since Claire is the youngest out of all of them, it's not wrong to call her "a spoilt brat". Yes, so technically we don't know their ages, but it seems by the comments Galatea gets from the leadership about "having lived too long" that she would be the eldest of them all. Miria's age was never to our knowledge talked about in such a way, and we would have to assume the same is true of her other comrades. That means there is only one truly "old" lady amongst the Ghosts, though as they've gotten older the relative age difference has grown less.

Chapter 61 page 14:
Rimuto: "Shis is superb, but she has lived too long. Once they live that long, they start having dangerous thoughts."

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

so.... based on this.... Clare, Ophelia, Galatea, Miria, and etc are all roughly within the "same" age of each other (obviously, the margin of error is large, lol).

I would add only that they're within the same generation as one another.

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

7. the Organization CAN still have an unknown number of AFs/AEs remaining. ALSO, if desparate, the Organization can round up hundreds of humans (females AND MALES) and implant them with yoma flesh and make them into Claymore or even AB "militias" (lol). Don't forget that the Organization can probably make a HORDE of normal yoma (lol). LASTLY, there's the unknown possibility/factor. The Organization is NOT to be underestimated... They likely have some surprises "up their sleeves".

One hopes for the sake of making the story entertaining that you're right. It'd be a shame if this was too easy.

[camilla]

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

do you guys/girls think that Clare just passed her final trainee-yoma test, and was made into an active Claymore, and was walking for 3 days from the Organization HQ to Doga town for her first mission and the start of the manga?

(there's at least a height problem. while Clare's short at the begining of the manga, she's even shorter or at least younger looking as a trainee. also 3 days would be pretty fast going from Org HQ to Doga, at least if Doga is in the western land)

That wasn't her first mission. As you said, there's an evident height discrepancy between the Clare that had just passed the trainee test and the one we see appear at the beginning of the manga. Then, there's also this to take into account: if you look at the first two pages of chapter 1, you'll see that she had already killed a youma before having been sent to eliminate the one that was in Doga.

[revan5]

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

ya, i did kinda refute myself... and i definately agree with myself and you, lol !

you (and I, which i didn't realize was refuting myself, lol) are right.

Doga (Zaki-yoma and Raki) could NOT have been Clare's first mission. we both made good points, though i didn't realize i was doing so against my thinking that Clare was on her first mission, lol.

See Camilla's response, I think that sums it up best.

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

you're ignoring the comment also made by rafaela, asking if trainee teresa had a sister...

Actually I ran out of space and time to get to it. I thus had to be picky with what I answered.

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

this presumably means that rafaela was asking if trainee teresa was alicia or beth.

which would mean that alicia and beth are the same age (or near it) as teresa, since rafaela mistook trainee teresa for alicia or beth.

No, I don't think that's it. I think Rafaela's asking in the context of having lost a sister to Awakening and hearing about Alicia and Beth being taken from their parents after birth. If you were Rafaela, wouldn't it seem to be a relief not to have the emotional baggage that comes with having family fighting alongside you?

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

either..
1. there's a time skip between rafaela in town hearing about the birth and taking of alicia+beth and rafaela traveling through the forest near the same town where she encounters trainee teresa.

this has problems in that if it is true, the manga didn't clearly let us know.

however, there's been many flashbacks in the manga, and some aren't spelled out very clearly either.

Hegemon, Yagi not giving us definite answers has ALWAYS been a problem for us. He's done this to us repeatedly, the latest being the death of Beth, which he didn't show but brought closure to AFTER it had happened. Then there's the much-debated "death of Irene"...

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

OR...

2. there's NOT a time skip

(i agree) it is more likely that there is no time skip, and you are right that teresa is years older then just-born alicia and beth.

but then how do we interprete rafaela asking teresa is she has a sister?

does this mean that rafaela is worried that the Organization has continued to gather sisters all this time trying to get a successful soul link, instead of alicia+beth being the only attempt after rafaela+luciela had their disastrous attempt?

