One Piece - Chapter 781 [manga]

[itachi-san314]

this isn't supposed to be earth right? planets can have however many moons a writer wants. it doesn't have to be a mystery that needs solving

[solidguy]

I have no problem with Luffy needing help to defeat Doflamingo at all. DD and Mihawk are the top tier of the warlords so Luffy being slightly under that would be a good entry point for his power levels in the new world. Anything more than that and One Piece runs the risk of becoming like Naruto where he and Sasuke were in a completely different dimension to their allies for the entire 2nd half of the story. Remember it's not just Luffy who is going through the new world it's the straw hats aswell. If Luffy is that much stronger than his crew then they may become more of a burden than a help.

Also, although DD has been injured by Laws attacks Luffy has just finished getting quite a beat down from Bellamy himself. Saying that DD is fighting in a handicapped state is true but it is being given more weight than it should. Enel was killed and had to jump start his own heart but we don't consider Luffy's fight with him as BS because he was in an injured state.

[grey_1960]

Chapter 781
That was a good chapter I would say Law’s move would be affective but has long has the healing fairy still exists then Law’s move was in vain. Second that was kind of genius of Daflamingo to use his string power to hold himself and repair himself. If Daflamingo falls in water he could be in some very big trouble.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

The thing is, should Luffy defeat Doflamingo, his victory will be partly attributed to Law's assistance. And that's the problem some people have over here. They want Luffy to win without any help so that there's no dispute/doubt he's stronger.

Originally Posted by marvelB

Oh, I'm well aware of that. Heck, this was something people kept arguing even BEFORE the timeskip. But even back then I kept arguing that two years wouldn't be enough for Luffy to be an even match for the big leagues (in fact, I recall you making arguments similar to mine, as well). The alliances are the best bet Luffy's got to conquering the New World at this point. People gotta realize that becoming Pirate King ain't no tournament..... it's about SURVIVAL, baby!

Denial the action of declaring something to be untrue ~ Dictionary
Since the beginning of the Time Skip has Luffy(and Zoro) ever truly been defeated? Has Luffy ever faced off and struggled against anyone? Has Luffy not crushed all of his enemies with ease? If Luffy fought has bad has Law did in punk hazard and Dressrosa I would agree with you guys. But the truth is he has not. Right now in this very chapter I see only one guy stopping Daflamingo from crushing Law. On top of that Trebol just got his ass pushed aside. I feel like the people using the word denial are in their own denial of Luffy’s true power. This isn’t the first time Luffy face off against top level fighters(Shichbukai and admirals) before. I will be the first to admit that is been a pretty bad record and a long struggle with a lot of help. Two years have passed and Luffy and Zoro and done nothing but conquer their enemies. I believe if Luffy and Zoro were to ever team up against Daflamingo, it would be over kill. If Luffy has a 4th gear he doesn’t need to waste it on Daflamingo. Why? Because he is stronger then Daflamingo. Has for Law's assistance in defeating a Daflamingo. We might has well give a fly some credit for helping to distract the elephant while the lion takes it down. Question, if Trebol join Daflamingo in fighting Luffy and is defeated will that cancel out Law's assistance and can we give Luffy full credit?

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Denial the action of declaring something to be untrue ~ Dictionary
Since the beginning of the Time Skip has Luffy(and Zoro) ever truly been defeated? Has Luffy ever faced off and struggled against anyone? Has Luffy not crushed all of his enemies with ease? If Luffy fought has bad has Law did in punk hazard and Dressrosa I would agree with you guys. But the truth is he has not. Right now in this very chapter I see only one guy stopping Daflamingo from crushing Law. On top of that Trebol just got his ass pushed aside. I feel like the people using the word denial are in their own denial of Luffy’s true power. This isn’t the first time Luffy face off against top level fighters(Shichbukai and admirals) before. I will be the first to admit that is been a pretty bad record and a long struggle with a lot of help. Two years have passed and Luffy and Zoro and done nothing but conquer their enemies. I believe if Luffy and Zoro were to ever team up against Daflamingo, it would be over kill. If Luffy has a 4th gear he doesn’t need to waste it on Daflamingo. Why? Because he is stronger then Daflamingo. Has for Law's assistance in defeating a Daflamingo. We might has well give a fly some credit for helping to distract the elephant while the lion takes it down.

