One Piece - Chapter 786 [manga]

[solidguy]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

I don't care how Oda and most people view it.

What is the condition to win the fight? Is it a slug fest of raw power? Or do you consider the context of why Doff and Luffy are fighting? Luffy's objective isn't to win a fight against Doflamingo. Luffy's objective is to stop the bird cage and free Dressrosa. In this regard whoever fulfills their win condition should be viewed as the winner of the fight. If Luffy stops Doffs plan then he wins

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by solidguy

What is the condition to win the fight?

beating Mingo unconscious and ending the birdcage. how could this be a mystery to you?

The fact that Mingo isn't defeated and Luffy needs help is the condition that Mingo won the fight.

Or do you consider the context of why Doff and Luffy are fighting? Luffy's objective isn't to win a fight against Doflamingo. Luffy's objective is to stop the bird cage and free Dressrosa. In this regard whoever fulfills their win condition should be viewed as the winner of the fight. If Luffy stops Doffs plan then he wins

Luffy's objective is and has been to beat Doflamingo. He's fighting for vengeance over what he did to Law, Bellamy and everyone in Dressrosa. Stopping the Birdcage and freeing people are side-effects of him winning the fight. To think that Luffy would be fine with escaping Mingo as long as the birdcage was destroyed and the people are somehow safe is to not know Luffy's character. He's too prideful and hard-headed to give up on a declaration of beating someone. For reference, just refer to every boss fight he's had in the story. His primary objective is always knocking them out.

[Ravagerblade]

^ Would you call Gohan Losing the fight to Super Cell? He had to have help too.

[P_Dezz]

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

^ Would you call Gohan Losing the fight to Super Cell? He had to have help too.

Well that's not really a fair comparison, Gohan was stronger than Cell regardless of anything, he really just needed a confidence boost. The dbz fight I would compare this one with was what previously mentioned which is the SSJ3 Goku vs Kid Buu fight. Goku gased out and needed help to regain his energy.

[Ravagerblade]

^ I still got my point a crossed. But yes the latter fits more appropriately.

[JonSnow]

MarvelB should make a new thread.
787 spoiler is already out.

[imza]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

beating Mingo unconscious and ending the birdcage. how could this be a mystery to you?

The fact that Mingo isn't defeated and Luffy needs help is the condition that Mingo won the fight.

Luffy's objective is and has been to beat Doflamingo. He's fighting for vengeance over what he did to Law, Bellamy and everyone in Dressrosa. Stopping the Birdcage and freeing people are side-effects of him winning the fight. To think that Luffy would be fine with escaping Mingo as long as the birdcage was destroyed and the people are somehow safe is to not know Luffy's character. He's too prideful and hard-headed to give up on a declaration of beating someone. For reference, just refer to every boss fight he's had in the story. His primary objective is always knocking them out.

Since we keep going in circles, I'll take another spin at the wheel. This argument seems to me to be trivial in the sense that there is no question Doflamingo is stronger than Luffy but Luffy almost always needs help to win his fights against his opponents. However, it is very clear that Oda considers his ability to garner help as part of Luffy's ability, as much as his rubber man fruit. So to say that Luffy lost the fight even after he knocks out Doflamingo, Crocodile, and Lucci is a bit silly.

[ZGoten]

Team Luffy vs Team Doflamingo -- who will prevail? Find out tomorrow on AnimeSuki!

[ZGoten]

Way to ruin my mood, philip72, thanks for that.
Just kidding. I don't see any message regarding that in the chapter, though, but maybe you're right.

[Belise]

He wouldn't...

[imza]

Originally Posted by philip72

This week is Oda's break week, isn't it?

Considering that spoilers are out already, I doubt this is an off week.

[marvelB]

Okay, here's the new thread! My bad for the lateness.... the spoiler came out a bit earlier than expected, heh.

[ri0]

Wowzi, I just realized, my former reply wasn´t posted.

Alright, here we go again: noktown, I sincerely believe we have a completely different view on this whole thing (or we really read a different manga).

Regarding your last post, adressed to me ( https://forums.animesuki.com/showthr...15#post5537715 ): I don´t really understand why you end my quote mid sentence, other than cause you don´t really know what to reply. Otherwise I really am confused, if I should take this debate still seriously.

For the rest...
The damage hawk did, if we can trust Dr. Law on this one, was not significant, as he said so right after it landed.

Furthermore, Trebol didn´t stop Luffy, it was Mingo himself who evaded Luffy´s consecutive attacks and launched a counter. Trebol did literally nothing, except holding Luffy down, so Doflamingo could kill off Law.

