AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2018-05-23, 12:01   Link #3181
Blueknight78
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magewolf View Post
If they can do full consciousness uploads they have to be able to simulate emotions as well because they are an important part of how we think. If they can not emulate emotions then I doubt they could even get what we would think of as a self aware system out of an upload.

The anti-emotion thing seems to be mostly based on the leadership seeing emotions as "icky" and hard to control as opposed to any technological barrier.
that is the problem, it's too troublesome to do that, that is why they are just aiming to get riddle of "it", and get just the "logical part" of mankind, emotions all the luggage which come with it already showed to troublesome and complicated to control for them, as we saw with the "mind wipe being "fail", that is why is much more simple get riddle of it, this could be the most "logical" and fast choice, they really don't care if they gonna really keep being humans" as long they gonna be able to keep them functional.

Emotions, selfawareness, gender, reproduction and consciousness are "too troublesome" for them to deal them the must simple and best solution is get riddle of it.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic240848_1.gif:small
Blueknight78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-23, 15:01   Link #3182
wissenschaft
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
https://www.reddit.com/r/DarlingInTh..._it_cars_cars/

Notice the keychain. This show has some great fanart.
__________________
wissenschaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-23, 15:53   Link #3183
Norn
Dazed and Confused
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Ocean Floor 13
I didn't touch upon it in my previous comment, but people should really react to signs more. Zero Two discovering Miku's hair becoming gray, Hiro noticing something's off about Zero Two. This show loves to have loved ones brush off things that would not entirely go unnoticed IRL.
Norn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-23, 16:08   Link #3184
Gan_HOPE326
Maddo Scientisto
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
that is the problem, it's too troublesome to do that, that is why they are just aiming to get riddle of "it", and get just the "logical part" of mankind, emotions all the luggage which come with it already showed to troublesome and complicated to control for them, as we saw with the "mind wipe being "fail", that is why is much more simple get riddle of it, this could be the most "logical" and fast choice, they really don't care if they gonna really keep being humans" as long they gonna be able to keep them functional.

Emotions, selfawareness, gender, reproduction and consciousness are "too troublesome" for them to deal them the must simple and best solution is get riddle of it.
We're mixing two levels here.

Number 1: what APE is doing. It's evil, it's stupid, they're a bunch of assholes who hopefully will all be sodomised by Zero Two riding Strelizia with a giant strap-on mounted on front. I think we can all agree on that. Moving on.

Number 2: transhumanism in sci-fi in general. Not just Darling in the FranXX. It's a common trope to associate transhumanism ( = transcending the human body) with villainy of some sort, cold-heartedness etc. DitF is just one such example, focusing on the specifics of gender. Now, since of course there is no such thing in real life, this is just a choice by the writers. "If you remove X, we stop being human" is a very common argument in these settings. Now, of course, if humans were uploaded to machines, they might for example lose their notion of gender, because they wouldn't have sexed bodies any more. Such a human could for example switch between artificial male and female bodies at will. We get a similar situation in Doctor Who, where the Doctor (who isn't a human, but is sentient) can regenerate as both a man and a woman, and thus has a less solid sense of gender than a human being would.

The point is, why should something like that make us "less human"? It would make us differently human, so to say. It would be a change in habits and customs, sure, a radical one, but it would not affect fundamental human dignity. What makes APE despicable isn't that they don't have human bodies any more. It's that they're breeding child soldiers, torturing them and sending them to die. That's their brand of evil shit, and that kind of stuff perfectly normal humans can and in fact do perpetrate even in real life.
__________________
----
What if Goku was super smart and had a thing for philosophy? Find out in The Optimised Wish Project!
----

My other fanfiction can be found here.
Gan_HOPE326 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-23, 16:37   Link #3185
Blueknight78
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
The point is, why should something like that make us "less human"? It would make us differently human, so to say. It would be a change in habits and customs, sure, a radical one, but it would not affect fundamental human dignity. What makes APE despicable isn't that they don't have human bodies any more. It's that they're breeding child soldiers, torturing them and sending them to die. That's their brand of evil shit, and that kind of stuff perfectly normal humans can and in fact do perpetrate even in real life.
And that is the point from a "biologic point you do lose your humanity", because you don't have anymore all the genetic needs to be "classified as a human, it will be a new race/specie, like elvens dwarfs and others fantasy races, no matter how they "look" and act as human, they are not human they are another race and that is the thing, what make us human is not just "culture, or philosophy/ethics, but how your body must be composed to qualify your as "human", i'm not saying which you can't do that if you true want, but take in account which doing that you are really leaving behind your humanity, no matter how much "emotional" or human like you can remain, if you don't have what is needed to qualify as a human then you are not a human and just something else new, like how we evolved from "monkeys" or something like that, what we where in the past during the evolution we can't consider or call them "humans" because the human race really comes after the "homo sapiens", now if we evolve again by like the anime using machines and creating "artificial bodies, they will be not humans anymore no matter how you would like to call yourself or feel yourself "human" you are not.