Since the time-skip, have Luffy and Zoro fought anyone comparable to Doflamingo? No, they haven't. The guys they've fought and defeated are trash in comparison to Doflamingo. You keep going on and on about these two being undefeated but that doesn't mean much considering their opponents weren't much to begin with.

[ZGoten]

^Exactly that. And also, the only reason Law was struggling in Punk Hazard was because he couldn't fight for real with people constantly squeezing his disembodied heart.

[imza]

I would agree that people here are seriously underestimating Luffy. Luffy hasn't really landed a clear shot on Doffy but Oda has purposely thrown distractions in the way from the central fight. It's clear Luffy fights much better when the full fight is in progress. Moreover, Luffy often pulls through against stronger enemies by his persistence and refusal to give up.

Anyways, I think this will be Luffy's hardest fight but he will take down Doffy in the end. Duffy is strong but his fear of Kaido shows that there is a huge difference between Doffy and top tier folks. Luffy barely beating Doffy here would be a good set up to get defeated by Kaido later to show that Luffy is almost top tear but not all the way there.

[grey_1960]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Since the time-skip, have Luffy and Zoro fought anyone comparable to Doflamingo? No, they haven't. The guys they've fought and defeated are trash in comparison to Doflamingo. You keep going on and on about these two being undefeated but that doesn't mean much considering their opponents weren't much to begin with.

^What level do we start calling individual characters trash?
What about the Admiral Fujitori? Zoro did pretty good, if i recall he was able to do a counter attack and push him back. Second when your trashing people like Pika (Excutive), Face off against Fujitori (Admiral), and stopping Daflamingo from hurting Law, kicking Trebol (Another executive) to the side. What can you expect? Two years ago at Saboady an admiral's minions(Kuma bots) were good enough to stop straw hats. Usually when people perform well and show they can handle things you give them more credit and expect more out of them that just my opinion. Now question if a Vice Bastilla (one of the Buster call vice admiral) and all the executives(from dalfamingo's crew), can't slow Zoro or Luffy down the who's next in line to face them? Is it me or is the trash smell starting to reach the top ranks.

[ZGoten]

Yeah, Luffy did a really good at stopping Doflamingo from hurting Law ... He's only on the verge of death and losing an arm.

Also, why do you keep bringing up the executives? They are all weaklings, all of them. The fact that they were trashed carries no weight. Your only decent argument is Zoro holding his own against Fujitora for a couple of seconds. And even that is a highly questionable point, because Zoro was clearly struggling a lot to do that, while Fujitora wasn't even trying.

[marvelB]

Ah yes, I knew you'd be challenging our arguments once again, Grey:

Originally Posted by grey_1960

Since the beginning of the Time Skip has Luffy(and Zoro) ever truly been defeated? Has Luffy ever faced off and struggled against anyone? Has Luffy not crushed all of his enemies with ease?

Putting aside Zoro, it's not like Luffy flawlessly conquered all of his post-skip opponents so far. True, he easily thrashed Hody Jones at mermaid island (despite the handicap of fighting underwater at that), but recall that he still passed out from blood loss at the end and required a transfusion from Jinbei. And of course, let's also not forget that he lost his first round against Caesar at PH as well due to underestimating his opponent. If he even had some modicum of trouble against THOSE guys, is it really a surprise that he almost literally couldn't touch Doflamingo without Law's help?

[grey_1960]

^
Thats funny since its Law who would never be alive without Luffy's help.

Originally Posted by ZGoten

Yeah, Luffy did a really good at stopping Doflamingo from hurting Law ... He's only on the verge of death and losing an arm.

Also, why do you keep bringing up the executives? They are all weaklings, all of them. The fact that they were trashed carries no weight. Your only decent argument is Zoro holding his own against Fujitora for a couple of seconds. And even that is a highly questionable point, because Zoro was clearly struggling a lot to do that, while Fujitora wasn't even trying.