Chapter 783. Now that´s where it gets tricky! You try to tell me, that in this chapter there was an equal fight going on. The chapter where Mingo mocked Luffy for his weak attacks and after the saving of Law, Luffy got one attack in and Mingo landed several? The chapter where Luffy, lying on the ground, staring at Mingo aggressivly realizes (and I trust him on his opinion) that he can´t beat Mingo in time if things continue like this?

And lastly the damage-thing. Of course, Luffy did it to himself, but as said above, because he had no chance. It doesn´t matter if it was self-inflicted. If he can´t beat him otherwise or handle his power-up, it just means that the enemy is stronger - simple as that.


My view on this:
Let´s say, for argument´s sake, both contestant were equally tired or damaged, cause of previous fights, interference by 3rd parties, or what else was going on that day. I believe Mingo had more on his hands (as noktown already pointed out, the only real damage Luffy received so far, he did to himself), but let´s just assume it is equalled.

May it be through means of power, tactical skill, bad decision making on one side or whatever reason, that could let you win a fight... Right now (!), one of them is standing and smiling, ready to kill the other, while the latter needs to be carried around, cause he was unable to walk and other people are helping him right now. Isn´t it obvious, who won?

By the way - my guess for Doflamingo´s downfall will be his cockiness, as he should just instantly run to Luffy and finish him off. There is not much more to make him more angry and make him fall for a taunt or sudden rage all-in, so I guess he will just play around too much and pay for it lataaa.


EDIT: Just saw this..

Originally Posted by ZGoten

Team Luffy vs Team Doflamingo -- who will prevail? Find out tomorrow on AnimeSuki!

Hilarious

[noktown]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

this is a good example of how you've been coming up with theories based on untrue "facts". simply put, the Birdcage closing completely in 1 hour does not mean that 1 hour is the time limit to beat Mingo. plenty of people would die before then.

So how does it make Luffy weaker ? Do you even read what you're saying ?
So Luffy took a risk transforming because he wanted to save the people, how does that make him weaker than Doflamingo, had there not been a bridcage case, there would have been no need to transform.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

oh this is the internet? please. we're all strangers who happen to like to talk about anime. nobody's forcing you to reply to my posts after all. I guess you're trying to change the subject

You quoted me, challenging my point of view, of course I will respond.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

and can you explain how that isn't less than or equal to Law's interference? do you have a manga chapter reference?

Can you ? Please, if you're running out of valid points, there's no need to post.

I'm just merely pointing out that there had been interference from both sides.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

again you fail to see your own contradiction. You say that Doffy has hax abilities to heal from internal damage so easily, but it's perfectly normal for Luffy to have ungodly endurance and the highest pain threshold imaginable. it's normal for a person to be able to take that many of Iva's hormone shots and make it through Impel Down and Marine Ford. That's completely normal amounts of endurance and not hax stamina

Thank you for confirming my point that real life to one piece comparisons (in terms of taking damage), don't mean shit, and Luffy and Dofla were in equal condition even after taking damage from Law.

Originally Posted by necrolyte

As you wanted I will give you the exact page where DD's saying that Luffy's atacks don't hurt him.

That's fine, but Luffy's attacks do hurt him as we have seen during the first encounter where Luffy's Hawkeye made Dofla spit blood, or where Trebol had to interfere to save Dofla from Luffy's magnum attack, Dofla can boast all he wants.



Edit***

This is getting tiring responding to everyone.

Originally Posted by ri0

Wowzi, I just realized, my former reply wasn´t posted.

Alright, here we go again: noktown, I sincerely believe we have a completely different view on this whole thing (or we really read a different manga).

Regarding your last post, adressed to me ( https://forums.animesuki.com/showthr...15#post5537715 ): I don´t really understand why you end my quote mid sentence, other than cause you don´t really know what to reply. Otherwise I really am confused, if I should take this debate still seriously.

For the rest...
The damage hawk did, if we can trust Dr. Law on this one, was not significant, as he said so right after it landed.

Furthermore, Trebol didn´t stop Luffy, it was Mingo himself who evaded Luffy´s consecutive attacks and launched a counter. Trebol did literally nothing, except holding Luffy down, so Doflamingo could kill off Law.

Chapter 783. Now that´s where it gets tricky! You try to tell me, that in this chapter there was an equal fight going on. The chapter where Mingo mocked Luffy for his weak attacks and after the saving of Law, Luffy got one attack in and Mingo landed several? The chapter where Luffy, lying on the ground, staring at Mingo aggressivly realizes (and I trust him on his opinion) that he can´t beat Mingo in time if things continue like this?