As i told if we follow that logic them why cats can't be dogs???? if is just a matter of "different view about it or perception??.
It's not just a matter of name, like even if instead of "humans" we are called like "bobs", the problem could be the same and peoples could come and complain why call it bob???, it's just not a nomenclature it was did just for us to know how to call it, but what being human is what being human is our genetic/evolution.
Spoiler:
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic240848_1.gif:small
Blueknight78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-23, 19:57   Link #3186
Gan_HOPE326
Maddo Scientisto
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
And that is the point from a "biologic point you do lose your humanity", because you don't have anymore all the genetic needs to be "classified as a human, it will be a new race/specie, like elvens dwarfs and others fantasy races, no matter how they "look" and act as human, they are not human they are another race and that is the thing, what make us human is not just "culture, or philosophy/ethics, but how your body must be composed to qualify your as "human", i'm not saying which you can't do that if you true want, but take in account which doing that you are really leaving behind your humanity, no matter how much "emotional" or human like you can remain, if you don't have what is needed to qualify as a human then you are not a human and just something else new, like how we evolved from "monkeys" or something like that, what we where in the past during the evolution we can't consider or call them "humans" because the human race really comes after the "homo sapiens", now if we evolve again by like the anime using machines and creating "artificial bodies, they will be not humans anymore no matter how you would like to call yourself or feel yourself "human" you are not.

As i told if we follow that logic them why cats can't be dogs???? if is just a matter of "different view about it or perception??.
It's not just a matter of name, like even if instead of "humans" we are called like "bobs", the problem could be the same and peoples could come and complain why call it bob???, it's just not a nomenclature it was did just for us to know how to call it, but what being human is what being human is our genetic/evolution.
Spoiler:
Well, yeah, you could call them "cyborgs" or whatever, ok, consider them a new race, but then you would also have to accept that they still are sentient and have rights and their own dignity. What I'm complaining about is the idea that becoming such a cyborg is associated necessarily with being evil. I don't think it's an evil thing per se, and I don't think it would necessarily make a person evil. APE are evil because they use evil means to pursue their objective, not because the objective itself is evil.

As for the heart stuff, that sounds very shady research. I've never heard of anything like that. Of course if the heart races faster it's at the order of the nervous system, though some work might be done by the spinal chord rather than the brain. If your brain dies you're also declared dead and they can extract your organs, even if your body is still working. The point is that the brain constitutes the essence of the person. If they could swap your brain with someone else's it would correspond to you swapping bodies, effectively. Not understanding everything doesn't mean there's a good chance that part of your personality is in your heart. Your heart is still only a muscle.
__________________
----
What if Goku was super smart and had a thing for philosophy? Find out in The Optimised Wish Project!
----

My other fanfiction can be found here.
Gan_HOPE326 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-23, 20:18   Link #3187
Blueknight78
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
Well, yeah, you could call them "cyborgs" or whatever, ok, consider them a new race, but then you would also have to accept that they still are sentient and have rights and their own dignity. What I'm complaining about is the idea that becoming such a cyborg is associated necessarily with being evil. I don't think it's an evil thing per se, and I don't think it would necessarily make a person evil. APE are evil because they use evil means to pursue their objective, not because the objective itself is evil.
This is another problem, currently we already having problem with "clones" and even machines we already having peoples debating about that, about if we can give the same "human rights" even for clones once they are not true humans and a product cloned from someone else(also taking in account which human cloning still illegal around the wolrd, then the same goes for machines, while for now we can't really give then thye same human rights is being debated exactly that what could be they rights and all bla bla bla.

But personally i could have no problem recognizing then as a sentient living and have rights, but again it must be something which they did on they own desires not something "someone else did fforced on them like what APE is doing.

Labeling living being monsters just because they are "different is really wrong" and totally disagree with that and believe which everything must have his place and right in the world, my only problem is "what sort of laws to apply and how to apply", because not everything which work with humans can 100% work with them, the laws must be carefull worked to make sure everyone have they fair shares.