Did you read the Link#47 carefully?
There is nothing in between executive and Dalfamingo. If they are all weakling and getting trashed aside what does it mean for Dalfamingo himself? Zoro holding off an admiral is pretty decent argument. After all the admirals are the Marines most powerful weapons.

[ZGoten]

It means for Doflamingo that he's not good at picking underlings. Also, Zoro did not hold off Fujitora, it was in fact the other way around. Zoro tried to save Law, but wasn't able to, because of Fujitora. "Facing off" is not the same as "holding off".

[grey_1960]

^
Paint whatever picture you want. Two years ago Admiral Kizaru wiped the floor with Zoro. Now look at Zoro he is a beast. Even Admiral Fujitori was kind enough to give zoro a compliment.

[ZGoten]

I'm just looking at the picture Oda is painting.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

There is nothing in between executive and Dalfamingo. If they are all weakling and getting trashed aside what does it mean for Dalfamingo himself?

I agree that the executives aren't weaklings. I think 1 on 1 they would beat all the SHs except luffy and zoro. And I don't think people would call the SHs weaklings as easily.

Zoro holding off an admiral is pretty decent argument. After all the admirals are the Marines most powerful weapons.

I don't think this confrontation is a good measuring stick. It's clear that neither of them were going all out. Basically, they each saw the other as too much of a fight than they wanted to have at that time. Fujitora does recognize zoro, but i dont think we know how far fujitora can go based on this. it's true we dont know how far zoro can go either, but based on the past story, i doubt it's admiral level. main point being, we just dont know from that confrontation, so there's no point in using it as a measuring stick for anything.

[noktown]

Originally Posted by marvelB

And of course, let's also not forget that he lost his first round against Caesar

Put anyone else in Luffy's shoes even Yonkos who don't know about Caesar's ability and I'm pretty sure the same thing would happen, recall Blackbeard who is right now arguably the strongest Yonko (probably got stronger too post time skip), back at Impel Down Magellan made him look like trash when he poisoned him and his whole crew and they probably would have been dead if not for the antidote that was given to them by Shiryu, using that logic you could say that Blackbeard shouldn't have been able to touch Ace since he lost to the likes of Magellan, and not just lost... was discarded as trash.

I'm not even taking the Fishman Island fights seriously, because every time they had to fight, something conveniently got in their way(Luffy was tied, Luffy was underwater, etc), just Oda's way of making the arc more interesting and not just one-sided.

Regarding this specific chapter, I kind of didn't like the way Doflamingo could stitch himself from the inside, I mean assuming that he doesn't need to see his organs to stitch(which is kind of BS), you need experience to do that, how in the world can he do it on the most delicate organs of his body and not screw up ?

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by grey_1960

^What level do we start calling individual characters trash?
What about the Admiral Fujitori? Zoro did pretty good, if i recall he was able to do a counter attack and push him back. Second when your trashing people like Pika (Excutive), Face off against Fujitori (Admiral), and stopping Daflamingo from hurting Law, kicking Trebol (Another executive) to the side. What can you expect? Two years ago at Saboady an admiral's minions(Kuma bots) were good enough to stop straw hats. Usually when people perform well and show they can handle things you give them more credit and expect more out of them that just my opinion. Now question if a Vice Bastilla (one of the Buster call vice admiral) and all the executives(from dalfamingo's crew), can't slow Zoro or Luffy down the who's next in line to face them? Is it me or is the trash smell starting to reach the top ranks.

Note that I said trash in comparison to Doflamingo. There's a difference. Lucci, for example, was acknowledged by the WG as a valuable asset and even received praise from the buster call VA's and Kuma himself. But he's no big deal at all when compared to other adversaries we've seen. It's all relative.

Originally Posted by grey_1960

There is nothing in between executive and Dalfamingo. If they are all weakling and getting trashed aside what does it mean for Dalfamingo himself?

