What do you hate about anime?

[LC]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I'd actually be interested in trying to figure out if Kyoto Animation made any changes to K-On! when adapting it into an anime that would make it more appealing to a female audience - it's one of the few shows of this type that has a female director that I'm aware of.

They actually made several changes. The manga has more fanservice. For example, Mio's pantsu were actually shown in the concert scene. The anime tones this and other scenes down considerably. Tsumugi's...tendencies are also taken down a notch. It's interesting to know that K-On! has a female director; that certainly explains the differences between the anime and manga.

As for what I dislike about anime, it would definitely have to be gratuitious fanservice. Most anime I've seen just have to insert some fanservice, but it adds nothing to the show most of the time.

I also dislike indecisive leads in romance series. I'm a rabid shipper, so it just frustrates me to no end.

[krko]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I'd actually be interested in trying to figure out if Kyoto Animation made any changes to K-On! when adapting it into an anime that would make it more appealing to a female audience - it's one of the few shows of this type that has a female director that I'm aware of.

I think they did. Most of the changes from the manga serve to make the anime tamer. In particular, all of the pantyshots were removed(resulting in a very infamous scene), not that there were many in the first place. They also cut out some the racier chapters. (Mio in a nurse outfit, for one)

[qwertqwert8989]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Despite the stereotypes about the kind of person who watches K-On, the show is actually hugely popular with female anime fans in Japan as well as male ones

An oft-repeated statistic that should probably be clarified: it originated in a survey on an matchmaking site for hardcore otakus, the result of which was paraded and discussed on blogs as if it was a national poll of great significance to understanding the female mind, rather the tastes of a small, hyper specific sample group.

Originally Posted by Flame Haze

As for what I dislike about anime, it would definitely have to be gratuitious fanservice. Most anime I've seen just have to insert some fanservice, but it adds nothing to the show most of the time.

Like I said to the last guy, the problem here is with assumiung that moe and hentai game adaptations are the entirety of "anime" when they are just a concentrated (but well known) group.....Anime directors play to the crowd....I don't recall seeing a speck of fanservice in either Noitamina show this season. Don't understand why people complain about a problem that has a remedy.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by qwertqwert8989

An oft-repeated statistic that should probably be clarified: it originated in a survey on an matchmaking site for hardcore otakus, the result of which was paraded and discussed on blogs as if it was a national poll of great significance, rather the tastes of a small, hyper specific sample group.

Actually, K-On! also ranked second in the most recent survey I've seen from a magazine targeted at female anime fans. Of course, it's not a general population survey - the list is also rather heavy on the bishounen stuff I doubt the average women watches either - but that's why I specified they were anime fans rather than the population at large.

(The general rule appears to be that stuff like K-On!/Angel Beats/Working is popular with female anime fans, while ecchi stuff isn't. Which is totally unsurprising to me since it mirrors my experiences with the western anime fandom.)

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by felix

Does your vocabulary actually have other words besides moe?

Felix, I know that I haven't posted here that much over the past two or three months, but I've been pretty open about how I usually like moe.

Why then do you think that I'm using the term "moe" in a derogatory way?

I'm just using "moe" the same way people might use "shonen", or "ecchi", or "shojo", or "slice of life". I'm using it in a very neutral descriptive way.

For example, I'd also say that Bleach (an anime that I liked the non-filler portions of) is 100% pure concentrated shonen. I'm not saying that to insult Bleach, I'm just being honest about what it is, imo.

I don't see the point in denying the blatantly obvious.

Contrary to your flawed reasoning the characters actually talk in the show (wow, surprise!).

Where did I say that the characters don't talk in K-On!?

"Moe" is not mutually exclusive with character conversation. Conversation can be "cute", or amusing, in and of itself.

You'll have known dialog is 90% of what the show is all about if you actually bothered watching it (which I'm guessing you didn't; beyond 1 episode or something anyway).

I watched almost all of the first season.

I did a blog review of it here.

Now, I'm not a big fan of K-On!, but I didn't hate it either. I found it Ok.

My main disappointment with it had nothing to do with moe, per se. I would have preferred to see the band play a bit more, that's all.

Clannad had Tomoya, K-on has every damn character in the show, as far as humor goes. Sorry but no sane studio actually gives a damn about material for people who blatantly hate the show! I fail to see the point you're trying to make besides excuses for jerking off about it more.