I would interpret it as the sympathetic questioning of a girl who has lost all that matters to her. What was that? Her sister!

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

i stand corrected or agree with everything else..

Clare is younger/youngest then the rest of her "Era".

higher rank Claymores are definately older as they are still alive and the lower ranked Claymores have died off early. though, that in no way means that a lower ranked warrior can't be older then a high ranked warrior (until she dies, which then the younger high ranked warrior surpasses her in age). best examples are Priscilla, Miata, and Riful. all 3 are the youngest despite being high ranked. high ranks can certainly be VERY young due to extreme raw talent/power.

also, we don't know which or if any of Clare's "Era" of Claymores were active or trainee Claymores during Teresa's "Era". Though, Galatea as you pointed out, does seem to be older... which could mean she was around during Teresa's "Era"... except..... this has a bunch of issues that yagi hasn't addressed at all... if it is so...

It is a shame Yagi doesn't provide us much definite information on ages. If we could just get Galatea's age and Claire's age, we'd be able to provide a range of ages for every Ghost, from Yuma to Claire.

[Ryus]

Originally Posted by HegemonKhan

personally....

i don't understand something...

considering how much Rafaela+Luciela loved each other...

I'm shocked that Rafaela didn't annihilate the Organization, right then and there after AO Luciela left... for the southern land, so long ago....

rafaela kept working for the Organization... even though THEY THEY THEY did this to them....


err, i just remembered....

RAFAELA BLAMED HERSELF FOR THE FAILED SOUL LINK AND WHAT HAPPENED TO HER SISTER... if only she put the blame also on the Organization, where it really belongs...

well... then we wouldn't have much of a story then, lol.. if Rafaela went berserk and annihilated the Organization... lol...

From Raphaela's point of view SHE did that to Luciela. Not the organization. It was her failure for being weak. She seemed to give no thought to the organizations methods or what they did to them. It was entirely her fault.

[revan5]

I've got a prediction everyone's welcome to weigh in on. I predict that we will see Dragonkin by Chapter 120. Let's face it, Yagi is killing off characters left and right, and once we get past the introducing of the remaining 2 single digits of the Organization we don't know, then we'll need something to liven up the breadth of the plot. Plus I suspect the Organization's progress with Raki will cause Rubel's superiors to finally decide to intervene with military force...

That or Claire/Helen/Deneve finally let their secret out of the bag. However, I suspect that Dietrich may have already noticed that Deneve surpassed her limits...and when Dietrich gets back, all hell is going to break loose...

[Ryus]

Originally Posted by revan5

I've got a prediction everyone's welcome to weigh in on. I predict that we will see Dragonkin by Chapter 120. Let's face it, Yagi is killing off characters left and right, and once we get past the introducing of the remaining 2 single digits of the Organization we don't know, then we'll need something to liven up the breadth of the plot. Plus I suspect the Organization's progress with Raki will cause Rubel's superiors to finally decide to intervene with military force...

That or Claire/Helen/Deneve finally let their secret out of the bag. However, I suspect that Dietrich may have already noticed that Deneve surpassed her limits...and when Dietrich gets back, all hell is going to break loose...

You already know my opinion but once again... I suspect you are right, the time of the Dragonkin is nigh!

Oh, and love for the organization to discover about partially awakened being! It would really up the danger for the Fab 4 (and possibly Cynthia and/or Yuma... based on what Yagi does with them). Plus the very notion of having Rubel being forced to act is just awesome... You should always fear Rubel.

[(Hiyori_Tamura)]

I'll also weight in in the discussion ^_^
I definetely think that the Dragon Clan will show up, or at least I hope they will. I can just see everyone just beating the crap out of each other, and that way the organization would be destroyed and it would make a great climax.
Although, I have a feeling something is gonna happen to raki...Do you think they might turn him into a claymore? Since he has great will and everything? (Plus he's super strong...) and that way Yagi could have the two end up together WITHOUT raki getting old and ugly and Clare staying her gorgeous babe self. Plus it wouldn't look wrong later xD I dunno that's just what I'm guessing.
I don't think Clare is gonna die either, because she's staying alive for Raki and Teresa.
And I think it would be awesome if Teresa's powers peaked in Clare and she became like "Super Clare" and beat the crap outta priscilla xD That and Irene coming back...