It just means that Doflamingo is THAT much stronger than his subordinates. Nothing more, nothing less.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by noktown

recall Blackbeard who is right now arguably the strongest Yonko (probably got stronger too post time skip), back at Impel Down Magellan made him look like trash when he poisoned him and his whole crew and they probably would have been dead if not for the antidote that was given to them by Shiryu, using that logic you could say that Blackbeard shouldn't have been able to touch Ace since he lost to the likes of Magellan, and not just lost... was discarded as trash.

that wasn't a normal fight. blackbeard didnt even try and he did so on purpose. his plan was to make magellan think he was dead so that magellan would forget about him and he'd be able to free the strongest people in impel down for his crew.

[Gintokifan22]

I'm one of those fans who has never underestimated Luffy, matter of fact it's been the exact opposite for me, I've always overrated him and looked forward to seeing his fights and grow. He's been my favorite character since episode one and I'm still a supporter of his however since PH arc started I've been Extremlly disapointed. Even in Fisherman Island I was Proude of his feats, accomplishing all of what he did under water some thing he always had trouble with or any other devil fruit user, I was really impressed.

PH arc and onwards since hasn't been looking so good, I was ok with PH cuz what's his name wasn't big fish yet and he had tricks up his sleeves to made it work in his favor, by tricks I mean sneak attacks on Luffy during those fights.

I'll still try to stomach these up coming fights of his, it's just with Dof getting this handi cap, not giving it 100 % of his against Luffy and that was due to an attack by Law not Luffy or any of his crew members. It just feels cheap and with Sabo or Law, two people with the most haxed devil fruit on the side still who could interfere at any moment if Luffy's at the end of his rope like what happened with Luffy V.S Lucci, takes away a lot of the fun and Excitment and danger elements we had pre time skip / Fisherman Island days.

I was actually good with Luffy this arc till his fight with Bellamy, than that one shot happened and I was cool cuz I understood why it happened or tried to. So yah, the one thing that ripped all the fun out of this fight for me was Law doing major damage against Dof causing this to feel less like a win for Luffy, this guy was supposed to be the first real fight for Luffy too Time skip wise and I feel should have delt with him alone, along side with his crew of course to show what they have been doing for two years worth of training and impress ( shock ) The entire world with this.

Oh I'll still see what's up, I hear Gear 4 has been confirmed by Oda from an interview of his, I am curious but let down at the same time.

[Belise]

Originally Posted by Gintokifan22

I'll still try to stomach these up coming fights of his, it's just with Dof getting this handi cap, not giving it 100 % of his against Luffy and that was due to an attack by Law not Luffy or any of his crew members. It just feels cheap and with Sabo or Law, two people with the most haxed devil fruit on the side still who could interfere at any moment if Luffy's at the end of his rope like what happened with Luffy V.S Lucci, takes away a lot of the fun and Excitment and danger elements we had pre time skip / Fisherman Island days.

That's the spirit. Just watch and wait it out. You might be surprised with the ending. Or maybe you just won't mind this kind of thing so much in the future.

*side note - Guys I feel like instead of leaning towards more of what we actually enjoy in these chapters, the bulk of the posts are about arguments full of staunch opinions and over analysis. Not that you can't say what you want. But it's so much more enjoyable when you're getting amped about what has/will go down in the fight. Kinda depressing imo >_>

Gintokifan22, I'm stomaching all this till Oda gets to the more interesting stuff. Not that Dressrosa isn't cool. But the highlight of the whole arc - Doffy vs.Luffy - has yet to fully take place. Thus I'm mostly reserved atm. But there's plenty of danger and excitement more ahead of this arc. Like when they go into space later. Coincidentally, Monet was researching space/astronomy in Punk Hazard either for Doffy or herself.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

that wasn't a normal fight. blackbeard didnt even try and he did so on purpose. his plan was to make magellan think he was dead so that magellan would forget about him and he'd be able to free the strongest people in impel down for his crew.

Yes Blackbeard planned to free the level 6 prisoners but he didn't plan on nearly getting killed by Magellan. That attack took him completely by surprised and it was pure luck that he found someone willing to get him an antidote.