You don't even have a clear definition of the word "moe."

"Cute girls doing cute things" might not be the whole of what moe means, but if you have that much, then you have moe. And K-On! is absolutely loaded with cute girls doing cute things (which can include humorous conversation). The five main characters are all fairly moe girls (especially Yui). The supporting cast is made up of other female characters. IIRC, there's not one male character in the show.

Now, there's nothing inherently wrong with somebody liking a show largely or entirely about cute girls doing cute things. I often find it cute or amusing or pleasantly lighthearted myself.

But if somebody doesn't like that, then K-On! probably isn't for them. That's all I'm saying.

It's kind of like saying if somebody doesn't like ecchi or sexual fanservice, then Ikki Tousen is probably not for them. Yes, there is an actual serious plot to Ikki Tousen, but the viewer who dislikes ecchi will be too distracted by the ecchi to really get into that plot, at least in many cases.


If your taste in anime leaves K-On! has one of your favorites, that's fine. K-On! is great at what it does.


All of this being said, I apologize if I gave you the wrong impression.

I don't see the term "moe" as inherently insulting. "Moeblob" sounds a bit insulting to me, yes, but "moe" comes across as more neutral to me.

[qwertyuiopz]

when the subs call congee porrige
i get incredibly angered :@:@:@:@

[felix]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Felix, I know that I haven't posted here that much over the past two or three months, but I've been pretty open about how I usually like moe.

Why then do you think that I'm using the term "moe" in a derogatory way?

I don't care. No really, I heard some people (children) like eating charcoal. Just because you like/hate it doesn't make a difference to the argument.

And I think you're using it to troll. Simply put you just pretend (and claim) all your ideas and thoughts are expressed by that one ambiguous word and then stick it into any "I hate..." (or similar) sentence. The rest of us are then expected to mind-read what you're trying to say.

A simple reference example. We'll assume the target show is X, and it is of the tragedy, drama, dark slice of life, etc genre.

Originally Posted by Example

I think that X gets a lot of hate because its pure, 100%, concentrated nae.

That is the entire show, more or less.

Now, I'm not saying that to be critical, as I myself tend to like nae.

But I'm saying it because, for the nae haters, this show has nothing that can appeal to them. The nae hater really would be better off simply not watching it.

Even [insert other show I hate], for example, has its non-nae scenes. Scenes, for example, of [insert something random, from the other show]. For the nae hater, these scenes can provide welcomed breaks from the nae-ness.

But X is just pure nae from start to finish.

I'm sure you know what nae means since you assume we have a clue what moe means. You can then take this template and stick it in every single show out there. After all you're not talking about the show in the template, at most you're making a reference to some other show. Its so wonderful this completely ambiguous argument that can be spammed everywhere, isn't it.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm just using "moe" the same way people might use "shonen", or "ecchi", or "shojo", or "slice of life". I'm using it in a very neutral descriptive way.

Unfortunately as Vexx pointed out "moe" is not even meant to be used the way you're using it. And words are not equal in meaning to each other. Sadly I fear your understanding and use of the words is some obscure jargon... (see next quote)

Originally Posted by Triple_R

For example, I'd also say that Bleach (an anime that I liked the non-filler portions of) is 100% pure concentrated shonen. I'm not saying that to insult Bleach, I'm just being honest about what it is, imo.

You just said...

For example, I'd also say that Bleach (an anime that I liked the non-filler portions of) is 100% pure concentrated [show for young boys].

As I've been pointing out the past pages, using these words simply makes your sentences ambiguous, if not completely nonsensical. And the term "shōnen" has a pretty damn clear meaning too. Even the word itself (as the non-genre) is weird in your context. Don't get me wrong, I'm not stupid, I know you have some misconception of the meaning of the word, and what you really wanted to say was:

For example, I'd also say that Bleach (an anime that I liked the non-filler portions of) is 100% pure concentrated [action].

I know you wrote "shonen" to act kawaii, and because that's the language you speak too.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Where did I say that the characters don't talk in K-On!?

"Moe" is not mutually exclusive with character conversation. Conversation can be "cute", or amusing, in and of itself.

Sorry for reading your one-word paragraph wrong. I assumed you're using english jargon of the the otaku jargon for the word moe. But apparently its some jargon on top of jargon on top of jargon. Also, you have a contradiction. You all are arguing how K-on has nothing, but moe, yet now you're acknowledging to me there's character development. So which is it?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

My main disappointment with it had nothing to do with moe, per se. I would have preferred to see the band play a bit more, that's all.