[revan5]

Spoiler for Island War in Review:

Island War in Review

Active Factions (ranked in order of power):

1/1: Destroyer/Priscilla-Much like the Cold War, the two most recently awakened superpowers of the claymore universe have never actually directly fought one another. Instead the Destroyer has tried (and failed) to kill Priscilla using its control over first its "hellcat" offspring, then infected Abyssal-level fighter Beth, who along with her identical twin died fighting Prissy, and finally now it's heading towards the superpower confrontation.

Much like how the Korean War threatened at times to turn into WWIII (Anyone remember General Macarthur advocating use of nukes against mainland China before he was fired by President Truman?), this coming confrontation appears to be the Claymore equivalent. Now, there are a number of different arguments for and against both sides, but the fact of the matter is we don't really know what the outcome will be. The only thing capable of killing the Destroyer might be Priscilla, and vice versa. The ultimate outcome in the Cold War would have been mutually assured destruction, or MAD. Will this coming confrontation be a claymore equivalent? One thing's for certain, the future of the island war hinges on it.

3. The Organization

I know some people will disagree with this ranking, but allow me to explain. The ghosts would have received the third ranking but for a few massive problems. The first of which is that one of their top two fighters, Claire, alongside two of their elite fighters, Helen and Deneve, are in danger of dying at the hands of Priscilla or killed by the Destroyer. Then you have the Organization's loyal lapdog, former No. 8 Dietrich, "rescuing" Yuma while leading around a bunch of Abyss Eaters. Call it paranoid suspicion, but the fact that Dietrich has talked to her superiors already is downright alarming. At the moment, despite their huge losses, the Organization now has the opportunity to strike first in the coming Organization-Ghost war. With Raki possibly becoming their new No. 1, the Organization is shaping up to be a much tougher opponent than thought possible after losing Nos. 1, 2, & 4.

4.) Ghosts

The Ghosts are a formidable force compared with the Organization as is. Should Claire, Helen, and Deneve survive, they have the raw might to easily overpower the elite ranks of the Organization with just those three. With Miria, Tabitha, Cynthia, Yuma, Miata, Galatea and Clarice added to that equation, the scales are in danger of tipping in the Ghosts' favor. Only the current predicaments of the western Ghosts at present time prevents me from listing the Ghosts in third.

Non-active faction: Dragonkin & allies

While we don't know much about the Dragonkin or the military superpower they're aligned with, it seems fair to say they'd be very interested in invading the island were a Ghost captured for experiments (especially true if that Ghost were half-awakened). Don't expect this faction to stay in the shadows for that much longer once Prissy v. Destroyer is finished.

Dead factions (Oh how we miss (or don't) the!

Western Abyssal (Riful)

Turned out to be a huge disappointment in that she was totally outclassed by Alicia/Beth, then didn't dodge the Destroyers' incoming arsenal, was temporarily saved from death by Alicia running to save her sister, then finished off by Priscilla when she came hungry. Dauf's ignominious death completed this faction's complete annihilation.

Northern Abyssal (Isley)

Never has one faction gone from having so much to so little. Isley before the Northern War looked set to conquer the whole island, but he squandered his resources. He lost his lieutenant and seven other Awakened Beings out of an army of 31 ABs. Then, having needlessly lost Rigardo when he didn't intervene himself, he split his army to face annihilation at both ends. He was left with Priscilla, who alone would have been enough for him to conquer the island. Sadly for Isley, upon defeating the Southern Abyssal, he was lulled into complacent family life and settled down. He then suicidally sent Prissy away (or not, depending if you believe Isley would've survived Prissy's truly monstrous side awakening) with Raki, and was shortly thereafter finished off by the Organization's Abyss Eaters. But if it's any consolation to his fans, at least Isley went out with a bang.