APE is evil not just because of they "means" but because what they are doing is not what you are "ask for" again, while they want to "create a new life form" it will be getting riddle of what make the peoples "unique" or sentient which is the free will and emotions and that is the problem they don't want just "evolve" or they "idea of evolution" is evil because they want to stripe mankind from what make then unique if was just replace the organic parts for machines one and keep them with all the freewill and emotions ok fine, but they want to strip it off, that is what make them evil, they final goal is evil no matter how you look

Quote:
As for the heart stuff, that sounds very shady research. I've never heard of anything like that. Of course if the heart races faster it's at the order of the nervous system, though some work might be done by the spinal chord rather than the brain. If your brain dies you're also declared dead and they can extract your organs, even if your body is still working. The point is that the brain constitutes the essence of the person. If they could swap your brain with someone else's it would correspond to you swapping bodies, effectively. Not understanding everything doesn't mean there's a good chance that part of your personality is in your heart. Your heart is still only a muscle.
not really, you already hear about "genetic memory???", where parts of you memory or ancestral memory can be passed not only to brains but also others "body parts", well we have a lot of cases with heart transplant where peoples which received hearts from dead peoples started to act a little like the original heart owner, like peoples which never liked animals like cats or dog after receiving a heart from a person which love them, they started themselfs to like them, for "no reason" like they could not explain why, we have many scientists studing this, the possibility of not only your brain but many parts of your body being able to carry a "little about who you are", not just the brains.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic240848_1.gif:small

Last edited by Blueknight78; 2018-05-24 at 16:23.
Blueknight78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-23, 21:02   Link #3188
wissenschaft
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Wow, the attention to small details in this show is really impressive.

Been watching Nearly On Red's youtube anyalis of the show and there are so many hints and little details given in the early episodes that come up again in latter epsiodes.

For example, episode 3 has 02 mention that the plantation's squad has been wiped out before. This apparently doesn't register with the kids till episode 8 when Miku discovers the picture of said squad.

Another cool little detail. The song (Vanquish) that plays in the first episode when 02 pulls Hiro into the cockpit and kisses him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=symHPiLIu2Q

The lyrics are actually in English. Good thing one could understand it because its quite spoilery for the very first episode. lol

I really do have to rewatch this whole series again once it ends. I want to see how many of these small details I either missed or failed to recognize their significance.
__________________

Last edited by wissenschaft; 2018-05-23 at 21:53.
wissenschaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-24, 04:20   Link #3189
Kismet-chan
The Chaotic Dreamer
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In a cruel yet beautiful world
Age: 27
Preview of Epi 19 is out.

Spoiler for Thoughts:
__________________
Kismet-chan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-24, 07:30   Link #3190
KPSJ
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kismet-chan View Post
Preview of Epi 19 is out.

Spoiler for Thoughts:
This episode is not a break at all it was needed we were 18 episodes deep with no backstory on anything about the world
KPSJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-24, 09:26   Link #3191
kampfer91
Master Eugenist
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Hmm , so when Dr Franxx still young , human still....human ? No living a longevity life untill the APE director came ?

That Franxx prototype pilot may be 01 .
kampfer91 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-24, 10:44   Link #3192
Mistyclear
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Spoiler for Preview:
Mistyclear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-24, 15:36   Link #3193
wissenschaft
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Spoiler:
__________________
wissenschaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-24, 15:56   Link #3194
Gan_HOPE326
Maddo Scientisto
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
This is another problem, currently we already having problem with "clones" and even machines we already having peoples debating about that, about if we can give the same "human rights" even for clones once they are not true humans and a product cloned from someone else(also taking in account which human cloning still illegal around the wolrd, then the same goes for machines, while for now we can't really give then thye same human rights is being debated exactly that what could be they rights and all bla bla bla.
I sure hope no one actually thinks that of potential human clones because that'd be fucking monstrous. Cloning humans might be considered unethical, but if someone were (and this could happen literally tomorrow), the clone wouldn't have any fault and would be a perfectly normal human being. That's really basic stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
But personally i could have no problem recognizing then as a sentient living and have rights, but again it must be something which they did on they own desires not something "someone else did fforced on them like what APE is doing.

Labeling living being monsters just because they are "different is really wrong" and totally disagree with that and believe which everything must have his place and right in the world, my only problem is "what sort of laws to apply and how to apply", because not everything which work with humans can 100% work with them, the laws must be carefull worked to make sure everyone have they fair shares.