And its a sin to write a complain about it like that? Look how thoughtful that sounds. Heck, I even agree with you.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

"Cute girls doing cute things" might not be the whole of what moe means, but if you have that much, then you have moe. And K-On! is absolutely loaded with cute girls doing cute things (which can include humorous conversation). The five main characters are all fairly moe girls (especially Yui).

Like I said you seem to have you're own version of the word.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But if somebody doesn't like that, then K-On! probably isn't for them. That's all I'm saying.

It's kind of like saying if somebody doesn't like ecchi or sexual fanservice, then Ikki Tousen is probably not for them. Yes, there is an actual serious plot to Ikki Tousen, but the viewer who dislikes ecchi will be too distracted by the ecchi to really get into that plot, at least in many cases.

If your taste in anime leaves K-On! has one of your favorites, that's fine. K-On! is great at what it does.

Echii can be easily replaced with sexy, perverted or sexual harassment in proper context. There's no need to explicitly use the word etchii. In fact it probably more clear to not use it. Since its not a english word there's no correlation to how severe it is or not.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't see the term "moe" as inherently insulting. "Moeblob" sounds a bit insulting to me, yes, but "moe" comes across as more neutral to me.

My problem is the arguments (which is typically where its used) make no sense. Spam is not insulting, that doesn't mean its not bad.


Here's the big irony in all that you are saying: You are telling me you are too intellectual (or whatever) to like cute stuff. Yet, 90% of your talkdown on K-on is comprised of you trying to act cute/moe~ using otaku jargon. In essence you are a walking example [based on the logic of your own assessments] of the thing you are talking down on.

=================================================

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Well I think you got my point. How am I as a foreigner then supposed to conveniently explain terms such as "hikkomori?"

Not really. Just explain them as withdrawn or use more then one word. If you can't formulate it into english, how did you ever come to understand it to begin with.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I understand that misuse of terms may bother you, but usually when trying to describe vague ideas, we use vague terms in general. I can't tell you how many "mary sue" debates I've seen in my life.

That's such a convenient excuse. I don't care if you have some clear idea in your head. If you throw out nonsense, your idea is going to come out as nonsense, regardless of how well you have it thought out in your head. I'm not a mind reader, I can only read what you write.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

If you don't understand the word usage of someone, then just ask them to clarify it, since it is not just in one language that we run into problems with definitions and meanings of certain words.

Actually, I've asked several times here. And I believe this has been [at the very least] implied time and time again in most arguments on this topic.

The problem is partly due to you using a word with no direct equivalent. You called it vague didn't you, so obviously you have no clue what your sentence means either. The other examples you gave are easily replaced in a sentece, so they are more akin to you using some shorthand (ie. NASA instead of National Aeronautics and Space Administration) rather then [in the case of "moe"] a alien word.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Its popularity leads to the bitterness of some fans because they might feel that the shows they like are not being made or being given a lot of attention because of a show like this that displeases them. They want a show that fits their tastes to be popular over what is currently popular.

This sometimes end up being funny, because as animeboy12 pointed out above, the haters sometimes exceed the fans of the shows that the haters supposedly want to see at times.

Well in the K-on! episode 1 thread there were 11 people who rate it Average or lower and 101 who rated it Good or higher. DVD sales and popularity polls would also suggest there is no overwhelming hating side for the show (at least not statistically) that you speak of. Not that it means much. Your bunch does seem to be the really revolted and noisy on forums about it regardless.

I'm not too sure about what shows you're referring to. The only shows Kyoani has even made outside the love/psychological/school genre are Munto and FMA. Both of which are done.

Kyoani is not gonna do some next Gundam series or some Bleach/Naruto. The company has been pretty straight forward with the shows it wants to do, and its worked out pretty well for them till now. They also have no logical reason to experiment with "the other types" when other companies already do that. The few exceptions (Munto, FMP) are that, exceptions. And even FMP was parodied. I guess you can expect whoever does Gundam now to go and make some random original love story but I wouldn't recommend having the same hopes for Kyoani to make some Gundam story. Though I suppose anything is possible.