Southern Abyssal (Luciella)

Seemingly the weakest of the Abyssals in that she was weaker than Isley and didn't have any Awakened followers, Luciella died after her defeat at the hands of Isley. Killed by her own sister, she now lives on in the Destroyer, the result of the fused bodies of Luciella/Rafaela (sisters) awakening.

[evil_kenshin]

Originally Posted by revan5

Spoiler for Island War in Review:

Island War in Review

Active Factions (ranked in order of power):

1/1: Destroyer/Priscilla-Much like the Cold War, the two most recently awakened superpowers of the claymore universe have never actually directly fought one another. Instead the Destroyer has tried (and failed) to kill Priscilla using its control over first its "hellcat" offspring, then infected Abyssal-level fighter Beth, who along with her identical twin died fighting Prissy, and finally now it's heading towards the superpower confrontation.

Much like how the Korean War threatened at times to turn into WWIII (Anyone remember General Macarthur advocating use of nukes against mainland China before he was fired by President Truman?), this coming confrontation appears to be the Claymore equivalent. Now, there are a number of different arguments for and against both sides, but the fact of the matter is we don't really know what the outcome will be. The only thing capable of killing the Destroyer might be Priscilla, and vice versa. The ultimate outcome in the Cold War would have been mutually assured destruction, or MAD. Will this coming confrontation be a claymore equivalent? One thing's for certain, the future of the island war hinges on it.

3. The Organization

I know some people will disagree with this ranking, but allow me to explain. The ghosts would have received the third ranking but for a few massive problems. The first of which is that one of their top two fighters, Claire, alongside two of their elite fighters, Helen and Deneve, are in danger of dying at the hands of Priscilla or killed by the Destroyer. Then you have the Organization's loyal lapdog, former No. 8 Dietrich, "rescuing" Yuma while leading around a bunch of Abyss Eaters. Call it paranoid suspicion, but the fact that Dietrich has talked to her superiors already is downright alarming. At the moment, despite their huge losses, the Organization now has the opportunity to strike first in the coming Organization-Ghost war. With Raki possibly becoming their new No. 1, the Organization is shaping up to be a much tougher opponent than thought possible after losing Nos. 1, 2, & 4.

4.) Ghosts

The Ghosts are a formidable force compared with the Organization as is. Should Claire, Helen, and Deneve survive, they have the raw might to easily overpower the elite ranks of the Organization with just those three. With Miria, Tabitha, Cynthia, Yuma, Miata, Galatea and Clarice added to that equation, the scales are in danger of tipping in the Ghosts' favor. Only the current predicaments of the western Ghosts at present time prevents me from listing the Ghosts in third.

Non-active faction: Dragonkin & allies

While we don't know much about the Dragonkin or the military superpower they're aligned with, it seems fair to say they'd be very interested in invading the island were a Ghost captured for experiments (especially true if that Ghost were half-awakened). Don't expect this faction to stay in the shadows for that much longer once Prissy v. Destroyer is finished.

Dead factions (Oh how we miss (or don't) the!

Western Abyssal (Riful)

Turned out to be a huge disappointment in that she was totally outclassed by Alicia/Beth, then didn't dodge the Destroyers' incoming arsenal, was temporarily saved from death by Alicia running to save her sister, then finished off by Priscilla when she came hungry. Dauf's ignominious death completed this faction's complete annihilation.

Northern Abyssal (Isley)

Never has one faction gone from having so much to so little. Isley before the Northern War looked set to conquer the whole island, but he squandered his resources. He lost his lieutenant and seven other Awakened Beings out of an army of 31 ABs. Then, having needlessly lost Rigardo when he didn't intervene himself, he split his army to face annihilation at both ends. He was left with Priscilla, who alone would have been enough for him to conquer the island. Sadly for Isley, upon defeating the Southern Abyssal, he was lulled into complacent family life and settled down. He then suicidally sent Prissy away (or not, depending if you believe Isley would've survived Prissy's truly monstrous side awakening) with Raki, and was shortly thereafter finished off by the Organization's Abyss Eaters. But if it's any consolation to his fans, at least Isley went out with a bang.