APE is evil not just because of they "means" but because what they are doing is not what you are "ask for" again, while they want to "create a new life form" it will be getting riddle of what make the peoples "unique" or sentient which is the free will and emotions and that is the problem they don't want just "evolve" or they "idea of evolution" is evil because they want to stripe mankind from what make then unique if was just replace the organic parts for machines one and keep them with all the freewill and emotions ok fine, but they want to strip it off, that is what make them evil, they final goal is evil no matter how you look
You keep confusing stuff. First, APE didn't mention anything about removing free will. They infringe freedom because of how they act, but if they want to apply the procedure to themselves as well, clearly it's not something that they would do. So at least it's not a necessary feature of the process.

Second, I don't think hypothetical "real" transhumanism would necessarily mean losing emotions. That kind of thing is the strawman I'm complaining about in the first place, the fact itself that the story uses that sort of plot device.

Third, even if it did, if someone chose freely to trade some or all of their emotions for immortality, it'd be their choice. If they did it without inconveniencing others, it'd be their business, and if they kept being sentient and conscious afterwards, they'd still deserve personhood, emotions or not.
__________________
----
What if Goku was super smart and had a thing for philosophy? Find out in The Optimised Wish Project!
----

My other fanfiction can be found here.
Gan_HOPE326 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-24, 16:40   Link #3195
xrick
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Portugal
Age: 30
I've seen a preview with subs, and all that theory regarding the klaxx princess doesn't seem much likely.
From Dr. Franxx's words, I can only assume that things were dicey until he finally met/found the klaxx princess.
I'm not quite sure, one of you may better understand the preview...
__________________
Looking for suggestions of Portuguese (of Portugal) Publishers that might have an interest in publishing a LN-style Original Novel Series.
xrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-24, 16:48   Link #3196
Blueknight78
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
I sure hope no one actually thinks that of potential human clones because that'd be fucking monstrous. Cloning humans might be considered unethical, but if someone were (and this could happen literally tomorrow), the clone wouldn't have any fault and would be a perfectly normal human being. That's really basic stuff.

You keep confusing stuff. First, APE didn't mention anything about removing free will. They infringe freedom because of how they act, but if they want to apply the procedure to themselves as well, clearly it's not something that they would do. So at least it's not a necessary feature of the process.

Second, I don't think hypothetical "real" transhumanism would necessarily mean losing emotions. That kind of thing is the strawman I'm complaining about in the first place, the fact itself that the story uses that sort of plot device.

Third, even if it did, if someone chose freely to trade some or all of their emotions for immortality, it'd be their choice. If they did it without inconveniencing others, it'd be their business, and if they kept being sentient and conscious afterwards, they'd still deserve personhood, emotions or not.
while i like our talk maybe could be better continue in private most of it, but going back to the more anime precise talk.

What i'm using is a mixing between what APE and nines talk, APe say which they are planning free mankind from the "issues of the body" them if you look at the currently "mankind status under APE and PAPA administration is not really different from take away freewill, the currently mankind is almost "machines" without any personnal desire or goal, living just for "living and being productive to the society(japanese life style paralel don't forget about it) them you have the nines claim which gender, reproduction, emotions and that things are "crap and not necessary and are issues" what can be linked to what APE want, ofcourse if this is not what APE really want them ok i'm wrong, but so far the clues shows which APE idea of "evolution" have to do with it, you loose sense of "yourself" as unique person" and become the "hive mentality" living for the coletive.

About the "sentient", remember good part of what make us "sentient" is exactly "emotions" and feelings, if you take it away, them we not gonna be different from a "computer", them you can't really claim it's "sentient" if it can't display a real notion of what it's means, a good exemple now if you can watch a youtube or have chance to play could be the detroit become humna, the game is out and it deal a lot which what means to be machine or human with the impact of machines can have over humanity the game really looks amazing i'm start to watch some youtubers plays and the game is taking it really good.

Well in the end it's still a very sensitive case and it's not so simple like that.

now about the spoiler:

wow it gonna be really good finally we get the background of how the things ended messed like that and what APE did finally we gonna know "who is who".
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic240848_1.gif:small
Blueknight78 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-24, 17:14   Link #3197
firemagnet
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kismet-chan View Post
Preview of Epi 19 is out.

Spoiler for Thoughts:
Indeed. The thrust of this episode explicitly has to do with the origin of Klaxosaurs as well as Dr. Franxx's role in their genesis. It's not an accident here that Franxx is a shortening of Frankenstein.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wissenschaft View Post
Spoiler:

Actually, the prototype pilot bears a suspicious similarity to 9-alpha, albeit adult and gendered.