But lets assume those hopes have some basis [I'm not aware of]. How is it productive to hate on the company for making something profitable? Take a clear example like WoW. Because of its success Blizzard is at the moment producing four games (Cataclysm, Diablo III, Starcraft II and a nextgeneration MMO) whereas they would in the past be producing just one. As I see it, the more success the company has, the better chance for more quantity and better quality.

Incidently (just so the argument doesn't skew into something it shouldn't), the next series that will most likely be produced by Kyoani, [and that we are aware of,] is Nichijou (comedy/school/slice of life manga). So if you had some hope for some sci-fi/shonen/action something, sorry unlikely to happen.

[Kameruka]

Not to anime but to its industry itself. I frickin tired to see too many 13 episodes shows flooded the market. Most of them are harem/ecchi/fanservice shows that are never great to begin with. Some of them may good but I don't think they are worth to watch over and over again. Okay, what the most recent harem/fanservice/ecchi shows in past 2 seasons? Kampfer, Nyan-Koi, Omamori Himari, Seikon no Qwaser, Kis x Sis, any Koihime Musou series and list will go on. I don't any of these shows appeal to anyone except some Japanese teenage boys and young men, which obviously their main target audiences. I don't see how they can contribute to the industry except to milk money out from these people. Blame those evil Japanese businessmen and businesswomen for overloading this industry with such craps.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by felix

And I think you're using it to troll. Simply put you just pretend (and claim) all your ideas and thoughts are expressed by that one ambiguous word and then stick it into any "I hate..." (or similar) sentence. The rest of us are then expected to mind-read what you're trying to say.

Yes, because all people who use an ambiguous but common within a certain subculture word do it to troll.

He's using the term "moe show" to refer to a show with a heavy emphasis on the cuteness of it's female characters, which is a generally accepted convention for what "moe show" means and nothing new.

Originally Posted by felix

I know you wrote "shonen" to act kawaii, and because that's the language you speak too.

Dude, where are you getting these ideas?

Originally Posted by felix

Here's the big irony in all that you are saying: You are telling me you are too intellectual (or whatever) to like cute stuff.

Because Kotomi Ichinose fans are all too intellectual to like cute stuff, right?

[felix]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Yes, because all people who use an ambiguous but common within a certain subculture word do it to troll.

He's using the term "moe show" to refer to a show with a heavy emphasis on the cuteness of it's female characters, which is a generally accepted convention for what "moe show" means and nothing new.

No. He's using it as the premise and conclusion to his argument. Its not like he has a argument and the word just happens to be in one sentences.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Dude, where are you getting these ideas?

His speach in a earlier posts sounds exactly like that, only "kawaii" is replaced with "moe." No difference as far as I'm concern.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Because Kotomi Ichinose fans are all too intellectual to like cute stuff, right?

Well that was random. No comment.

[Samurai dono]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think that K-On! gets a lot of hate because its pure, 100%, concentrated moe.

That is the entire show, more or less.

Now, I'm not saying that to be critical, as I myself tend to like moe.

But I'm saying it because, for the moe haters, this show has nothing that can appeal to them. The moe hater really would be better off simply not watching it.

Even Clannad, for example, has its non-moe scenes. Scenes, for example, of Tomoya joking around with Sunohara. For the moe hater, these scenes can provide welcomed breaks from the moe-ness.

But K-On! is just pure moe from start to finish.

Spot on!

Originally Posted by Triple_R

One thing I think that we anime fans need to come to grips with is that while we're all anime fans, our tastes and interests beyond that can wildly diverge.

Just because an anime series becomes a hit, or a cult classic, doesn't mean that every anime fan will like it, or even that every anime fan should like it. It's not so much as Sturgeon's Law is correct, it's that the personal tastes of many individual people will render 90% of shows unappealing to them. Those 90% of shows aren't necessarily crap, as much as they're simply not for everybody.

As the old saying goes, there's no accounting for taste.

For some reason, subsconciously, poeple can't accept that the show they didn't like was a good, well made show .. and that the cars they grew up loving, are badly made cheap cars .. and so they start nitpicking in a despetrate attempt to prove to themselves first, and everyone else thereafter, that their tastes meet the universal standard of said field perfection.

I don't know why some of us can't make piece with the idea that I'm allowed to like a show that was badly made - and since I'm not an art cretic it shouldn't offend my intelligence. AND am allowed to dislike a perfectly made show, simply because it didn't meet my taste, or tug on their right strings, as they say.