Southern Abyssal (Luciella)

Seemingly the weakest of the Abyssals in that she was weaker than Isley and didn't have any Awakened followers, Luciella died after her defeat at the hands of Isley. Killed by her own sister, she now lives on in the Destroyer, the result of the fused bodies of Luciella/Rafaela (sisters) awakening.

Personally I think Priscilla is stronger than the Destroyer. Sure the destroyer makes hellcats and whatnot but we know Priscilla is the ultimate villain of the story so she will win in a fight with the destroyer

So Priscilla would be strongest faction (especially after all the opponents she's just gone and killed) and destroyer second based on known feats.


Also I'd add Galatae, Miata and Clarice to the ghosts faction atleast for now though maybe they count as their own faction in a way too (not directly part of the ghosts but still an ally of them)

[Shiek927]

Personally I think Priscilla is stronger than the Destroyer. Sure the destroyer makes hellcats and whatnot but we know Priscilla is the ultimate villain of the story so she will win in a fight with the destroyer

Roflmao, that's not really a legitimate reason....

[evil_kenshin]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Roflmao, that's not really a legitimate reason....

well a more fairer reason would be Priscilla is said to be stronger than 2 Abyssal ones (Riful's comment when she realised her earlier statement that it would take 2 Abyssals to beat her was wrong) and the destroyer is literally 2 Abyssal ones strong lol

Furthermore she has torn through Alica , Beth (equal in strength to her sister), Riful and destroyer duph the first 3 being Abyssal level and Duph somewhere in between a awakened number 1 and 2 in strength.

While Riful was heavily worn out the addition of duph would make the group about 2.5-3 Abyssal levels strong she has just fought and won without to much trouble (It's implied heavily Priscilla allowed duph to hit her in 103 rather than actually him beating her down on his own accord).

The story is looking to pit in a physical fight the destroyer vs Priscilla with Priscilla being the one who will win or atleast stalemate the destroyer (no way is Priscilla dying yet lol)

I know my original reason (being the villain) isn't solid but what I put above should be a bit better

[Ryus]

Originally Posted by evil_kenshin

well a more fairer reason would be Priscilla is said to be stronger than 2 Abyssal ones (Riful's comment when she realised her earlier statement that it would take 2 Abyssals to beat her was wrong) and the destroyer is literally 2 Abyssal ones strong lol

Furthermore she has torn through Alica , Beth (equal in strength to her sister), Riful and destroyer duph the first 3 being Abyssal level and Duph somewhere in between a awakened number 1 and 2 in strength.

While Riful was heavily worn out the addition of duph would make the group about 2.5-3 Abyssal levels strong she has just fought and won without to much trouble (It's implied heavily Priscilla allowed duph to hit her in 103 rather than actually him beating her down on his own accord).

The story is looking to pit in a physical fight the destroyer vs Priscilla with Priscilla being the one who will win or atleast stalemate the destroyer (no way is Priscilla dying yet lol)

I know my original reason (being the villain) isn't solid but what I put above should be a bit better

I'm not so sure... in just one barrage The Destroyer has shown that she can likely beat 3 AOs at once. In the first barrage she fired, even though she fired the barrage from seemingly miles away, she hit Riful a minimum of 5 times (and she sensed the incoming attack but was so taken by surprise by the speed of it she was still hit), Dauf 4 times, Beth once (and she was in human form, so a much smaller target and on top of that she had already shown skill at dodging when controlling her sister), and it's unclear if Alicia dodged the attack or just got lucky... So at that distance she took down an AO (at least to the point where she was out of the fight), brought another #3 to deaths door, and infected a #1 (which would have likely been mortal wound to an offensive fighter like Beth if the rod didn't infect her instead). That is some serious power. Clearly she can take on two AOs at once two, especially if they couldn't even dodge one attack coming from a vast distance, of seemingly miles away.