And lastly the damage-thing. Of course, Luffy did it to himself, but as said above, because he had no chance. It doesn´t matter if it was self-inflicted. If he can´t beat him otherwise or handle his power-up, it just means that the enemy is stronger - simple as that.


My view on this:
Let´s say, for argument´s sake, both contestant were equally tired or damaged, cause of previous fights, interference by 3rd parties, or what else was going on that day. I believe Mingo had more on his hands (as noktown already pointed out, the only real damage Luffy received so far, he did to himself), but let´s just assume it is equalled.

May it be through means of power, tactical skill, bad decision making on one side or whatever reason, that could let you win a fight... Right now (!), one of them is standing and smiling, ready to kill the other, while the latter needs to be carried around, cause he was unable to walk and other people are helping him right now. Isn´t it obvious, who won?

By the way - my guess for Doflamingo´s downfall will be his cockiness, as he should just instantly run to Luffy and finish him off. There is not much more to make him more angry and make him fall for a taunt or sudden rage all-in, so I guess he will just play around too much and pay for it lataaa.


EDIT: Just saw this.. Hilarious

I'll just make a general respons, because I'm getting tired of quoting sentences.

1) Of Course Hawkeye is not going to KO Doflamingo, but it did damage, Luffy got up from Dofla's Kick too, so does that mean Luffy should boast how Dofla's attacks don't do crap to him ?

2) 783 was more of Dofla's dominance, 782 was Luffy's, before he got stopped by Trebol, I'm not arguing that he's stronger than Dofla in his non gear 4th forms, but at the least equal, at most stronger, also gear 4th pretty much proves that Luffy is at least equal to Dofla, because he totally dominated and destroyed him in Gear 4th, yet during his fight with Lucci, it was obvious that he was weaker in his non gear forms, as only during his gear 2nd/3rd transformation did he manage to touch Lucci.

3) The transformation was not needed, he only trasnformed because of the bird cage.

[ri0]

Originally Posted by noktown

I'll just make a general respons, because I'm getting tired of quoting sentences.

1) Of Course Hawkeye is not going to KO Doflamingo, but it did damage, Luffy got up from Dofla's Kick too, so does that mean Luffy should boast how Dofla's attacks don't do crap to him ?

2) 783 was more of Dofla's dominance, 782 was Luffy's, before he got stopped by Trebol, I'm not arguing that he's stronger than Dofla in his non gear 4th forms, but at the least equal, at most stronger, also gear 4th pretty much proves that Luffy is at least equal to Dofla, because he totally dominated and destroyed him in Gear 4th, yet during his fight with Lucci, it was obvious that he was weaker in his non gear forms, as only during his gear 2nd/3rd transformation did he manage to touch Lucci.

3) The transformation was not needed, he only trasnformed because of the bird cage.

1) Never said that. You brought in Hawk, to disprove me saying that Luffy dealt no real to Mingo. I simply gave Law´s view on this... he clearly said that Mingo is still alright, hence Hawk did no significant damage.

2) Did you even consider reading my post? Trebol DID NOT STOP Luffy. Doflamingo DID IT!
And Gear 4th showed one thing: Luffy can bash Mingo around. But he sustains it, Luffy runs out of gas and BAM, he can kill him.

3) And the Birdcage was being activated and is still kept upheld by whom?


I believe Mingo was stronger in this fight, even though the gap is not that big. I posted the reasons in my last post at the end and I will let this go now...

[solidguy]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

Stopping the Birdcage and freeing people are side-effects of him winning the fight. To think that Luffy would be fine with escaping Mingo as long as the birdcage was destroyed and the people are somehow safe is to not know Luffy's character. He's too prideful and hard-headed to give up on a declaration of beating someone. For reference, just refer to every boss fight he's had in the story. His primary objective is always knocking them out.

I fundamentally disagree with you on this point. Although we've had instances of Luffy fighting out of vengeance (Arlong) by and large Luffy has fought out of a sense of justice for the people and to protect them. From Don Krieg to Crocodile to rescuing Robin right down to Caesar Clown, each time Luffy fights as a means to another goal not as the end condition. Eneru was about to destroy Sky Island, Luffy defeated him to prevent that. Hody Jones wanted to kill the merman king, Luffy defeated him to prevent that.

Although Luffy may fight with pride and 'hard-headedness' it is not what motivates him. What motivates him is his inclination to do the right thing and see justice done in the world which is why he would make a fantastic pirate king. I'm sure if Crocodile lost hope and left Alabasta alone Luffy wouldn't chase him down to the ends of the earth to knock him out...thus his primary objective is not to knock someone out it's to neutralize the threat.

edit: forgot to post in the new thread