Originally Posted by felix

Does your vocabulary actually have other words besides moe? Contrary to your flawed reasoning the characters actually talk in the show (wow, surprise!). You'll have known dialog is 90% of what the show is all about if you actually bothered watching it (which I'm guessing you didn't; beyond 1 episode or something anyway). Clannad had Tomoya, K-on has every damn character in the show, as far as humor goes. Sorry but no sane studio actually gives a damn about material for people who blatantly hate the show! I fail to see the point you're trying to make besides excuses for jerking off about it more.

You don't even have a clear definition of the word "moe." I mean how could you, the word itself is by definition a "inexpressible" feeling. Yet here you are waving it around to support your hate this, hate that, hate everything.

Funny how people who use the word "taste" are pretty much the only ones to actually blindly use it, as well as preach about "their superior taste" to others. I don't understand all this preaching to K-on fans. Are we the ones who go out of our way to go to sections of other anime and ditch on them? When the heck has anyone even labeled K-on some masterpiece or something (like Suzumiya Haruhi, Legened of the Galactic Heroes, Ghost in the Shell have). Heck you even have borderline shows like Qwaser and Queen's Blade, and tons of crappy shows out there I can't even begin to count, and yet they don't get this much crap.

I believe all the rage you're getting in some other subforum has ignited you and launched you here. I don't care much about the K-ON! argument, but I believe the rocket targetting system was tremendously flawed - Triple_R is the last member you want to preach about "hate".

Originally Posted by felix

And I think you're using it to troll. Simply put you just pretend (and claim) all your ideas and thoughts are expressed by that one ambiguous word and then stick it into any "I hate..." (or similar) sentence. The rest of us are then expected to mind-read what you're trying to say.

How come everyone else here "mind-read" the guy's comment positively except you .. ?

[Triple_R]

Ok, Felix, I can tell that you're simply not comfortable with the idea of K-On! being viewed as a "moe show", even when the person calling it a "moe show" likes moe himself.

Fair enough.

I myself think that, for all the semantic arguments that we anime fans sometimes like to get into, most anime fans really do have a fairly good idea of what "moe" means, and hence the term is effective shorthand for conveying a certain idea about a character or a show.


Also, just to avoid further misunderstanding, Clannad and Clannad: After Story are two of my favorite animes ever. Quite possibly in my Top 10 of all time.

People reading your 'nae' analogy might get the wrong impression there, and I want to clear that up immediately. I very much liked Clannad.

I'm also a big Kotomi Kotomi Ichinose fan, to back up 0utf0xZer0's point there.



That will probably be my final point on the K-On! and moe discussion.

[krko]

Originally Posted by Kameruka

Not to anime but to its industry itself. I frickin tired to see too many 13 episodes shows flooded the market. Most of them are harem/ecchi/fanservice shows that are never great to begin with. Some of them may good but I don't think they are worth to watch over and over again. Okay, what the most recent harem/fanservice/ecchi shows in past 2 seasons? Kampfer, Nyan-Koi, Omamori Himari, Seikon no Qwaser, Kis x Sis, any Koihime Musou series and list will go on. I don't any of these shows appeal to anyone except some Japanese teenage boys and young men, which obviously their main target audiences. I don't see how they can contribute to the industry except to milk money out from these people. Blame those evil Japanese businessmen and businesswomen for overloading this industry with such craps.

Those shows are just signs of the times. When someone approaches you to animate some lowest common denominator manga, most of the time its a choice between that or starve, so you animate them. Its just like every industry, where not every show can be a hit, so some just aspire for mediocrity instead of greatness. (I am assuming you why they are 13 episodes instead of 5 or some other number)

Personally, the term moe show is pretty annoying. Since moe is most commonly defined as a feeling of protectiveness, that means it should be the same as the terms happy show or sad show. The current trend, however, is using moe show as a genre, something I really don't like. "Moe shows" are far better described as sit-coms than moe show. "Moe show" gives the impression that inducing moe is the primary purpose of the show. This hasty generalization really irks me.