Both Priscilla and the Destroyer are so far beyond any way we have to measure their power level that it's not even funny... but scary as hell. They are [evil] goddess among insects. Soon enough though we'll likely discover who the stronger is. At the moment we might be able to guess their minimum power levels but A) it's only a guess B) it's the minimum they could be. So just because people speculate one has shown more power than the other doesn't mean that the other doesn't have even more power that they haven't shown. In short we don't know what percent of their shown powers are of there total powers, since both seemingly are holding back and/or not focusing on a single target.

[Shiek927]

Ryus is right - as I've said to Gooral, we only know the minimum both of them are capable of. Until we both see them fight at full power against an enemy the same strength and/or stronger then them, we won't really know just how strong they truly are.

In other words, until they fight eachother.

[revan5]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Ryus is right - as I've said to Gooral, we only know the minimum both of them are capable of. Until we both see them fight at full power against an enemy the same strength and/or stronger then them, we won't really know just how strong they truly are.

In other words, until they fight eachother.

Here's the thing with this discussion, we're all talking about who is stronger, but I would say this is closer to a nuclear war scenario. In other words, it will be the death of both of them to fight each other. Now, you could say, "Revan, what outrageous nonsense are you spouting now?"

What I am saying is that due to the incredible strengths of the two, fighting each other might be guaranteed to be mortally fatal. Priscilla is going to be coming in, gunning for Claire rather than the Destroyer, which in turn will be gunning for both the ghosts & Priscilla. At the very least, should one win, I expect the other to be either seriously weakened or on death's door. If Priscilla barely survives, the chances of Miria or possibly Claire taking her down go up exponentially. Miria in particular is uniquely dangerous to Priscilla with her cloaked yoki and incredible speed.

Think of it this way: Priscilla is the Soviet Union, and the Destroyer is Nazi Germany. Chances are, when the attacks start flying, both are going to feel a hell of a lot of pain. My question is, should they fight, does anyone realistically expect either to survive if Miria/other Ghosts show up in the immediate aftermath of victory?

[evil_kenshin]

Originally Posted by Ryus

I'm not so sure... in just one barrage The Destroyer has shown that she can likely beat 3 AOs at once. In the first barrage she fired, even though she fired the barrage from seemingly miles away, she hit Riful a minimum of 5 times (and she sensed the incoming attack but was so taken by surprise by the speed of it she was still hit), Dauf 4 times, Beth once (and she was in human form, so a much smaller target and on top of that she had already shown skill at dodging when controlling her sister), and it's unclear if Alicia dodged the attack or just got lucky... So at that distance she took down an AO (at least to the point where she was out of the fight), brought another #3 to deaths door, and infected a #1 (which would have likely been mortal wound to an offensive fighter like Beth if the rod didn't infect her instead). That is some serious power. Clearly she can take on two AOs at once two, especially if they couldn't even dodge one attack coming from a vast distance, of seemingly miles away.

Both Priscilla and the Destroyer are so far beyond any way we have to measure their power level that it's not even funny... but scary as hell. They are [evil] goddess among insects. Soon enough though we'll likely discover who the stronger is. At the moment we might be able to guess their minimum power levels but A) it's only a guess B) it's the minimum they could be. So just because people speculate one has shown more power than the other doesn't mean that the other doesn't have even more power that they haven't shown. In short we don't know what percent of their shown powers are of there total powers, since both seemingly are holding back and/or not focusing on a single target.

I guess that does make sense. Considering how much Duaf increased in strength I probably just did underestimate the destroyer

It would be an interesting plot twist the destroyer is stronger (even more if it actually beats Priscilla for once the bored look/smirk will be wiped off her face)