Here's what I think is going on, based on this preview. omehow, humanity began to search for a way to create immortality. In the process they created something entirely new, a creature made from outside DNA that could dramatically lengthen its own lifespan. Struck by the prospect of genuine human immortality coming within reach, they went forward and spliced human DNA with the DNA of the creatures that they had created. They created the klaxosaur princess. However, everything went wrong from there; humanity's use of magma-based energy rapidly deteriorated the environment, so the plantations were developed as mobile homes in which the newly immortal humanity would live. However, these were limited things, so the human leadership made reproductive sex taboo in order to preserve space for as many as possible. During this time the Klaxosaur princess, otherwise known as subject 01--the first successful splicing of immortal DNA and human DNA--rebels against her creators. Somehow, either by converting other humans or by another process, the klaxosaur princess raises an army and forces humanity into the plantations.
firemagnet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-24, 17:42   Link #3198
wissenschaft
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by firemagnet View Post
Indeed. The thrust of this episode explicitly has to do with the origin of Klaxosaurs as well as Dr. Franxx's role in their genesis. It's not an accident here that Franxx is a shortening of Frankenstein.




Actually, the prototype pilot bears a suspicious similarity to 9-alpha, albeit adult and gendered.

Here's what I think is going on, based on this preview. omehow, humanity began to search for a way to create immortality. In the process they created something entirely new, a creature made from outside DNA that could dramatically lengthen its own lifespan. Struck by the prospect of genuine human immortality coming within reach, they went forward and spliced human DNA with the DNA of the creatures that they had created. They created the klaxosaur princess. However, everything went wrong from there; humanity's use of magma-based energy rapidly deteriorated the environment, so the plantations were developed as mobile homes in which the newly immortal humanity would live. However, these were limited things, so the human leadership made reproductive sex taboo in order to preserve space for as many as possible. During this time the Klaxosaur princess, otherwise known as subject 01--the first successful splicing of immortal DNA and human DNA--rebels against her creators. Somehow, either by converting other humans or by another process, the klaxosaur princess raises an army and forces humanity into the plantations.
Thats a real good theory. I honestly find this show hard to predict, despite so many hints being hidden in plain sight.
__________________
wissenschaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-24, 18:03   Link #3199
Gan_HOPE326
Maddo Scientisto
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
About the "sentient", remember good part of what make us "sentient" is exactly "emotions" and feelings, if you take it away, them we not gonna be different from a "computer", them you can't really claim it's "sentient" if it can't display a real notion of what it's means, a good exemple now if you can watch a youtube or have chance to play could be the detroit become humna, the game is out and it deal a lot which what means to be machine or human with the impact of machines can have over humanity the game really looks amazing i'm start to watch some youtubers plays and the game is taking it really good.
By sentient I mean someone who "feels" in some way, that has an internal experience and an interest to live.

In fact that's why I think no complex AI or mind in general would be possible without emotions, emotions are merely things we are hardcoded to like/dislike instead of having learned or decided rationally to. One of Asimov's robots, built to not harm humans, would feel something akin to horror at the thought of killing people. It would not be a rational desire, but a fundamental instinct, hence it would feel like an emotion to him.

In general it seems to me it's just an excuse, like we do with animals, when confronted with the idea of different life forms/minds we just keep coming up with rationalisations as for why WE would be special and different, but ultimately that's it, rationalisations we make up to feel better about ourselves. We keep telling ourselves that being human is the best thing there is and that if we were any different from what we are we wouldn't really be human, so we avoid confronting the not-so-great parts of our species.
__________________
----
What if Goku was super smart and had a thing for philosophy? Find out in The Optimised Wish Project!
----

My other fanfiction can be found here.
Gan_HOPE326 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2018-05-24, 21:26   Link #3200
DragonKing0117
A Non-Awakened Prince
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA
Age: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by wissenschaft View Post
Spoiler:
The klaxosaur princess is 001. She's clearly voiced by Rie Kugimiya from the lines she spoke and the end credits of 17 lists 001 as voiced by Rie Kugimiya.
__________________

Undefeated Bahamut Chronicle Wiki - If you've read and enjoyed the series, please help out! We now have a social group!!!
Cipher J's Blog|Fan and Original Fiction Database - A blog that I recently made to serve as a backup place for all my fan/original fiction. Feel free to check it out if you like.
DragonKing0117 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.