[MAR Phantom]

Originally Posted by Kameruka

Not to anime but to its industry itself. I frickin tired to see too many 13 episodes shows flooded the market. Most of them are harem/ecchi/fanservice shows that are never great to begin with. Some of them may good but I don't think they are worth to watch over and over again. Okay, what the most recent harem/fanservice/ecchi shows in past 2 seasons? Kampfer, Nyan-Koi, Omamori Himari, Seikon no Qwaser, Kis x Sis, any Koihime Musou series and list will go on. I don't any of these shows appeal to anyone except some Japanese teenage boys and young men, which obviously their main target audiences. I don't see how they can contribute to the industry except to milk money out from these people. Blame those evil Japanese businessmen and businesswomen for overloading this industry with such craps.

Hmm, i would not say there is too much of moe shows,but too little of everything else.

Ether way, there seems to be some weird atmosphere around the anime and manga industry these few months.
Like some kind of stagnancy and staleness.

[animeboy12]

Originally Posted by MAR Phantom

Hmm, i would not say there is too much of moe shows,but too little of everything else.

Ether way, there seems to be some weird atmosphere around the anime and manga industry these few months.
Like some kind of stagnancy and staleness.

I'd say that western fan are so interested in what Japanese Otakus are watching that they filter out a lot series that aren't moe or ecchi. In the grand scheme of things moe and ecchi are still very much in the minority of what gets produced but whatever reason, they're popular so everyone just floods to them regardless of regardless of their opinion on them

[Marcus H.]

I still have to wonder how people can survive watching anime without a nice mix of serious-themed anime like, for example, Jigoku Shoujo or Hakuouki, without adding some comedy series with it. I, for one, can't, because too much comedy or too much emotions or action would be too bland for me.

[Theowne]

Originally Posted by felix

........

I'll go out on a limb and guess that there has been a spurt of hate-trolling by non-fans on the K-On! forums or something like that, which is probably annoying. I've always kept away from posting negative thoughts on dedicated series threads/subforums, as I've always considered them fan-havens. However, it's hard to read this discussion and not feel like there's some heavy overreaction (lashing back) going on. It certainly seems like you're projecting a certain preconception onto Triple-R and then interpreting everything he says through that, which is a bit unfair/rude.

I also don't think a sentence like "100% concentrated shounen" is really such a bad way to describe something. "Shounen" is a demographic, and shows targeted at similar demographics generally share common traits. So this description probably means that Bleach has a big concentration of those common tropes. It's vague, but unless we're all going to start speaking in assembly code, we'll just have to accept that human languages are vague, and for the most part, they seem to work fine (as evidenced by most of the other posters here).

Originally Posted by felix

Well in the K-on! episode 1 thread there were 11 people who rate it Average or lower and 101 who rated it Good or higher.

Not really important, but I also just wanted to nitpick this point here, as episode threads in series subforums generally reflect the opinions of fans of the show (as mostly they are the ones who visit the subforums), so I don't think the result is particularly meaningful.

[Reckoner]

Quote wars go!

Originally Posted by felix

Not really. Just explain them as withdrawn or use more then one word. If you can't formulate it into english, how did you ever come to understand it to begin with.
That's such a convenient excuse. I don't care if you have some clear idea in your head. If you throw out nonsense, your idea is going to come out as nonsense, regardless of how well you have it thought out in your head. I'm not a mind reader, I can only read what you write.
Actually, I've asked several times here. And I believe this has been [at the very least] implied time and time again in most arguments on this topic.

Alright. Your argument is simply ludicrous. OK, as someone who has family both in the US and in Mexico, I cannot tell you how many times you cannot just express the meaning of a statement or word in either language, particularly Spanish without actually grasping an understanding it by observing others use it in context over and over again.

Really, recluse simply doesn't just do the word hikkomori justice. The term denotes certain nuances and meanings that is hard to replicate through any phrase I can use in the English language. I learned more about the word by reading news stories online, and even seeing shows like "Welcome to the NHK!"

It's the same for moe. The reason it is often so vague is because it's something you really have to understand more than anything. Yes, I can say something like "cute girls doing cute things," but does that really do the term justice? No, and I don't think many people can explain the term that much better. By your logic, I don't think anyone should be able to use the term at all.

Again, there are certain shows that no one doubts the "usage" of moe as being proper such as K-ON! To argue differently is just silly. Because if you do that, I'm going to start arguing that Naruto isn't Shonen, Evangelion isn't a mecha, and that Aria isn't a slice-of-life series.

The point isn't that the show has nothing besides these elements, but that the main selling point of it is one thing, and that it has a clear intention on what audience it is trying to get.

Originally Posted by felix

The problem is partly due to you using a word with no direct equivalent. You called it vague didn't you, so obviously you have no clue what your sentence means either. The other examples you gave are easily replaced in a sentece, so they are more akin to you using some shorthand (ie. NASA instead of National Aeronautics and Space Administration) rather then [in the case of "moe"] a alien word.

I still fail to see your point. If it is vague for you as well, why does anyone use it at all? Why do people use the word GAR, slice-of-life, etc.? We should scrap all these words out and start anew?

Semantics does little to nothing to what you are trying to argue. Unless you believe that "moe" carries a negative connotation, which is absolutely ridiculous by the way, then I don't understand why you even care so much. I can replace all my words with these lesser phrases and words that do injustice to what I'm trying to describe if you would like, but this would probably be in fact worst because then the defining characteristics of the series is squeezed even tighter by a smaller definition.

Originally Posted by felix

Well in the K-on! episode 1 thread there were 11 people who rate it Average or lower and 101 who rated it Good or higher. DVD sales and popularity polls would also suggest there is no overwhelming hating side for the show (at least not statistically) that you speak of. Not that it means much. Your bunch does seem to be the really revolted and noisy on forums about it regardless.

First, did I not already say the series was hugely popular? If you guys were in the minority I doubt people would honestly be hating it that much. It goes against my very reasoning.

Second, if you're trying to grasp the hating fringe of a series, why would you look of all places at a poll in an episode thread of that very series (Where people who like the series in the first place are the ones who are going to be visiting there) on a forum that is already biased enough towards certain genres?

Originally Posted by felix

I'm not too sure about what shows you're referring to. The only shows Kyoani has even made outside the love/psychological/school genre are Munto and FMA. Both of which are done.

When I mentioned the studio, I didn't mention it because people felt they should animate other things, but because the studio is now famous and as result is going to get more attention. Personally, I would vomit if KyoAni decided to apply their animation style to many of my beloved shows.

Originally Posted by felix

*snip*

But lets assume those hopes have some basis [I'm not aware of]. How is it productive to hate on the company for making something profitable? Take a clear example like WoW. Because of its success Blizzard is at the moment producing four games (Cataclysm, Diablo III, Starcraft II and a nextgeneration MMO) whereas they would in the past be producing just one. As I see it, the more success the company has, the better chance for more quantity and better quality.

Incidently (just so the argument doesn't skew into something it shouldn't), the next series that will most likely be produced by Kyoani, [and that we are aware of,] is Nichijou (comedy/school/slice of life manga). So if you had some hope for some sci-fi/shonen/action something, sorry unlikely to happen.

I'm not going to get too much into Blizzard. Profit =/= quality work. I've played all their games, including WOW (I quite WOW after the first expansion came out), and I've just become very disappointed in the company. No can fault them for being successful, but as an original follower of their games I was in love with many of the stories they had built up in their games... Now, the Warcraft Lore was pretty ruined, and the game is pretty much a grind anyways. I spend more of my time these days playing DoTA. I'm hoping SC II will be good, but I also heard that it is disappointing as well. I don't think Blizzard delivers the same sort of excellence it used to but hat's a different subject altogether that I'm not going to go on about.

Anyhow, KyoAni can do whatever the hell they want. But I was just trying to say, with more popularity, you don't only gain more fans, but more haters. That is all really. The same happens with shows like Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece. The same happens with any sort of popular mecha, like Code Geass.

If the haters were the dominant opinion that everyone agreed with (Or non-fans or what have you), then the series wouldn't of been made in the first place.

[james0246]

Personally, I hate when fans refuse to let me hate on shows that they like. It's my god given right to hate anything, and possibly everything, you like, so get use to it!... j/k

(For what it’s worth, I'm of the opinion that the phrase "moe" is inapplicable when describing a specific show (genre, etc), and should only ever be used to describe a character (though I think a compelling argument can be made that "moe" can describe a specific mood or tone...).)

Seriously though, this thread has degenerated even further than the last time I posted here. That just goes to show how silly these "Hate" Threads really are...Maybe I should start an "Aspects of Anime you love to Hate" Thread...wait that's this thread. Okay, how about an "Aspects of Anime you love, but others hate" Thread...1st up, my great love for emotionally driven power-ups in Shounen (or really any demo) anime/manga .

[Roloko vi Britannia]

I despise recaps that is all especially in the middle/after every arc in Reborn or any other series.